When Can We Start Breaking Things?

[Strike For The South]

http://www.theamericanconservative.c...t-of-the-rich/

We meet in the midst of a nation brought to the verge of moral, political, and material ruin. Corruption dominates the ballot-box, the Legislatures, the Congress, and touches even the ermine of the bench. The people are demoralized. … The newspapers are largely subsidized or muzzled, public opinion silenced, business prostrated, homes covered with mortgages, labor impoverished, and the land concentrating in the hands of capitalists. The urban workmen are denied the right to organize for self-protection, imported pauperized labor beats down their wages. … The fruits of the toil of millions are boldly stolen to build up colossal fortunes for a few, unprecedented in the history of mankind, and the possessors of these, in turn, despise the Republic and endanger liberty. From the same prolific womb of governmental injustice we breed the two great classes—tramps and millionaires.

The back of the middle class grows weaker and weaker. I hope the job creators are able to continue using us a stepping stone until they can safely make it to the Bahamas. The rot gut of inequality, which has been the bane of human civilization is rearing its ugly head again. A long and steady uptick of equality and enfranchisement is slowly backsliding into lives that are nasty brutish and short.

Fear is the name of the game today, neighbors are pitted against each other over sexual fetishes while the robber barons make off with 16 trillion dollars. Smokescreens and black noise cloud the fact that we are falling deeper and deeper under the joint yoke of the rich and the government

The saddest part is there is no smoke filled room. It is merley a disconnect between them and us

[a completely inoffensive name]

Is this worse than the Gilded Age? Don't we always have the opportunity to recreate the French Revolution?

[Fragony]

So what if some have so much more. Good for them. I can get by and can still do fun things I don't need that much more, I am satisfied with that.

[a completely inoffensive name]

So what if some have so much more. Good for them. I can get by and can still do fun things I don't need that much more, I am satisfied with that.

I don't think you got the point. Those at the top seem to treat money as a zero sum game and want to walk away holding all of it. You are in the middle class and less people are living your life everyday. Will you say the same when you get kicked out as well?

[Fragony]

I don't think you got the point. Those at the top seem to treat money as a zero sum game and want to walk away holding all of it. You are in the middle class and less people are living your life everyday. Will you say the same when you get kicked out as well?

Economy just isn't doing very fine right now, but I don't mind it that some people are filhy rich, they are not the cause of he problem. People find it unfair that they get tax-cuts but Inthink it's unfair there isn't a cap on the amount of money that can be taxed

[a completely inoffensive name]

Economy just isn't doing very fine right now, but I don't mind it that some people are filhy rich, they are not the cause of he problem. People find it unfair that they get tax-cuts but Inthink it's unfair there isn't a cap on the amount of money that can be taxed

Except they did cause the problem. Rich people looking to sell their bundled up whatevers get other rich people to commit fraud by labeling them as AAA++++ would buy again. Housing meltdown triggering a cascade of other meltdowns as the bubble bursts. Meanwhile the average citizen who never majored in finance doesn't know how to play the stock market and doesn't realize why his bank would give him a loan if he wasn't good for it. All because it's better for the bottom line to have long term debt slavery then for responsible people to get their money, pay it off and be on their way.

[tibilicus]

Economy just isn't doing very fine right now, but I don't mind it that some people are filhy rich, they are not the cause of he problem. People find it unfair that they get tax-cuts but Inthink it's unfair there isn't a cap on the amount of money that can be taxed

They are the exact cause of the problem. They speculate, they gamble and when it all comes crashing down, we foot the bill. Coffee is a naturally produced substance and it has been for millions of years. One day we decided we needed guys to decide how much it's worth though. Guys who could speculate on its wealth and tell us if it was worth more or less. They usually did so for their own gain and if their little game put the price down thus destroying the lives of the suppliers, they didn't care. They were too busy in the City drinking champagne and cheating on their wives who would still adore them like the gods of Mammon we've made them out to be.

