rvg, some couple of years later?

[Kadagar_AV]

I just noticed my sig, I have had it for... YEARS...

"Occasionally, we have to break our own rules and go against our principles in order to save those principles. Certain situations warrant that."
- rvg

I picked that as my sig because... it was the most stupid thing I had heard an american say. At the time, You were defending going into Iraq to get the Weapons Of Mass Destruction, and You were defending going into Afghanistan to catch Bin Laden.

What I wonder is... What do You think now?

It actually scared me that You not only supported the reason for the wars, but supported the torture and **** that came along with it, with the defense posted in my signature.

I for one will never agree to that belief. If USA go against Your own rules and principles to defend them, how can the rest of the world tell You are the righteous ones?

And if You go torturing people because of a war based on false assumptions of WMD's, can't You understand the rest of the world get... Shocked?

I thought about changing signature, but then... Have you changed?

[Sasaki Kojiro]

We never tortured anyone. That's no better than a conspiracy theory.

[Kadagar_AV]

We never tortured anyone. That's no better than a conspiracy theory.

Agreed.

But only if waterboarding, skateboarding and snowboarding is seen as pretty much equally fun.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Agreed.

But only if waterboarding, skateboarding and snowboarding is seen as pretty much equally fun.

I heard we made someone go snowbearding 183 times and he broke his leg each time. And to think we hung swedes for doing that to our soldiers in the great lutefisk wars of the 1920's.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

LOL, we never tortured anyone?

Rumsfeld and Co. most certainly did.

Conspiracy theorist! I accuse you.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Common knowledge, man. Rumsfeld personally authorized all of the 'enhanced interrogation techniques' we used between 2001 - 2008. For all I know, we still use many of them.

Many things are "common knowledge". Your second sentence is true but irrelevant.

[Kadagar_AV]

All fun and games?

1
2
3

[Sasaki Kojiro]

All fun and games?

That's not "the usa".

Oh my god, you're serious? Hang on, I'll be back with reading material.

Conspiracy type theories about the government and police are extremely common in our culture. Our nation was founded by delusional conspiracy theorists. It's write in the declaration of independence.

[Kadagar_AV]

That's not "the usa".

It sure is the only USA I know of...

[Sasaki Kojiro]

I appreciate that, but there's no conspiracy here--unless you count the former SecDef and friends.

As it became obvious that we were going to need to detain and interrogate many thousands of individuals over the course of the GWOT, a famous 'Torture Memo' was drawn up. This was not some beaurocratic one-off, this was a calculated attempt to avoid being charged with war crimes. That's it. Change the name all you want, its still freaking torture.

http://www.nytimes.com/ref/internati...EMO-GUIDE.html

Yes I've heard this stuff. I'm sure they didn't want to be charged with war crimes (hardly an accusation of them) but they also didn't want to do anything immoral. They kept far short of immoral. Change the name all you want, it isn't torture.

The conspiracy is the pervasive tendency to believe that anything that is leaked is the truth, that the government is always trying to cover up wrongs, etc. CIA conspiracy theories are one of the most common types.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Waterboarding is torture and we definitely waterboarded.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Waterboarding is torture and we definitely waterboarded.

Very circular, I congratulate you.

Are you still being serious?

Did you even read that?

Holy jesus man, did you ever think maybe these theories are so prevalent because some of the worst few are actually true!? You probably think the CIA never distributed crack in california, or tested LSD on prison inmates. What do you think of the Iran-Contras? The list is so long, it is actually harder to find credible conspiracy theories that aren't true.

What would "credible but not true" be? Heck there's probably thousands. It's the go to boogie man for many people. But this is just an aside and off topic.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Off-topic and aside whatever, you brought it up.

According to you, we never tortured anyone. This is patently untrue, unless you narrow the definition of torture to something as specific as 'Cutting off parts of you until you die.'

I think your problem (and the problem with many Americans) is that you are personally affronted when someone suggests that our government has done some seriously bad stuff. Try and remember that all governments have done really bad stuff, and that you are not a reflection of your government, and perhaps it might help you.

Not at all, I believed it when they first talked about it and was raised un-patriotic. Still not especially patriotic, the US has done a bunch of terrible stuff starting with the revolution, but I can see that the torture stuff is nonsense.

You guys basically agree with this?:

KING: Bachmann, Cain, Perry there. The Romney campaign said after the debate he does not consider waterboarding to be torture.

What did you make of that, Senator?

