Pirate Ship Mafia II [Concluded]

[Chaotix]

That was ATPG stealing from me?

I should have killed you first!

Anyway, good game. Zaccino played his cards very well.

[El Barto]

I feel manipulated.

Well, we were a secret covenant of two manipulative bastards and a manipulative bitch.

Diana, don't be offended at beign called a manipulative bastard, it's a unisex trope from TVTropes.

This game didn't have to end after catching all the Spaniards. I'll always wonder what would've happened if we continued play: mutiny after mutiny and excessive killing and stealing at night, tearing each other apart until only one pirate with a ship full of gold would've remained?

Hmmm, no, methinks it'd be four people, those four are the minimum required to mount a kill attack.

Thanks for the game, GH! It's a great setup, and I think luck was more involved in the quick end than anything else. I think the exact same setup could produce a Mafia victory without too much difficulty, though the stealing mechanic might need some tweaking.

I don't think a Mafia victory could've been as fast, but two conversions per night by now would've given them nearly half the playerbase.

Meh, I wanted to win; always do. When I couldn't trust anyone, Captain was a desirable place for me to be. After N3, I was able to trust a few people and I didn't feel like I needed the position anymore. Gold is useless if you're dead, so for me it took a back seat to survival and victory. In any case, I can't remember the last time we ever trusted each other in a game so I'm not sure why you thought I'd put my fate in your hands this time. You're well known for being duplicitous even when you're a townie, so you're not exactly at the top of my ally list.

The best way to ensure survival is by proving you're doing useful stuff at night (which gives you gold), and not hiding or lurking but voting (for which you get gold and, hey, you don't get WoG'd), even if you just follow the captain blindly on the vote, which I did, even when prodding others.

That was ATPG stealing from me?

I should have killed you first!

When in doubt, silence/roleblock/kill/protect/busdrive Askthepizzaguy.
When in doubt, suspect Askthepizzaguy.
When in doubt, question Askthepizzaguy.
When in doubt, evade Askthepizzaguy.
When in doubt, avoid Askthepizzaguy.
When in doubt, lynch Askthepizzaguy.

Anyway, good game. Zaccino played his cards very well.

There was a bit of meta and Zaccino was a bit unduly aggresive at points, but he did kick ass…

[Zack]

Zaccino played his cards very well.

I still maintain that my best move of the game was killing Pizza, even though he was a townie. It got the "don't you effing dare mutiny or mess with me" vibe across pretty clearly.

[Zack]

I have to say, being the focus of so many QuickTopics is surreal.

Also, I hope I never become the leader of a town network ever again.

[El Barto]

When in doubt, silence/roleblock/kill/protect/busdrive Askthepizzaguy.

I still maintain that my best move of the game was killing Pizza, even though he was a townie. It got the "don't you effing dare mutiny or mess with me" vibe across pretty clearly.

Clearly, we are in agreement.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Epilogue

Another Fine Morning in Nassau

The Presence made port at around eleven that morning, which was good news for Nassau's various tavernkeepers as it meant that there would be a full day of debauchery ahead of them. Nineteen sailors came off the ship that day, having to disembark one at a time due to the staggering amounts of treasure each one was carrying. All but one of them looked absolutely ecstatic to be in such a lawless place with so much booty to spend (and so much of a different type of booty available to be spent on). The merriment began immediately and lasted well into the night.


Wanting to experience a little bit of everything, most of the crewmen went straight to the main bar, drank their share and whored, then moved onto the next bar, repeating this process multiple times throughout the day until they had hit the main tavern on at least three separate occasions. Kaiser Friedrich III, however, was simply content at staying at the main bar and quietly enjoying his favorite brand of rum. His sack of treasure was slightly smaller than most, at a mere 108, however, he was still alive. The people that made big plays for their treasure and didn't make it off the ship wouldn't be able to spend it, and what was the sense in that? Yes, Friedrich figured, he had the system gamed.

edse, the Drunken pirate, and his partner Lyra, were at a different section of the main tavern, with edse currently being the source of much of the shenanigans that were going on. edse had acquired a good amount of gold for himself, 213 in all, and it looked as if he was spending every cent of it on liquor, as was his custom. When asked about this, he slurred something so thickly that nobody was able to understand what he said, save for Lyra.