As for taxes, it isn't them being taxed too much, its the fact they don't pay tax. This money could have sorted out the budget deficits for this year of numerous nations. The USA only had a deficit of $1.2 trillion whilst the rich hoarded 12 trillion like Smaug the dragon. They expect our stupid consumer society to pay for them. We work jobs we hate so we can buy rubbish we don't need. We give them money and they give us nothing back. They just continue to speculate on our lives. The ultimate aim of any good city boy is to make a heap of money. Not for us but for himself. It is irrelevant how he makes this money. He can lie, cheat, sell his soul, make a pact with the devil and even kill. It doesn't matter. All that matters is he makes money. We are his thralls and we rely on his benevolence as only he can guide our lives to betterment through his economic insights. We sold our souls to morons and they plan to make or lives a misery till we cant give them any more money. Then they'll discard us like their strip club receipts.

[tibilicus]

So what if some have so much more. Good for them. I can get by and can still do fun things I don't need that much more, I am satisfied with that.

You may be comfortable for now. But good for them? You know the same bank which would love to take your house also probably laundered money for Iran or rigged the entire system. You know, that same system we all need to get by? Riddle me this. What do you think would happen to me if I laundered money for an indvidual from a country my country had an embargo against. Would I be sat here now typing this?

I'm glad you're happy with your place in the grand scheme of things. That happiness will stop you really thinking about the guys who cannot fail. They know they can do what they want and act how they want. They truly are above our laws and care nothing for the common sense of humanity. For them its all a game and money is a key component. They've turned our lives into a literal version of Hasbro's Monopoly and its so perverse and disgusting yet well just accept it. IF we get by on a middle income job that seems like our crowning glory before we sink into the see of mediocrity like everyone else. Any hopes of youth we once had replaced with the ideal model of taking it on the chin and getting by. I hope there's more than this. If this is it then whats the point of it all?

[HopAlongBunny]

...They truly are above our laws and care nothing for the common sense of humanity.

For me this is the crux of the matter. Who was charged for the crime of the century? Not that having a scapegoat or two would have actually fixed anything, but at least one might have felt the system wasn't totally broken.

[Papewaio]

You can freely break that which you can repair.

You can do away with something if by doing so improves the situation.

If your system is broken, then fix it. Don't wait for equality or health or wealth to be given. Don't play their game. Define your game and what the stage of life is to you.

Decide what is happiness to you. You need to pursue it with zest and determination. Do as you please, please as you do.

Your choices, your purpose, your life.

[Strike For The South]

You can freely break that which you can repair.

You can do away with something if by doing so improves the situation.

If your system is broken, then fix it. Don't wait for equality or health or wealth to be given. Don't play their game. Define your game and what the stage of life is to you.

Decide what is happiness to you. You need to pursue it with zest and determination. Do as you please, please as you do.

Your choices, your purpose, your life.

This is nothing but empty rhetoric. We are forced into the game, and the carrot we are given is a middle class exsistance, only attainable by the few the system hasn't absolutely destroyed. Just stupid enough to consume while a select few make off like bandits.

They have us chasing a dream of suburbia that is just plausible enough to make us keep our heads down, just stupid enough to shut up and consume.

I do not want to fix the system, I am not some pre pubescent girl trying to find happiness. This is not some meta-crisis brought on by lack of self esteem. I do not need dime store lines about how I shape my destiny.

I want to bring the Sodom down on its head.

[Noncommunist]

This is nothing but empty rhetoric. We are forced into the game, and the carrot we are given is a middle class exsistance, only attainable by the few the system hasn't absolutely destroyed. Just stupid enough to consume while a select few make off like bandits.

They have us chasing a dream of suburbia that is just plausible enough to make us keep our heads down, just stupid enough to shut up and consume.

I do not want to fix the system, I am not some pre pubescent girl trying to find happiness. This is not some meta-crisis brought on by lack of self esteem. I do not need dime store lines about how I shape my destiny.

I want to bring the Sodom down on its head.

Call in fire from heaven and anyone who turns around turns into a pillar of salt?

[naut]

Don't worry Strike, we're only one major food shortage away from global crisis!

So what if some have so much more. Good for them. I can get by and can still do fun things I don't need that much more, I am satisfied with that.

Like the family dog? Content with table scraps and the occasional pat?

[Fragony]

Like the family dog? Content with table scraps and the occasional pat?

They can keep their scraps and pats, I don't mind inequality. I don't think it's unfair that they can buy a 50 million yaght and I can't.

[Major Robert Dump]

Until our government leadership adopts rules akin to insider trading laws, none of this will ever begin to change. It benefits our leaders and the financial sector for the rest of us to be in financial and social rough waters. It aslo benefits the government machine.

