Trying to explain the level of feminist idiocy that control Sweden...

[Kadagar_AV]

A short petite woman working as prison guard got attacked by one of the inmates, a big burly man sent to prison for violence. The person in the control room, another female prison guard, broke protocol and ran down with her baton drawn. The inmate grabbed the baton and went on to kill the first female guard.

That is the short version of what happened.

Now, some days ago, a Swedish actor while interviewed blamed the death on this woman on the modern Swedish feminism. The combined Swedish press of course jumped on this actor, competing in how best to ridicule him. All the while politicians and people famous on Twitter or whatever struggled frantically in how to best distance themselves from this Rogue.

Let us put aside what this say about the debate climate and rampant political dualism in Sweden, and focus on the matter at hand.


I also blame feminism!

My point is absolutely, ABSOLUTELY not that a woman should not work in a prison. Had it been a buff Ogre woman who got killed I wouldn't have cared as much or blamed it on feminism. But it was not a buff Ogre woman, it was a petite young girl.

From my perspective, men very simply have something women does NOT seem to have. The very simple but effective male code, played out over a mans entire upbringing each and every time he interacts with another man.


A guy who was 1,60 tall and weighted in at 45 or so kilos, would simply never come up with the idea to work with violent criminals. When he was 7 he would have noted that other men were better at football, and to fit into the team he will start taking a supportive role on the field, passing the ball to someone physically better than going for making the goal himself.

Growing up, he will be gently led by society in a way that is so natural after eons of male interactions that we no longer think of it.

"Maybe Tribal tattoo's isnt your style?"
"Let me help You carry that one!"
"You are so smart, You should work with numbers!"

This guy would have been mildly but clearly led away from a career working with violent male criminals.


Again, I have absolutely nothing against women working in prisons, but before the women do, they need to sort out their damn intra-female-guidance system!!

Because, if a petite girl goes through her upbringing getting patted in the back for ideas leading up to her being broken, mangled and very much dead on a prison floor while a big psychotic man is standing over her with a baton that the other female prison guard provided, something has gone wrong.


But here is the annoying bit, to talk about this is 100% absolutely impossible in the political climate we have over here. You will come off as a pariah, while I after having spent some short years abroad found that enough to notice that it is Sweden who is a political pariah on the international political stage.


So I agree with this Swedish actor, and I see this woman as a casualty for modern Swedish feminism.

And I again stress that my main gripe isn't that something crazy like this happened, my main gripe is that something crazy like this happens and everyone is supposed to look the other way like nothing is wrong. I just find it so hard with this elephant in the room...

[Fragony]

Pretty idiotic. Sweden is pretty good example of taking it too far, I am a sucker for women's rights but they are never furiously demanding equal rights for carrying bricks or swiping the streets. That actor is a boss.

[Sir Moody]

I am struggling to see what Feminism has to do with this case?

Was there a major Feminist movement for allowing Female Prison Officers?

or is it just that it involves Women working where you don't think they should (despite repeatable claiming you had no problem with it)?

frankly this case speaks more to a failing in the Prison system in general - why was a dangerous prisoner only escorted by one Guard (I have a friend who works in a Prison over here and with Violent prisoners Guards always work in pairs) - while the results may not have been quite so serious with a Male guard, all it takes is one good knock and the guard is helpless

additionally can you provide a link to the article - all the articles i can find say she was beaten with her OWN baton and don't mention a second guard at all

[Beskar]

tl;dr version.
A man beats woman with baton, it is the fault of feminism in Sweden.

There is a disconnect going on here..

[Kadagar_AV]

I'm not sure it's official that the other female guard broke protocol, I know some people working there and got the information from them..

My gripe is that there is a major feministic movement completely ignoring any and all differences between the sexes, and who go to great extremes to mock and ridicule anyone opposing this.

Again, my problem isn't that a woman worked there... Had the first prison guard been a big burly woman who could defend herself somewhat, and the one supposed to protect her a big woman with a baton that knew how to use it, I would see absolutely no problems with it.

But this wasn't the case.