MCCAIN: I'm disappointed. Ask any military lawyer, ask any person who knows about the Geneva Conventions that we're signatories to. We actually prosecuted Japanese war criminals specifically for the act of waterboarding against Americans.

And just two additional points, John.

One, it doesn't work. If you put enough physical pain on somebody, they will tell you whatever they think that you want to hear in order to -- for the pain to stop.

[Montmorency]

Sasaki is a gangstalker.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

What's your point? We waterboarded people, this is a fact. That McCain doesn't think its a good idea means nothing, considering Rumsfeld and Co. wrote up the policy and the DoD was most responsible for implementing it.

I was asking if you agreed specifically with mccain's critique. Because it seems to be the "common knowledge" view and it's complete nonsense that shows he has no idea what he's talking about.

[a completely inoffensive name]

I was asking if you agreed specifically with mccain's critique. Because it seems to be the "common knowledge" view and it's complete nonsense that shows he has no idea what he's talking about.

Have you been waterboarded?

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Have you been waterboarded?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWm-QU9YRCI

Is this waterboarding?

Unfortunately, there is no 'common knowledge' on torture. There's hardly even 'common knowledge' about police interrogations. Everyone has a different breaking point, different values, and different goals, and that all plays in to how effective a torture technique is going to be. It is, in a sense, the most personal kind of experience you can have with someone.

It is not something as simple and straight-forward as 'We torture you, you talk.' It is a long process that, at gitmo, can take many years of sessions that test their physical, mental, and personal fortitude.

Describe what you think the japanese did and then describe what you think we did. Can you tell me what the two most glaring errors in mccain's statement are? Do you think we "waterboarded" anyone at gitmo?

[Kadagar_AV]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWm-QU9YRCI

Is this waterboarding?

A) Wrong material on the cloth. Most of the water skipped off.
B) It's all fun and games until you can't rip the cloth off.

However... did You even LOOK at the first pictures I posted?

EDIT: I know it is the wrong type of cloth because I had a VERY un-PC captain in the army. He also happened to mention some creative ways to use our communication equipment coupled with the scrotum. And did you know small needles can work wonders under nails? Don't get me started on the teeth, now THAT is what you resort to in desperate situations.

But then, the best sort of torture is strapping someone up, sedate the bodies, make them unable to see their body... And then play various cracking sounds in their ears, as you explain what you are doing to them. Or better yet, leave a LOT for imagination.

However, he gave us the knowledge of how to use it in a pinch. And we were all abundantly clear on it breaking each and every international code of honour. We were also clear on the fact that attempting this WOULD breach our contract with humanity at large.

The USA seem to have had the same lesson... But not the same... Lesson...

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWm-QU9YRCI

Is this waterboarding?



Describe what you think the japanese did and then describe what you think we did. Can you tell me what the two most glaring errors in mccain's statement are? Do you think we "waterboarded" anyone at gitmo?

No, this is:



Torture.

[rvg]

I just noticed my sig, I have had it for... YEARS...

"Occasionally, we have to break our own rules and go against our principles in order to save those principles. Certain situations warrant that."
- rvg

I picked that as my sig because... it was the most stupid thing I had heard an american say. At the time, You were defending going into Iraq to get the Weapons Of Mass Destruction, and You were defending going into Afghanistan to catch Bin Laden.

What I wonder is... What do You think now?

It actually scared me that You not only supported the reason for the wars, but supported the torture and **** that came along with it, with the defense posted in my signature.

I for one will never agree to that belief. If USA go against Your own rules and principles to defend them, how can the rest of the world tell You are the righteous ones?

And if You go torturing people because of a war based on false assumptions of WMD's, can't You understand the rest of the world get... Shocked?

I thought about changing signature, but then... Have you changed?

That quote of mine comes from me supporting the waterboarding of Al-Qaeda guys to extract information from them. I never supported the Iraqi invasion. As for waterboarding, they should keep at it. I don't care if those terrorists get dipped into acid, as long as it helps save American lives.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

What I think doesn't matter. That we waterboarded people is a matter of record, and immediately after posting this I will do my best to bring forth the proof.

But you seem to have no interest in what waterboarding is. The japanese took people, poured water continuously, and then interrogated them--if they answered their mouth would fill up, and if they didn't answer they were beaten. After their stomachs filled with water and were distended they would jump up and down on them to force the water back up. We used a plastic water bottle, no more than 1 liter, held 12-24 inches over the head, blah blah, usually for 10 seconds, and they didn't interrogate people during them. It's a simulation of torture. The "enhanced techniques" were part bluff, part wearing people down, part making them feel like they endured something harsh enough to cooperate without feeling ashamed. So that they don't feel like they are in control. When they accepted that they cooperated.