"He says he needs the liquor to replenish his bloodstream," Lyra shouted, nursing his own smaller stack of treasure. The two separate thieveries the previous night had really cut into his stash. "Otherwise he goes through withdrawal symptoms!" He laughed and edse continued his raucousness, reaching record-setting levels of drunkenness. Somehow, he only blacked out well after midnight, about 16 full-sized bottles of rum in.


All throughout the taverns, that cliques that stuck together on the Presence mostly drank together in Nassau. Andres, Ironside, johnhughthom, and issaikhaan, who had killed together and at times had stolen from each other, shared a table, reminiscing and laughing about their adventures and exactly why khaan put on his strange "acolyte" persona aboard the ship, to which khaan simply laughed and took another sip of his ale.

The same thing was happening at a different table, where JoanK, NinjaCow64, and Captain Blackadder - who had done quite well for himself in the treasure count despite being mistaken for someone who wasn't even on board the first half of the trip - were discussing to themselves about the raid on the Marquesa and the other ships in the Spanish Treasure Fleet and how they could have potentially picked off a few more ships. It seemed as if some pirates could never entirely be satisfied.


The three remaining members of the New Four Horsemen, a completely inoffensive name, autolycus, and God Emperor toasted their fallen comrade Chaotix and then drank, mostly in silence. They had lived, yes. They had killed, yes. However, had they caused chaos by killing randomly and turned out to be the deadliest and most effective force aboard? Not quite, not this time. Perhaps, they ruminated, if there was to be a next time, the next time they could reexamine their options and go back to basics if the names of a completely inoffensive name, miotas, A Very Super Market, and Subotan were to live on in glory.

Still, though, they had lived, and that particular night, there was nothing wrong with that. 172 gold, which both God Emperor and ACIN ended up with, could provide a lot of pleasure, and autolycus's 167 was right behind.


There had been one super-dedicated thief aboard the Presence: Ishmael, who had opted to steal treasure almost every night before he decided to do his duty assigned to him before the raid and take inventory of everyone's gold. This pursuit of treasure had turned out quite successful for Ishmael, who had 201 gold to his name when he stepped off the boat.

Now, the question was, what was Ishmael going to do with all of this treasure? He certainly had a lot and could spend it on a truly epic night. However, taking inventory had also keenly attuned him to the fact that quite a lot of other people were filthy rich right now. After all, why be satisfied with 201 gold when you could have 401 gold? 1000 gold? Ishmael grinned. Everybody was already drunk. This would be like stealing candy from a baby.


El Barto, the last Musketeer, pondered to himself. He had most definitely enjoyed himself earlier in the night, but now was the time for some reflection on his part. His original group, consisting of himself, Diana Abnoba, and Askthepizzaguy, had made a vow to be absolutely merciless in the pursuit of gold. In the end, it had gotten ATPG killed and Diana most likely targeted for conversion to the Spanish, but it had certainly worked out for him. His count of 226 treasure was second-most on the entire ship, behind only Captain Zaccino's.

Were there any regrets? Probably - it would have been really nice had any of the other Musketeers survived, and there was most likely some actions he or they could have changed in order to reach this goal, but in the end his main goal had been accomplished. El Barto was rich. Now, the only question that remained was what to do with this money? Certainly everyone was currently having a great time - it sounded like edse was gunning for some sort of record - but that was the thing, they'd only be able to have this great time once. El Barto, see, was more of a long-term thinker. El Barto was thinking ahead to the means where he could enjoy nights like this on a regular basis.

He decided that he was going to start up a bank.


The Officer's Club was the swankiest, most exclusive tavern in Nassau, a place to go for the folks who had embraced the life of piracy but still weren't ready to cut all ties to the Old World notions of station being important. Hence, it wasn't much of a surprise to see TinCow, BSmith, and Captain Zaccino inside, enjoying a finer quality of brandy and smoking some of the best tobacco from the colonies. Between the three of them they had racked up 634 treasure, including a mammoth 260 for Zaccino. Not bad for the self-described "Triumvirate of Booty".

All had good reason to sit back and enjoy the finer things in life. TinCow had been denied the Captaincy, but he was still able to work his way into Zaccino's good graces and prove a useful asset to the Captain whilst still being able to acquire treasure for himself. BSmith was in a position of strength from the start, eventually rising to Zaccino's unquestioned right-hand-man and probably being able to decide the very fate of the Captaincy itself by choosing to support Zaccino over Visorslash in the Frenchman's coup attempt on the fourth night. Finally, Zaccino acquired the most treasure on the ship and had successfully defended his Captaincy from all pretenders, taking out the entire Guardacosta force along the way.