EDIT: found it

[Fragony]

tl;dr version.
A man beats woman with baton, it is the fault of feminism in Sweden.

There is a disconnect going on here..

There are some gender roles that Sweden just won't accept. Men are stronger than women, but good luck saying that in Sweden they will claw out our eyeballs.

[Kadagar_AV]

There are some gender roles that Sweden just won't accept. Men are stronger than women, but good luck saying that in Sweden they will claw out our eyeballs.

I've been starred at like I came from Mars for daring to mention that the male National team in hockey might be better than the female National team.

[Strike For The South]

Can the man use this as a valid defense?

What if he had beaten to death a really weak man? Would it be the patriarchies fault for forcing that boy into a physical, dangerous profession?

[Kadagar_AV]

Can the man use this as a valid defense?

He's pretty psychotic... He politly apoligized to the corpse just after... I think he's a "keeper" for our justice system, so to say.



EDIT: As to your edit, as is the case that wasn't the case. So kind of a moot point.

[Fragony]

I've been starred at like I came from Mars for daring to mention that the male National team in hockey might be better than the female National team.

They are going to hate this, our hockey team was the most attractive. And won gold.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAsj...e_gdata_player

[Fisherking]

I would be more inclined to say that it is the feminization of Swedish Government than feminism that is to blame.

I saw an article on the subject. Obviously their regulations did not permit a proper response to the attack.

All those feel good regulations got a woman killed. When a man showed up the guy went to his knees before anyone got close to him. If the first responder had clotted him upside the head the girl might still be alive.

http://www.danielhammarberg.com/2011...-blows-landed/

[Strike For The South]

He's pretty psychotic... He politly apoligized to the corpse just after... I think he's a "keeper" for our justice system, so to say.



EDIT: As to your edit, as is the case that wasn't the case. So kind of a moot point.

At my heaviest I could have thrown a 150 pound man around as easily as a 115 pound woman. Your main line of argument seems to be that feminism emboldened her to the point, where she thought she could do a mans job. You then claim that her murder is the at least partially to blame on this mentality.

You contradict yourself when you say that a heavier woman would have been more suitable, this, already is a merit based system.

You seem to take more of an issue with the fact that she was so small, rather than her just being a woman.

[Sarmatian]

Logic that it would have been far less likely to happen had that big, burly inmate been facing an equally big and burly prison guard is not unsound.

The next logical step would be to ask why a petite woman was allowed to work in place where a big, burly man was required.

If by simply asking you end up being ridiculed "just because women should have equal job opportunities as men", than it is a feminist issue.

Some things just can't be genderless. No one wants to hire me to work in a mini skirt on an auto show. It's just how things work.

[Kadagar_AV]

They are going to hate this, our hockey team was the most attractive. And won gold.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAsj...e_gdata_player

Ah, sorry... I meant icehockey... Few countries care about land hockey, but kudos for the hot team!!

*I just got this pleasant image of The Swedish male vs female National team on the National rink, stadium filled with feminists watching women getting tackled left to right, shooting through the plexi-glass full speed taking out the top tiers of the Feminist Party...*

I know the female team met a junior club from one of the Stockholm suburbs, and lost 16-0. And the kids had to be told off for not tackling them to hard, as they risked injuries the damsels.

Funny enough, that was the first and last time the female national team did one of these training matches... Hadn't been as good for team morale as they had expected.

Just a side note, and yes I am venting.

[Greyblades]

Personally I'm surprised that anyone who isnt bult like an ox or given military training is either willing to be/allowed into such a perilous job. Also shouldnt they have had tazers or something a bit more apropriate to take crazed murderers than a baton?

[rvg]

Well, it sounds like good old Darwin is handling the problem just fine.

[Strike For The South]

Well, it sounds like good old Darwin is handling the problem just fine.

What the hell does this even mean?

New Rule: I am the only one who can post something under 20 words, the rest of you are terrible at humor

[Vuk]

At my heaviest I could have thrown a 150 pound man around as easily as a 115 pound woman. Your main line of argument seems to be that feminism emboldened her to the point, where she thought she could do a mans job. You then claim that her murder is the at least partially to blame on this mentality.

