Hoplite Unit Case Study and Giving Hoplites the Phalanx Attribute

[mikepettyrtw]

I have conducted a case study of certain Hoplite units I have determined are broken or other people have said are broken. Broken means not operating properly or not as intended.
PLAY TEST 1 (complete) Part 1
The following units have been are being play tested:

Syracusan Hoplite (out of testing)


Iphikratous Hoplitai (Greek Hoplite Phalanx)


Thorakitai Hoplitai (Greek Heavy Hoplite Phalanx)


Massilian Hoplitai(out of testing)


What was done special about part 1?
Well, we used necceseasrry Hoplite & phalanx fix ascribed by Jirisys' here :
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...(Reduplicated)
They are explained here :

-to Macedonian phalanxes: -.03 spear lethality, -1 sword attack, -2 armor, + 2 defense skill; given spear attribute (light_spear attribute removed).
What this means: Although Macedonian phalanxes maintain their attack ratings, decreased lethality causes their hits to knock opponents down more frequently (rather than kill). The decrease in armor is made up for in head on contests (when unit is in phalanx) by the increase in skill, which effects melee defense from the front and left (shield) sides; armor effects missile and melee defense from all sides. Thus, Macedonian phalanxes are now more vulnerable to missiles fired from any direction, but particularly at their exposed rear and flanks. They are also more vulnerable to flanking attacks. The spear attribute makes them push more and harder (something phalanxes were very good at). The downside to this attribute is that it can make units push so hard that their formation loses cohesion. [Something that did happen - MikePettyrtw]

-to Classical (Hoplite) phalanxes: -.02 spear lethality, -2 armor, + 2 shield defense, +3 charge bonus; given short_pike attribute; given spear attribute (light_spear attribute removed).
What this means: See Macedonian phalanxes. The changes are similar except that hoplites receive an increase in shield defense rather than defense skill. This is because hoplite phalanxes in EB do not use phalanx, and thus are not nearly as resistant to missiles from the front and left side as are the Macedonian variety, whose shield defense is doubled when in phalanx.
Hoplites too get a reduction in lethality so as to better reflect hoplite warfare. Casualties were generally few until one formation or another broke from the extreme force of the pressing phalanx--that was when the real killing began. The spear attribute makes them push more and harder (something hoplites were very good at). The downside to this attribute is that it can make units push so hard that they break formation. In combination with a cohesive formation trait such as the short_pike attribute, however, they maintain formation and the ability to push hard.
The biggest change here is indeed the short_pike attribute. This does a number of things. First, it shrinks their spears from approximately twelve feet in length to nine. Twelve feet is simply inaccurately long for classical hoplites or Spartiates.

However his fixes were not applied to the following :

Syracusan Hoplites (They used spears larger than the Classical Hoplites, and using the shrot_pike and spear attr. makes the spears to be reduced to the size of Classical Hoplites), Hypaspistai (The model makes it impossible to have the attr. because the sword becomes a short pike hold in a Makedonian phalanx upwards way), Massilian Hoplites (Same problem as Hypaspistai), Celto-Hellenic Hoplite (The javelins become pikes holded like the Hypaspistai held upwards, etc.).

I am running BI, however I ignored shield wall for the sake of playtesting.

Review of Part 1
Well take a look for yourself :



As the Playtest was taking place, I wrote down notes :

Syracusan Hoplite :
Fine, Holding well against Marians

Iphikratous Hoplitai:
Charged with swords & broke ranks; then ?after alt-clicking? only front ranks fight with swords. Nonetheless, they made shitty swordsmen and routed son i am disapoint......

Thorakitai Hoplitai :
REFUSES to fight with spear; charged with swords and broke ranks, they also make shitty swordsmen.

Massilian Hoplites:
They fade in and out....Preforming well against Marian First Cohort. Alt-click to use spears, overall they seem pretty bad ass. Both swords and spears work well!

Overall Analysis of Playtest 1 Part 1

Well, it seems that hoplites not from Hellas proper (not from Greece) seem to work nicely. However, we know this not to be true because Babylonian spearmen are FUBAR! They will be play tested in Playtest 2 (next week) along with a few others.
Nonetheless, I am grossly diapointed with KH specific Hoplites.
NEXT UP IN PART 2 of PLAYTEST ONE
We will give the units mentioned here the Phalanx atribute to see if that balances fixes them. Stay tuned!!

[Arjos]

Having a general unit nearby and uneven ground, hardly makes for an objective test...
Not to mention the reformata isn't exactly a weak/levy unit...

I think all of those units, should eventually lose most likely...