Why did you accept the equation of japanese "waterboarding" with what we did? Why accept mccain's ignorant statement about "you'll say anything to get the pain to stop"? For that matter why accept that we treated the japanese justly after ww2.

You should know this stuff it's basic.

A) Wrong material on the cloth. Most of the water skipped off.

What's the material of the cloth? They're using a bucket which is excessive to begin with, and you can see in pvc's vid that it only takes a little water. Search for others on youtube that show the cloth more clearly if you want.

B) It's all fun and games until you can't rip the cloth off.

cliche nonsense. If something is torture it isn't fun and games while voluntary.

However... did You even LOOK at the first pictures I posted?

The "US" didn't do abu ghraib, anymore than norway did breivik. Regardless of whether it's the "only us you know".

No, this is:

Some drama queen who is thinks its torture volunteers for it in order to write a vanity fair article? He lasted longer than they usually did it for (ksk used to count to ten on his fingers) too. By the way that was "6 waterboardings" based on their method for counting.

Torture.

Try stating it more firmly.

[Lemur]

I'd re-state and re-link to original documents, such as the mortician reports, but why bother? I've posted it all in the past, and clearly made no impression. Some people are just gonna believe what they want to believe.

On the bright side, other societies that had episodes of torture also took a long time getting around to prosecutions, but they got around to it, eventually, sort of. (Sometimes with a little help from other countries.)

I guess the lesson is that the political conditions that allow torture don't vanish overnight, and the defenders of torture will persevere in the face of overwhelming evidence and public consensus.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

I guess the lesson is that the political conditions that allow torture don't vanish overnight, and the defenders of torture will persevere in the face of overwhelming evidence and public consensus.

How's life in the echo-zone?

"How do you feel about the use of torture against suspected terrorists to obtain information about terrorism activities? Can that often be justified, sometimes be justified, rarely be justified, or never be justified?" Options rotated
		Often	Sometimes	Rarely	Never	Unsure
		%	%	%	%	%
	5/5-9/11	25	35	14	25	2
	1/12-17/10	23	29	19	27	3
	5/28 - 6/1/09	20	32	18	29	1

"Do you think it is sometimes justified to use waterboarding and other aggressive interrogation tactics to get information from a suspected terrorist, or are these tactics never justified?"
		Sometimes justified	Never justified	Depends (vol.)	Unsure
		%	%	%	%
	11/6-10/11	45	40	6	9
	Republicans	70	20	5	5
	Democrats	35	48	6	11
	Independents	37	46	8	9
	4/22-26/09	37	46	7	10

How do like the trend?

We were blanketed with enough propaganda to cause a noticeable distortion, e.g. most people are now willing to define torture as "something really unpleasant" or at least say that it's torture but that torture can be justified. And frankly I'm not too optimistic about it wearing off. There's evidently something too satisfying to people about perpetuating the idea.

[Kralizec]

It's a simulation of torture.

...

Those inmates at Guantanamo must be feeling really stupid, letting themselves get fooled into that were tortured. "This sentation of drowning is mildly unpleasant. I guess that means I'm being tortured...well, I guess that means I'll have to talk."

[Sarmatian]

That quote of mine comes from me supporting the waterboarding of Al-Qaeda guys to extract information from them. I never supported the Iraqi invasion. As for waterboarding, they should keep at it. I don't care if those terrorists get dipped into acid, as long as it helps save American lives.

Oh, the sacred American lives. It's okay, then.

Don't let the sand around your head bother you.

[Strike For The South]

Other people torture harsher than we do, therefore we didn't torture

[rvg]

Oh, the sacred American lives. It's okay, then.

Not sacred, just valuable. Definitely more valuable than the lives of the terrorists.

[Montmorency]

But you seem to have no interest in what waterboarding is. The japanese took people, poured water continuously, and then interrogated them--if they answered their mouth would fill up, and if they didn't answer they were beaten. After their stomachs filled with water and were distended they would jump up and down on them to force the water back up. We used a plastic water bottle, no more than 1 liter, held 12-24 inches over the head, blah blah, usually for 10 seconds, and they didn't interrogate people during them. It's a simulation of torture. The "enhanced techniques" were part bluff, part wearing people down, part making them feel like they endured something harsh enough to cooperate without feeling ashamed. So that they don't feel like they are in control. When they accepted that they cooperated.