You contradict yourself when you say that a heavier woman would have been more suitable, this, already is a merit based system.

You seem to take more of an issue with the fact that she was so small, rather than her just being a woman.

People should be able to get the job based on merit. Of course feminists argue that it is unfair that these jobs are held mostly by men, who are generally much bigger and stronger. They say that women on average are just as capable as men for these jobs, and should have equal representation in traditionally male dominated jobs that rely on strength and generally have some amount of danger involved. They are therefore saying that you physical abilities should not be taken into account. If you do take it into account and hire based on merit, those jobs will continue to be held by men.

Also, there is more than just size to be taken into account. When I studied martial arts, every single woman I sparred with was much more timid than the men. We had a woman there who was built like an ox and nearly 6 feet tall. She was bigger and stockier than the average guy. I sparred guys there much smaller than her and far more her junior in TKD, and they could take my hard kicks through their armour. When I sparred her once, she had to stop after 5 punches to the floating ribs, as he abs were spasming and she could not breathe.

Even the stockier women who are into martial arts have (in my experience) been more timid, and not able to handle nearly the same amount of abuse that much smaller and less skilled men were able to.

When discussing women serving in the military it is frequently brought up that a woman can easily use a gun. Maybe that is so, but it doesn't apply here. When things get hairy, they get physical and close. I don't think I would ever hire a woman for a job like that, even if she was large and had martial arts or military experience. I wouldn't do it because I don't think it is proper, but for the same reason I would not hire a particularly small man, a man with a physical disability, or an unskilled man: because I don't want them to die. (or other people to die because they cannot do their job)
You may think that is sexist of me, but I don't care. If I was an employer, I wouldn't want to get people killed so I wouldn't be called a sexist.

[rvg]

... I don't think I would ever hire a woman for a job like that, even if she was large and had martial arts or military experience. I wouldn't do it because I don't think it is proper, but for the same reason I would not hire a particularly small man, a man with a physical disability, or an unskilled man: because I don't want them to die. (or other people to die because they cannot do their job).

Yep, that's it. They can pass all the laws they want, but those laws won't change reality. People used to understand that.

Reality has been pretty simple: a big psychotic man can snap a petite lil lady like a twig. No law is going to change that reality. The very fact that that girl chose to ignore reality so that she can take advantage of the law doesn't paint her as the sharpest tool in the shed. Sadly, but unsurprisingly she was removed from the gene pool. Darwin wins again.

[Vuk]

Yep, that's it. They can pass all the laws they want, but those laws won't change reality. People used to understand that.

Reality has been pretty simple: a big psychotic man can snap a petite lil lady like a twig. No law is going to change that reality. The very fact that that girl chose to ignore reality so that she can take advantage of the law doesn't paint her as the sharpest tool in the shed. Sadly, but unsurprisingly she was removed from the gene pool. Darwin wins again.

That is a dark and pretty sick way to look at it. It is not her fault if she was brainwashed by a faulty education system and media. That is their fault.

[rvg]

That is a dark and pretty sick way to look at it. It is not her fault if she was brainwashed by a faulty education system and media. That is their fault.

Life oftentimes is "dark and pretty sick." As for whose fault it is, both are at fault. The society for creating a stupid law and the girl for using the law instead of using her head.

[Sir Moody]

seriously you guys are all totally nuts...

you doing exactly what Horetore did in the Anti-Semitism thread! jumping at the first chance to get at what you hate (in his case the right wing)

there is no freaking link to Feminism in this, hell the OP actually agreed that some women are suited for Prison work - which is the feminist stance ironically - Feminists are not about replacing men in the work force just for the hell of it - Feminism is about giving Women the CHANCE to compete in the work force on merit rather than excluding them purely because they aren't men -

what you all should be raging about is Prison policy - a policy that allowed a prisoner (who clearly was deranged) to be alone with ANY guard - Male or Female

as I said before (and was totally ignored) you just don't do that - all it takes is one surprise knock to the head and ANYONE is in danger

seriously get off your high horses...