[Ca Putt]

Why are you testing Syracuseans? They are said to be "Iphikratosish" in the discription but bascially they are just a Hoplitai variant with slightly different stats but no major differences(like Germanic spearmen variants for the Sweboz).
The Massilian is somewhat a different unit than the two reformed hopliteswhich indeed could be assigned a macedonian phalanx formation. The Massilians however are "just" a particulary celtic variant of the Hoplitai with the addition of a sweet longsword as secondary. Here the rule "because units with spear and sword suck, we give hoplites only one weapon" was overgone, simply as their secondary weapon is soo great, especially when you're the KH, and thus lack swordsmen.
The switcheryness of this unit makes it awkward to fight heavy cavalry or unarmored infantry, as they actually have a weapon that counters the enemy but - according to murphy - will not use. Fighting Light cavalry they sort of can't do anything wrong, while with armored infantry both weapons are ok but not great.
In essence they often preform worse than their stats would suggest.

And how are babylonian Spearmen, F*cked up? I know they suffer from the same problems as the Massilians. However I always found their preformance most pleasing. Probably because they are more of "generally powerfull soldiers" than "close order spearmen and they have a mace^^*

Making their weapon choice inimportant against heavy cavalry.

Apart from that I have to agree with Arjos, Testing on flat terrain with other troops may be prudent.

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

Also note the difference between Massalian/Hypaspistai style units and Thorakitai/Iphikratous/Alpine/Helvetii etc style units. The former has longsword as primary and spear as secondary. The latter has spear as primary and sword/axe as secondary. They work differently through the engine.

[mikepettyrtw]

PLAYTEST 1 Part 2
Part 2 of the aforementioned play test. We have given the units of Playtest 1 Part 1 the Phalanx attribute in the EDU file.
We have listened to your recommendations and chose a flat map.

The Results!
Due to the smaller unit size and rigidity of the Phalanx formation, hoplite units with this attribute are more easily flanked, either bring more, spread more, or have some non-phalanx hoplites to hold off flankers.
This battle was EVEN, 50/50
We go Unit by Unit! Just as before, I wrote notes during the battle!

Syracusan Hoplite

Well, they already look like they will be monsters. Holds against Marians (fights overhanded like a normal hoplite)
!ERROR! becuase they lack a secondary, when they break ranks or are flanked they do a shield bask attack. All the pikes go straight in the air!

Not suprisingly they fight well with shield bash. I withdrew them after a while due to their irrelevancy. Their playtesting period is over, they are NOT ELIGIBLE for the phalanx attribute
(unatrual; withdrawn) (out of playtesting)


Iphikratous Hoplitai (Greek Hoplite Phalanx)

These guys are the BIG winners; the phalanx attribute balances in correlation to their historical roll and price, take a look :

Battle notes => Fights well against marians. spears just long enough to be effective. Hold against marians EXTREMLY well (this is made up for because they are easily flanked without spreading or supporting units (this would latter on be the exact cause of their rout)).
Even with swords they STILL hold line!

HOLLY CRAP!! they just routed a unit of MARIANS!!

(spears are up because at that very moment I just ordered them to exit phalanx)
They naturally switch to swords in the same way normal Macedonian phalanx's do; for all intents and purposes, these men fight identically except for the vastly shorter pikes.
They are amazing right now, fighting really like a unit! :

Hardly any swords drawn while in phalanx formation. They have literally driven through the Roman line. STILL pushing.
...
.....
.......
Holly Crap!!!! :

routed another unit of marians due to extreme pushing!
Saddly they routed near the end of the battle while trying to hold off a First Cohort. The rout was warranted, they had lost half their men and were exhausted.


Thorakitai Hoplitai (Greek Heavy Hoplite Phalanx)


Battle notes => (spears seem too short), at first, many on the front ranks ended up fighting with swords anyway due to short spears. This latter (partly) corrected itself without intervention. Spears are still too short to completely stop secondary switch. They make up for it by pushing EXTREMELY hard. They do hold there own though:

They, like the Iphikratous Hoplitai, fight naturally in a phalanx; fighting underhanded and naturally switching to secondary when needed.
They push so hard that they are giving the marians a run for their money. The extreme pushing is compensating for their short spears! (gained an exp point)
They did not rout until they were down to about 17 men! Even though they died far faster than Iphikratous Hoplitai, they make up for this by pushing even harder and not routing. I would say they are far more balanced than before.


