Ottoman Bombard and Da Vinci's Cannons

**HeroSK** · 09-07-2012, 09:40

Hi all,

I am a huge Da Vinci fan and this question is in mind for a long period of time. Here the picture of Ottomans famous Dardanelles gun that is casted at 1464 and believed that the building manner is same as cannons used to pound the walls of Constantinopole in 1453.

Here the drawings of Da Vinci (1452 – 1519) that shows some cannons very similar to those Ottoman bombards ;

So the following questions arise, Did Da Vinci had a chance to see those cannons or he drow that ones just from his mind ? Why they are so similar ? Were this type of cannons common ? Is there any other examples similar to those cannons ?

Thanks in advance

**Kagemusha** · 09-08-2012, 19:54

A really tough question. I am no expert of life of Da Vinci, so i cant comment about what Da Vinci used as base for his drawings. Nevertheless, im quite sure there werent many ways to cast a Bronze cannon/ mortar to begin with. So the barrels should have been quite similar everywhere. I hope someone with more knowledge about the issue might have more information about the details.

**HeroSK** · 09-09-2012, 10:24

Thank you for answering. I was starting to losing hope.

The point is they are not ordinary cannons. Some specifications such as square holes and screw are distinct parts. I failed to find any medieval manuscript or drawing that indicates cannons with these properties. If anyone could be able to do so please share. In many medieval drawings European cannons have plain barrels with some rings on them and this construction seems quite common. Like below picture;

In case of screw construction, there are some rumors and thoughts but I could not reach some medieval descriptions or accounts.

**Kagemusha** · 09-09-2012, 11:58

I was able to find this picture:

It suggests that the square holes might have had something to do with locking the two pieces together. So the construction seems different from the construction shown in Leonardo´s sketches. Apparently at the time the siege cannons that were used against the walls of Constantinopole. The barrels were still so primitive that one needed a such huge enclosure on the other end of the barrel in order to get the projectile to shoot on the right direction from the barrel.

I hope this helps.

**HeroSK** · 09-09-2012, 12:46

Those holes could be used to screw together two parts of cannon by putting rods into square holes and pulling opposite directions while cannon is hanging on a frame. It seems that was one reason for that holes.

Other reason is for mowing such huge pieces as Leonardo pointed out in his drawings. Putting cannon pieces on carts, or altering their direction would be much easier with some ropes through holes and a frame above.

Apart form this, Cannons that are common in Europe are different from Ottoman bombard as you can see in the picture below. They are built in different manner. This specific type of Ottoman cannon is mysteriously only noted in work of Leonardo. I am trying to figure out how they are connected. :)

**Zarakas** · 09-10-2012, 04:32

My question is, where did the Ottomans get their cannons from?? Did they design and manufacture them??

Their may be a connection with the West?? Hence Da Vinci.

**Arjos** · 09-10-2012, 09:38

Originally Posted by Zarakas

My question is, where did the Ottomans get their cannons from?? Did they design and manufacture them??

Their may be a connection with the West?? Hence Da Vinci.

Pretty sure it was an hungarian that built those cannons for the siege of 1453...

**HeroSK** · 09-10-2012, 11:51

Originally Posted by Zarakas

My question is, where did the Ottomans get their cannons from?? Did they design and manufacture them??

Their may be a connection with the West?? Hence Da Vinci.

Da vinci had born 1452. The gun in the first picture was built in 1464 by Munir Ali, one of Ottoman gun master. Siege of Constantinople was at 1453. With all those in our minds it is clear that Da vinci got the knowledge of those cannons after Ottomans. Maybe he got information from eyewitness of siege or some scientists managed to escape from Constantinople.

If such design is common in European arsenal why they are not mentioned in somewhere else? As you can see in the picture in my previous post European canons are different. The point is there are no pictures or mention of screwed cannons with some square holes. Was this design special to Ottomans?

Arjos is right, in siege of Constantinople, it is widely known that the largest piece is built by Hungarian gun master Urban (Orban) and others by Ottoman gun masters such as Saruca Pasha and Architect Muslihiddin. The last surviving example of that cannons is the Munir Ali's piece built after siege to protect Dardanelles. If this design had came from Europe particularly from Hungary, there must be some sources of drawings mentioning them which we lack.

While searching deep into net, I found a Russian blog and translated it by google. In the article it is comparing famous Tsar gun(cast in 1586) and the Ottoman bombard. Here picture of Tsar cannon. I quickly noticed the square holes at ends of gun but interestingly they are not hollow and filled with some flower figures. The interesting thing is cannon has some parts for lifting thus I assume it is not need to have holes but they are there. Maybe they are filled after it is placed on cart. However, Tsar gun is cast in one piece while Ottoman guns are cast in two piece and screwed together for shooting.