[Kadagar_AV]

seriously you guys are all totally nuts...

you doing exactly what Horetore did in the Anti-Semitism thread! jumping at the first chance to get at what you hate (in his case the right wing)

there is no freaking link to Feminism in this, hell the OP actually agreed that some women are suited for Prison work - which is the feminist stance ironically - Feminists are not about replacing men in the work force just for the hell of it - Feminism is about giving Women the CHANCE to compete in the work force on merit rather than excluding them purely because they aren't men -

what you all should be raging about is Prison policy - a policy that allowed a prisoner (who clearly was deranged) to be alone with ANY guard - Male or Female

as I said before (and was totally ignored) you just don't do that - all it takes is one surprise knock to the head and ANYONE is in danger

seriously get off your high horses...

I think my gripe isn't as much what happened, but rather the abuse someone got who argued that this was wrong and should not have happened. Had the media had some sort of balanced, letting different opinions be heard, I would have no issue with it.

However, two issues are in Sweden completely impossible to talk about: Feminism and immigration.

If you say ANYTHING that resembles criticism towards women s ability in any field, what so ever, you are Satan and must repent and die. If you say ANYTHING that resembles criticism towards immigration, the same.

I just lack a debate.

We are probably the WORLDS most feminist country, would it not be worth discussing the pro's and con's of it?
We accept more immigrants than any other European country (per capita), should we not discuss the pro's and con's of that either?

These questions are pillars in Sweden's political life, kind of like Gunbortion is in the states. The difference is that we by and large have pretty much every party on one side in the debate, and a wall of hurt hitting you from media on the other side of the debate.

Not very constructive.

[Vuk]

seriously you guys are all totally nuts...

you doing exactly what Horetore did in the Anti-Semitism thread! jumping at the first chance to get at what you hate (in his case the right wing)

there is no freaking link to Feminism in this, hell the OP actually agreed that some women are suited for Prison work - which is the feminist stance ironically - Feminists are not about replacing men in the work force just for the hell of it - Feminism is about giving Women the CHANCE to compete in the work force on merit rather than excluding them purely because they aren't men -

what you all should be raging about is Prison policy - a policy that allowed a prisoner (who clearly was deranged) to be alone with ANY guard - Male or Female

as I said before (and was totally ignored) you just don't do that - all it takes is one surprise knock to the head and ANYONE is in danger

seriously get off your high horses...

No, I am not nuts. Women should not be doing work like that in a prison that has male prisoners. I don't think women should be allowed in that type of work, not because they are not men, but because they are not nearly as well suited to it. I doubt that even a very tough, skilled woman would be as good as the average guy who gets hired there. So based on the merit of their body-types, I think they should not do work like that. Not because they should be punished, but because hiring for jobs like that have to based on a candidates performance potential. Yeah, a guy could be taken by surprise as well, but he would have a heck of a better chance staying alive.

[Montmorency]

Had it been a buff Ogre woman who got killed I wouldn't have cared as much or blamed it on feminism. But it was not a buff Ogre woman, it was a petite young girl.

Hehe, this could be interpreted in a way you perhaps didn't intend. Or did you?

They are therefore saying that you physical abilities should not be taken into account.

Sounds like they're saying bulky women should be encouraged to apply for prison security posts.

[Kadagar_AV]

Hehe, this could be interpreted in a way you perhaps didn't intend. Or did you?



Sounds like they're saying bulky women should be encouraged to apply for prison security posts.

LOL Monty, I didn't see it at first... But yeah, could def be interpreted in a way I didn't intend.


I do NOT think women should never ever by any chance work with male violent prisoners. I met a Captain in the Swedish Armed Forces, female, who could easily kick my behind. She had a good few inches and pounds on me as well. I would feel more than safe letting her handle violent male criminals, well, not more than safe, but as safe as if it was a man.

But again, the girl who died was... MINUSCULE. And it's only a society hell bent on putting women's liberation before what is sane who allowed it.