Massilian Hoplitai

At first glance they fight exactly like a macedonian phalanx; underhanded. How, appearances were decieving. Giving them the phalanx attribute actually breaks them. They can't turn on their swords!!!!, When they break ranks they ended up fighting like normal hoplitai:

^Broken ranks while in phalanx^
As you view that image bear in mind that they started out like normal phalanx units. Alt-click will not cause them to draw swords. They can't regain the bigger pike they started with no matter what. The attribute broke them. Slaughtered by the same first cohort that slaughtered my glorious Iphikratous hoplitai. Had it not been for the Massilian rout, I would have won the battle.
(unatrual; routed) (out of playtesting)


Epilogue

Battle was narrowly lost thanks to the broken Massialian's :


2 units are out of playtesting :
Massilian Hoplitai

&
Syracusan Hoplite


In response to responses

Having a general unit nearby and uneven ground, hardly makes for an objective test...
Not to mention the reformata isn't exactly a weak/levy unit...

I think all of those units, should eventually lose most likely...

Although I know you were referring to Part 1, You would be very surprised, this most recent battle has been 50/50. There was never a point where I could tell who was going to win.

Why are you testing Syracuseans? They are said to be "Iphikratosish" in the discription but bascially they are just a Hoplitai variant with slightly different stats but no major differences(like Germanic spearmen variants for the Sweboz).
The Massilian is somewhat a different unit than the two reformed hopliteswhich indeed could be assigned a macedonian phalanx formation. The Massilians however are "just" a particulary celtic variant of the Hoplitai with the addition of a sweet longsword as secondary. Here the rule "because units with spear and sword suck, we give hoplites only one weapon" was overgone, simply as their secondary weapon is soo great, especially when you're the KH, and thus lack swordsmen.
The switcheryness of this unit makes it awkward to fight heavy cavalry or unarmored infantry, as they actually have a weapon that counters the enemy but - according to murphy - will not use. Fighting Light cavalry they sort of can't do anything wrong, while with armored infantry both weapons are ok but not great.
In essence they often preform worse than their stats would suggest.

And how are babylonian Spearmen, F*cked up? I know they suffer from the same problems as the Massilians. However I always found their preformance most pleasing. Probably because they are more of "generally powerfull soldiers" than "close order spearmen and they have a mace^^*

Making their weapon choice inimportant against heavy cavalry.

Apart from that I have to agree with Arjos, Testing on flat terrain with other troops may be prudent.

I have decided to take Syracuseans completely out of playtesting. They become shield bashing monsters! Similar situation for the Massilians, except the Phalanx attribute made them weaker and unbalanced.
As for Babylonians; They never retain their spears, sometimes they refuse to fight with them at all. I first noticed this when I first got EB long before any modding or porting to BI.

Also note the difference between Massalian/Hypaspistai style units and Thorakitai/Iphikratous/Alpine/Helvetii etc style units. The former has longsword as primary and spear as secondary. The latter has spear as primary and sword/axe as secondary. They work differently through the engine.

I wish I could have noticed that before this playtest Thank you so much for specifying the differences.

Thank You All for your reply's and suggestions! Keep them Coming!

Stay Tuned For Part 3 of Playtest 1!

[mikepettyrtw]

PLAYTEST 1 Part 3; Final portion of playtest 1
Part 3 of the aforementioned play test. We decided to fight against our new units, with prototypes being in AI hands. I also have changed .EXE's, from BI.exe to ALX.exe, I have kept the same EDU, minus the shield_wall and can_swim attributes.
We chose to play as Qarthadast for this playtest. The units used were :

Dorkim Libi-Ponnim (Liby-Phoenician Infantry)
Stats :
Attack: 14
Defense: 23
Charge: 11

&


'Hanatim Libim Kbedim (Libyan Heavy Spearmen)
Stats :
Attack: 15
Defense: 23
Charge: 4

TO BE CLEAR, the above units are not in playtesting, rather we are fighting the units in playtesting V, with the units above^
As before, the units in playtsting are :

Iphikratous Hoplitai (Greek Hoplite Phalanx)

Stats:
Attack: 14
Defense: 19
Charge: 6
&
Thorakitai Hoplitai (Greek Heavy Hoplite Phalanx)

Stats:
Attack: 15
Defense:24
Charge: 9
THE RESULTS
Thorakitai Hoplitai (Greek Heavy Hoplite Phalanx)

Battle Notes =>
AI used them first VS my Libyan Heavy Spearmen

At first I thought something was wrong as they were marching, but that must have been the AI adjusting unit width. At first I thought they were loosing; but then they started their extreme pushing thing!

My guys are getting murdered. They are wavering after 3 minutes!

Down to 90 men.
The Thorakitai Hoplitai are like a silver bullet, punching a hole in any line. These guys murdered a unit of Libyan Heavy Spearmen.

After prolonged fighting, most are down to swords and are still killing.
Routed my Spearmen; returned to phalanx.