All this money given in the bailouts and we really have nothing to show. Instead of letting the businesses fail, a vacuum form and another business rise to meet the demand ... greased palms handed over trillions to the inept business men and women who could not run their own house to begin with, all under the guise of "saving jobs" and "maintaining sector stability."

To me, social issues take a far back burner to issues like the one mentioned above. This is how you unravel the framework of a nation. The mere existence and financial windfall of the Lobby Industry I think speaks volumes of what we are up against.

This is why I am cashing out, removing every penny I have from the US market, and investing (and eventually moving) to another nation. I'm not going to play this game of pretend capitalism anymore, I will go somewhere where the game is self evident, whatever it may be. I just feel like I cannot compete here anymore, for multiple reasons to include abuse by the financial sector, but also including various social and political realities.

**edit: And no, I am not rich nor does my family enjoy anything above a middle working class lifestyle, I am not like the people in the article.

[tibilicus]

Capitalism has always had a vulgar side but since the 1980s its reared its head more frequently. No, I'm not a socialist. I used to vote Conservative before I realised the whole thing was a sham. I will not however be an apologist for guys who make obscene amounts by using the people bellow them with no regard for their livelihoods or economic sustainability. I expect an incoming of vulture capitalists to defend such men so to you I ask, why do you defend those who openly mock you? Why are you working your ass off for a depressingly average existence when the CEO of Barclays can break the law and face no punishment.

Something has got to give if the world is going to work. I despise the state of affairs as they stand. My generation will be burdened with the debts and selfishness of the masses who were duped by the few into thinking they had "never had it so good."

[PanzerJaeger]

Economic equality is a fallacy and the pursuit of such a notion is and will always be a disastrous folly.

[Lemur]

Economic equality is a fallacy and the pursuit of such a notion is and will always be a disastrous folly.

Can you imagine any level of inequality that would be dangerous for social cohesion? Or is that impossible?

[PanzerJaeger]

Can you imagine any level of inequality that would be dangerous for social cohesion? Or is that impossible?

Certainly. The underclass will always envy what the creative class has built. History has shown that the higher the level of perceived economic inequality, the greater the level of social disharmony. This thread is a perfect example. People are railing against Wall Street and unnamed 'speculators' without taking any personal responsibility for their own economic conditions. It is easier to play victim than acknowledge poor choices. Wall Street is powerful in the country because the underclasses willfully hand over their money to the speculators. Everyone was perfectly happy entrusting their financial future to the street until they weren't.

None of that means that I must accept the premise that you and I are inherently equal in our ability to create value or that we should, in fact, enjoy rough economic parity. The differences in our intelligence, work ethic, upbringing and several dozen other individual factors determine our relative success.

See how vapid this statement is?

Yes, because you changed the sentence. I chose my words very carefully.

[Strike For The South]

The creative class? Is that some kind of insane joke?

What is so creative about volleying securities and bundled annuities back and forth so everyone gets a nice piece of the pie?

This is not business, it's extortion.

If we are not going to have a modicum of a social safety net, why play by these rules at all? . Being a citizen means you have certain obligations to the state. these are not being met.

[Lemur]

Certainly. The underclass will always envy what the creative class has built.

Okay, Ms. Rand, and can you imagine any negative outcomes from the "envy" of he "underclasses" for the ubermenschen who are superior to them in every way? Can you express any possible mechanisms for preventing social breakdown?

I worked closely with investment bankers in NYC for eight years. If you think those coked-up whoremongers are the "creative class," you are operating on a different plane of reality. I don't think the add a tenth of the economic value that they claim. And I am not, by any stretch, one of the untermenschen you disdain so airily.

[Montmorency]

Policies that permit continuously increasing economic inequality are business-unfriendly. Some correction is necessary for a stable society.

[Strike For The South]

All elements of American society lose out. Regardless of social stature. When all the money is taken out of the system and hidden under rocks floating in ocean it is no wonder that there is less money for society, individuals, companies and governments to put to use to undertake projects and purchase for their needs. Can we agree that money represents value, of time, of skills, of physical resources. When the money is extracted and not reflected by something of value in the physical world, the value of all else is corroded.

The near entirety of the financial system makes profit on money no one will ever really see

[a completely inoffensive name]

Certainly. The underclass will always envy what the creative class has built.

To me the creative class are the painters, musicians and writers. But to each his own I guess.