[rory_20_uk]

That women went for the job. She knew the risks. She died. End of story. Soldiers are dying in Afghanistan all the time. Some jobs have the risk of violent death.

Perhaps some systems need to relf-regulate: when all the petite women in these jobs have either died or left due to the risk of death then death rates will decrease. I see no need to regulate things. Feminism should be about equal opportunities, not outcomes.

[Kralizec]

Logic that it would have been far less likely to happen had that big, burly inmate been facing an equally big and burly prison guard is not unsound.

The next logical step would be to ask why a petite woman was allowed to work in place where a big, burly man was required.

If by simply asking you end up being ridiculed "just because women should have equal job opportunities as men", than it is a feminist issue.

Some things just can't be genderless. No one wants to hire me to work in a mini skirt on an auto show. It's just how things work.

This about sums up my thoughts.

However, if Swedish prisons would also hire a male midget with no muscles as a guard, then it's not a gender issue.

[Paltmull]

Blaming this on feminism is quite a long-shot. The cause for the incident was lacking routines. Noone, regardless of sex or physical strength should have been left alone with such a dangerous prisoner. To say that a strong man would have had a better chance of survival in that situation is not a good argument, because such a situation should never have been allowed to occur in the first place.

[Andres]

Allthough I don't necessarily agree with Kadagar's opinion, I understand his frustration that simply having a viewpoint that is not "the accepted viewpoint" creates an entire mediastorm. Kudos to that actor for voicing his opinion regardless of him knowing what reaction he would get. If more people did this, then eventually, it will be possible to have the normal debate Kadagar is craving for in Sweden.

That said, the woman did the job she wanted to do. I'm sure she knew and accepted the risks.

Before jumping to conclusions that her gender and stature played a role:

1) Are there numbers on this, statistics? How many prison guards were killed or seriously injured by convicts during their job in the last 10 to 15 years; how many of them were male and how many female? It's impossible to draw conclusions out of this one incident simply because the victim was a small woman.
2) If somebody is to blame, then I think it's whoever invented the prison policy. One guard for such dangerous a convict, and he wasn't even handcuffed?

From the article Fisherking linked to:

1. The man asks to get to go for a smoke. He’s allowed to enter the elevator alone and head up there, with Karen arriving moments later.
2. In the immediate area, another female guard is also present, though whether she’s present when the man walks outside or not is unclear.
3. Now he’s alone with Karen, with her unarmed. She turns to unlock the door, and then he attacks from behind, hitting her repeatedly as she falls to the ground.
4. The other female guard catches notice of what’s going on; she grabs her nightstick and runs there to intervene. Due to prison regulations, guards aren’t allowed to strike at an inmate’s head with the nightstick, however, hence she hits him on the arm instead.
5. Erik appears unfazed by this strike and instead snatches the nightstick from her and uses it to keep beating on Karen. Before it’s over, he’s hit her with over 40+ blows, and she’s only got 15 minutes left of her life.
6. After a couple of minutes, male officers appear, with him getting on his knees to willingly surrender before they even reach him. Later medical examination showed that he appeared to have broken his right hand in the process of beating up Karen.

Unarmed? And the other guard not allowed to hit him on the head? I think most men would have gotten a good beating as well, in this particular incident. What kind of an idiot lets his personnel alone and unarmed with a dangerous, psychotic convict? I'm pretty sure the same could've happened to a male guard; after all, he attacked her from behind when she turned around.

Also from FisherKings' article:

To an American audience, it might appear somewhat strange for a skinny university graduate to start work at a jail, but the penal philosophy in Sweden is based on communication and understanding. It’s believed that by maintaining a dialogue with the clientele behind bars, one can avoid violent confrontations.

That's all nice and well, but can't you at least be prepared in case it doesn't work out as intended? Isn't it possible to maintain a dialogue but still keep in mind the safety of the guards, like, I don't know, giving them a taser, or write in your regulations that for the dangerous types, like this fellow, you always need two or three guards to accompany them?