Iphikratous Hoplitai (Greek Hoplite Phalanx)

Instantly starts gibbing my generals Liby-Phoenecian Spearmen.

Down to 132 men in 2 minutes. They still do good pushing. Halfway through the battle it seems like AI turned guard mode on and the heavy pushing stopping, as did my extreme casualties. Unit is stationary but still fighting. Still winning.
I eventually did get some flanking action thanks the small unit size of Iphikratous Hoplitai. It did not matter:


Final thought on Playtest 1
Well, It's been a while, with lots of fun and lots of suprise, but I can safely say that Iphikratous Hoplitai and Thorakitai Hoplitai work better with the phalanx attribute. Before they were broken and routed very quickly; now they hold their ground like the soldiers they were intended to be. Their description specificly says they were intended to match their Macedonian cousins, and with the phalanx attribute, they get as close as they can. I would recommend these changes for the next edition of the MP EDU. If you would like to follow my advice, go to your EDU and find the entry for Thorakitai Hoplitai and add ,phalanx at the end of square:

 ;178
type             greek infantry epikletoi hoplitai
dictionary       greek_infantry_epikletoi_hoplitai      ; Thorakitai Hoplitai
category         infantry
class            spearmen
voice_type       General_1
soldier          hellenistic_infantry_basilikonagema_epikletoihoplitai_easternauxilia, 40, 0, 1.22
officer          ebofficer_hellenic_officer
officer          ebofficer_hellenic_standardbearer
mount_effect     elephant -1
attributes       sea_faring, hide_forest
formation        0.76, 1, 2, 2.4, 4, square, phalanx
stat_health      1, 1
stat_pri         15, 9, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, spear, 0 ,0.11
stat_pri_attr    spear, short_pike
stat_sec         10, 6, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, slashing, sword, 0 ,0.11
stat_sec_attr    ap
stat_pri_armour  10, 9, 5, metal
stat_sec_armour  0, 0, flesh
stat_heat        5
stat_ground      0, 0, -3, -3
stat_mental      15, disciplined, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay  0
stat_food        60, 300
stat_cost        1, 1902, 478, 60, 90, 1902
ownership        greek_cities, slave

and do the same to Iphikratous Hoplitai :

;155
type             greek infantry iphikratous hoplitai
dictionary       greek_infantry_iphikratous_hoplitai      ; Iphikratous Hoplitai
category         infantry
class            spearmen
voice_type       General_1
soldier          hellenistic_infantry_iphikratoushoplitai_misthophoroihoplitai_indohellenikoihoplitai, 40, 0, 1.2
officer          ebofficer_hellenic_officer
officer          ebofficer_hellenic_standardbearer
mount_effect     elephant -1
attributes       sea_faring, hide_forest, can_sap, hardy
formation        0.7, 1.2, 2, 2.4, 4, square, phalanx
stat_health      1, 1
stat_pri         14, 6, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, spear, 0 ,0.13
stat_pri_attr    light_spear
stat_sec         10, 6, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, slashing, sword, 0 ,0.13
stat_sec_attr    no
stat_pri_armour  8, 8, 3, leather
stat_sec_armour  0, 0, flesh
stat_heat        3
stat_ground      0, 0, -1, -2
stat_mental      11, normal, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay  0
stat_food        60, 300
stat_cost        1, 1275, 319, 50, 70, 1275
ownership        greek_cities, slave

PS. In the future I will try to do another playtest with Babylonian Spearmen and a few others.
PPS. The reason for switching EXE.'s is to wean myself off of shield_wall, I enjoy it too much, and I personally think I use it too much.

[seleucid empire]

it sounds like they are now too op.

[Basileus_ton_Basileon]

That was the problem in earlier versions, and the macedonian phalanx formation is historically inaccurate. I applaud the effort M.Petty put in, but I'd say more could be achieved by bumping their unit size and/or lowering their cost. The classical hoplite was in the decline anyways, to increasing the Iphikratous hoplites' unit size would justify that. Hoplitai only really meant 'men-at-arms', the Iphikratous hoplitai were actually 'Peltastai' with spears instead of javelins.

[seleucid empire]

That was the problem in earlier versions, and the macedonian phalanx formation is historically inaccurate. I applaud the effort M.Petty put in, but I'd say more could be achieved by bumping their unit size and/or lowering their cost. The classical hoplite was in the decline anyways, to increasing the Iphikratous hoplites' unit size would justify that. Hoplitai only really meant 'men-at-arms', the Iphikratous hoplitai were actually 'Peltastai' with spears instead of javelins.

I recall someone here trying to do the same with the Germanic pike infantry (speudogordoz) and telling us that they wiped out two units of pzehetairoi head on O.O