History has shown that the higher the level of perceived economic inequality, the greater the level of social disharmony. This thread is a perfect example. People are railing against Wall Street and unnamed 'speculators' without taking any personal responsibility for their own economic conditions. It is easier to play victim than acknowledge poor choices. Wall Street is powerful in the country because the underclasses willfully hand over their money to the speculators. Everyone was perfectly happy entrusting their financial future to the street until they weren't.

None of that means that I must accept the premise that you and I are inherently equal in our ability to create value or that we should, in fact, enjoy rough economic parity. The differences in our intelligence, work ethic, upbringing and several dozen other individual factors determine our relative success.

We don't live in a world where everyone is:

A: On the same level in terms of education
B: On the same level in terms of intelligence

How can you be a coal worker in West Virginia for 8-10 hours a day and find time to a better money manipulator than those whose job it is to do just that, backed with four years of training and knowledge? It is insanity to ask for people to be an expert in anything besides what their job entails.

Of course people make poor choices. This is why we have professional politicians instead of a direct democracy. There can never be a society of enlightened individuals who all make it work out for themselves because see points A and B above. What needs to happen is to make sure that the public is protected from it's own ignorance to prevent a total capsize of the economy. It's not even about harmony and equality here, it's about social stability, which is what others here are stressing. We all saw what happens when you let banks give loans to any schmuck who walks in the door, the public enslaves itself with debt, whether it be student or credit card or what have you.

[gaelic cowboy]

Okay, Ms. Rand, and can you imagine any negative outcomes from the "envy" of he "underclasses" for the ubermenschen who are superior to them in every way? Can you express any possible mechanisms for preventing social breakdown?

I worked closely with investment bankers in NYC for eight years. If you think those coked-up whoremongers are the "creative class," you are operating on a different plane of reality. I don't think the add a tenth of the economic value that they claim. And I am not, by any stretch, one of the untermenschen you disdain so airily.

I can imagine two things that PJ posts about in the plus column which are actually hurt by his lauding of extreme economic darwinism.

1: Gay Americans

Gays are getting it in the neck because of the toxic alliance of religion and politicians who are of course in the pocket of Wall Street. This religious drum banging targets education and science and my belief is that it's to achieve reformation of the same, this reformation is not really about education but about allowing more rent seeking by Wall Street.

In return for tossing a few middle eastern cultural baubles to the priests the Wall street clergy control education so they can better shape the future consumer.

2: The American millitary

The armed forces get it on multiple fronts in terms of cuts to services both during and after people have served, apparently veterans are heroes right up until the moment there tossed on the scrap heap. This degradation is exacerbated naturally by rent seekers in the form of Haliburton and XE, these leeches couldn't and wouldn't exist without billions of public money.

Rent seeking in the military means more wars to acquire resources for wall Street and this will lead to more terrorism on Americans.





Basically we have a few million of leeches worldwide unthinkingly spreading an environment conducive to them. What really scares me is that it's not a conspiracy at all at all but merely millions of self interested actions.

The only force these people really fear is government or man on the street springing to mass action, so i'm guessing they feel pretty safe cos they have captured both religion and politics which is enough to quieten the man on the street. (generally)

[naut]

This thread is a perfect example. People are railing against Wall Street and unnamed 'speculators' without taking any personal responsibility for their own economic conditions.

As a 22 year old who had never paid tax or voted or earned a real pay-check until after the the GFC what choices have I made? What franchises, of money or of votes, have I had at my disposal to make or influence the current situation what it is? The only choice I have made is that I was too busy being a child physically and intellectually to have any impact on the poop-storm the last generation decided I should have to live through.

[tibilicus]

Certainly. The underclass will always envy what the creative class has built. History has shown that the higher the level of perceived economic inequality, the greater the level of social disharmony. This thread is a perfect example. People are railing against Wall Street and unnamed 'speculators' without taking any personal responsibility for their own economic conditions. It is easier to play victim than acknowledge poor choices. Wall Street is powerful in the country because the underclasses willfully hand over their money to the speculators. Everyone was perfectly happy entrusting their financial future to the street until they weren't.

None of that means that I must accept the premise that you and I are inherently equal in our ability to create value or that we should, in fact, enjoy rough economic parity. The differences in our intelligence, work ethic, upbringing and several dozen other individual factors determine our relative success.