Why did you accept the equation of japanese "waterboarding" with what we did? Why accept mccain's ignorant statement about "you'll say anything to get the pain to stop"? For that matter why accept that we treated the japanese justly after ww2.

You should know this stuff it's basic.

The Japanese? Forgetaboutit. The Klorxorns took people, grazed upon their minds with their Maw-Shears of Incorporeal Rending, and then sucked all the information from them in a process known only as "The Latrine of Mercy". After picking through the gains to get at what they desired, the information would then be mangled and regurgitated back into the prisoners' minds. After the shrieking insanity had set in, they would be made to worship the condition of their own degradation for ten thousand millenniums before being reduced to their constituent fundamental particles, each of which had been converted into another instance of themselves, each of which added to the unity of the individual's experience and so made a mockery of all the torment that had come before. But this was only the beginning. The Japanese just stuck stuff under people's fingernails for like a few minutes, and their techniques weren't even reliable methods of retrieving information. To name Japanese squirming "torture" is to deny the untold groans and wails that have been swallowed up by the untold vastness and sound-slaying gravity of the Klorxorns' fortress in the pit of our galaxy's black hole. The Japanese merely performed what they understood, and their "prisoners" responded as they understood. It was not torture, nor even the simulation of torture, but language. Do not blame the Tower of Babel. The Klorxorns have no language, save the engineered and emergent understanding that it is only fact for us take on the burden, the responsibility, of our own suffering, and so to suffer the more greatly its own continuous encrease.

Also, in Hell you suffer for ever and ever.

Just tell us where exactly you draw the semantic line and make a case for it, Moses.

[Strike For The South]

Not sacred, just valuable. Definitely more valuable than the lives of the terrorists.

I realize you have me on ignore BUT

The life of a murderer is always less sacred than the life of an innocent.

The statement "It's needed to save American lives" is the biggest scare tactic since hair on the palms. Equally bad is the following scenario "I have a terrorist in the room and the bomb will go in the next 5 min if he doesn't talk"

The later is horseshit and the former postulates that Americans are little angels under constant threat from devils from below. 9/11 happened for a reason, now before I go any further, what those men did was cold bolded murder and beyond defensible. However, the idea that two entire countries of people can be held accountable and occupied for the actions of a few is just as indefensible, as is the forfeitures of our freedoms

The occupations of these countries and all the lives lost do not represent American lives saved or democracy spread. They represent ebbs and flows of power, they represent the bread thrown to the hungry crowds, they represent what was politically useful at the time. That is the saddest thing here. All the American servicemen who died, All the civilians, nothing more than collateral damage in the pursuit of power. Not that this is surprising, it has always been like this.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Other people torture harsher than we do, therefore we didn't torture

You mean this like a joke (edit: you too montmorency), but you almost nailed the truth. Waterboarding can be used for torture if that is the wish of the interrogators--just do it like the japanese did. Denying someone water could be torture if it was carried out to long. Isolation or sleep deprivation can be torture if carried out to long. That's the reason the main argument from the gitmo-maniacs is false equations with japanese or nazi's or whoever. The claim that waterboarding is torture has no more merit than the claim that sleep deprivation is torture--they both have a tremendous range that covers everything from not torture to horrendous. If I felt like writing some dumb parody I would take someones claim that sleep deprivation isn't torture and then post a bunch of outraged moralizing about how so-and-so went insane from not being allowed any sleep for 11 days.

There is no argument to be made, all that's needed is a description of reality. I gave a basic description of what was done, you can read more detailed descriptions if you bother to find a good source. Anyone who has a simple desire for the truth will percieve that what we did was not torture and was most certainly a good thing to do. But too many people don't care about that, especially the talking heads on tv and the avid news watching talking-point repeaters, and that's where the arguments start. People who have filled some sort of existential gap in their soul with some ideological beliefs, religious beliefs, moral posturing, social group identification, etc, and are willing to say anything that sounds good to them. It's narcissism gone wild. People love the image of CIA agents dousing people with water with sadistic glee and scribbling down whatever they babble out to make the pain stop. McCain loves his "maverick" image too much to care that he's saying things that are idiotic. The media treats anyone who says "waterboarding is torture" like a hero, and ordinary people want a bit of that glory for themselves, or at least want to avoid being "some patriotic wingnut".

Human nature is deeply flawed and this particular flaw is very well illustrated by the Orwellian equivocation over the word "waterboarding" for deeply selfish purposes.

edit: well, I'm being to harsh on people. We heard nothing but lies and nonsense about it for a long time after all. But still, it's 2012 for goodness sake.