Yes, because you changed the sentence. I chose my words very carefully.

Everything you just said is rubbish. Own failings? Why is youth unemployment so high in my country then? We had a generational believing we all needed degrees and a high standard of education and we did, for the most part, as we were told. There's no jobs for us though. As in literally none exist. Tell me why no one will give us jobs. I've worked months on end for companies for free all so I could add "job experience". There still isn't a job for me. I was encouraged to go back and do some more work for free. You know someone of my skill working at my last unpaid job at a company would have saved the company something like £5000 for that period? We're all stupid enough to do it though because we'd happily stab our brethren in the back and push them under the tracks for a chance to have a job.

You equate the broken system with jealousy. I really hope you wake up one day to having no future like the mass majority of young people I know. I hope you look out onto the world and see every door closed because the guy who got the job knew someone who worked there. That you too post applications for jobs you're too qualified for only to be told yup, you are too qualified we'd much prefer the guy who will stick with us and be happy to take our crap for the rest of his life. And finally that everything you were told since the age of 15 about how the world works and how the best way to better yourself was all one big lie. It remains it isn't what you know but who you know. A generation of our most talented young people continue to go to waste because of nepotism. This said nepotism I feel is an integral part of the broken world we live in.

You cannot perceived these things though can you? Why, because you're part of the selfish generation. Your one of the guys that left all this mess for my generation to clear up. You were happy for governments to spend, the rich to get richer and for taxes to remain low whilst everything around you slowly but surely fell apart. Then when you got the chance, your "deficit cutting programs" and "debt reduction schemes" were to be paid off by guess who? That's right, people my age. You simultaneously took advantage of big government spending, low taxes, get quick rich schemes and, even a big welfare state. Now you vote to takeaway the same things for my generation. It's like you all had one big party and ran up a huge bar tab then on your way out left the receipt for the quiet guy minding his own business at the end of the bar to pay.

You embody this nature in the tone of your above post. And for that, I ask you this. Has a single generation in modern history ever been as selfish as yours? You systematically expected certain things and fed the corporate pig and now you vote to take away the few perks it gave us in favor of more government full of rich kids and more power to the guys who shoveled most of this misery on us in the first place. You say I'm envious but you seem to grasp I just despise being in a hopeless situation whereas the guys who caused all this continue to drink champagne to my misfortune.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Can you imagine any level of inequality that would be dangerous for social cohesion? Or is that impossible?

He's deflecting - he's taking Strike's complaint about extreme inequality of opportunity and making it about inequality of outcome.

Certainly. The underclass will always envy what the creative class has built. History has shown that the higher the level of perceived economic inequality, the greater the level of social disharmony. This thread is a perfect example. People are railing against Wall Street and unnamed 'speculators' without taking any personal responsibility for their own economic conditions. It is easier to play victim than acknowledge poor choices. Wall Street is powerful in the country because the underclasses willfully hand over their money to the speculators. Everyone was perfectly happy entrusting their financial future to the street until they weren't.

None of that means that I must accept the premise that you and I are inherently equal in our ability to create value or that we should, in fact, enjoy rough economic parity. The differences in our intelligence, work ethic, upbringing and several dozen other individual factors determine our relative success.

Yes, because you changed the sentence. I chose my words very carefully.

Wall Street are not "the creative class" they are merchants, merchants buy and sell goods made by others and take a cut of the profits. You employ a merchant to sell your goods because you calculate that even after he takes his cut you will still be better off than if you had tried to sell yourself. Wall Street traders belong to the same economic class as Record Producers.

The true "creative class" are engineers, software developers, inventors, and also artists and artisans - these are the people who create salable products - the middle class. Below them you have the working class, manual labourers, lumberjacks, miners, farmers, and also people like truck drivers and merchant sailors, and also the manual elements of the service sector who wait tables and get you your coffee.

The current problem stems from the overblown % cut the merchants are taking from the producers, and just keeping and not even spending.

[Strike For The South]

Civil equality is a fallacy and the pursuit of such a notion is and will always be a disastrous folly.

See how vapid this statement is?

Hell, I am not even speaking about equality

[Strike For The South]

The entire system us set up to be divisive.

The guy making 250k really is not that much different than the guy making 40k. Sure the former may have a nicer house, car, and various trinkets but those are really just like kneepads to make this whole thing go down a tad easier.