Yes, life was good for these three officers. The ship had survived, and while piracy was unquestionably on the downswing throughout the world, the Presence, at least, still struck fear in the hearts of civilized folk everywhere. That was the way it should be.

"Say," said the Captain at some point during the night, "either of you happen to see where that Frenchman went after we got off the ship? I still be a bit uneasy over him."

TinCow and BSmith looked at each other and shook their heads. "I wouldn't worry about it," said the Pirate Lawyer. "He be defeated, and in mourning to boot. He'll be lickin' his wounds for a while."

"I suppose you're right," Zaccino said, and the three continued drinking.


Meanwhile, at midnight, two figures met on a small hilltop that marked the highest point on the island. A rough wooden cross, about a foot high, was stuck into the ground.

"It's been a while," said the first figure, moving to shake the second figure's hand. "How be life treatin' ye?"

"They killed my consort," the second figure, Visorslash, said, motioning to the cross on the ground. "Right near the start. We didn't have enough time to do anything. I loved her, I truly did."

"Ah, I be sorry about that, matey."

"I'm sure it will pass," the Frenchman said. "Maybe you'll have to tell me one of your stories to cheer me up, but some other time. How about you? How fares business?"

The first figure sighed. "Business be tough. We mortal folk can't just go raidin' some Treasure Fleet every time we feel like it. The navies be crackin' down everywhere, you know that."

"So then, you should be happy that I have a contract for you, yes?" The Frenchman leaned in closer. "This wouldn't be an attack against any colonial power, so there will be little risk of a ship of the line coming in and leveling its guns at your boat. What do you say, are the men of the Maven up for it?"

The Captain of the Maven paused. "What be the target?"

"I'm done playing around," the Frenchman said. "I want the Presence."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Please note: The order listed below is the order of finish. All Presence crewmen fulfilled at least one victory condition.

The victorious crewmen:
Zaccino - 260 (first place)
El Barto - 226
BSmith - 216
edse (Drunken pirate) - 213
Ishmael - 201
Andres - 179
a completely inoffensive name - 172
God Emperor - 172
autolycus - 167
JoanK - 165
johnhughthom - 160
TinCow - 158
Ironside - 154
NinjaCow64 - 151
Captain Blackadder - 138
Askthepizzaguy - 133
issaikhaan - 126
Lyra - 118
Kaiser Friedrich III - 108
Choxorn - 84
Tiaexz - 81
Buddhafish - 80
Memnon - 74
Montmorency - 69
Xenoneb - 58
Kagemusha - 50
Thermal - 43
DaveShack - 27

The defeated Spanish:
Diana Abnoba (Convert) - 161
Jolt (Lieutenant) - 125
Chaotix (Convert) - 74
Double A (Special Officer) - 70
Makrell (Lieutenant) - 61

The mourning Frenchman and his departed Consort:
Visorslash - 131
Arjos - 80

[GeneralHankerchief]

Thanks to one and all for a great game! I'd now officially like to open this up towards a postgame discussion. I'll be revealing the roles and their mechanics a little later, as well as a general essay about the game, but for now:

What worked well? What didn't? What needs some improvement?

Let me hear what you have to say so that, if and when Pirate Ship Mafia III ever happens, how can it be even better?

[Montmorency]

Never forget, edse!

[El Barto]

How about allowing people to guard another player's stash?

El Barto, the last Musketeer, pondered to himself. He had most definitely enjoyed himself earlier in the night, but now was the time for some reflection on his part. His original group, consisting of himself, Diana Abnoba, and Askthepizzaguy, had made a vow to be absolutely merciless in the pursuit of gold. In the end, it had gotten ATPG killed and Diana most likely targeted for conversion to the Spanish, but it had certainly worked out for him. His count of 226 treasure was second-most on the entire ship, behind only Captain Zaccino's.

Were there any regrets? Probably - it would have been really nice had any of the other Musketeers survived, and there was most likely some actions he or they could have changed in order to reach this goal, but in the end his main goal had been accomplished. El Barto was rich. Now, the only question that remained was what to do with this money? Certainly everyone was currently having a great time - it sounded like edse was gunning for some sort of record - but that was the thing, they'd only be able to have this great time once. El Barto, see, was more of a long-term thinker. El Barto was thinking ahead to the means where he could enjoy nights like this on a regular basis.

He decided that he was going to start up a bank.

Everybody in the house do the Bartman! I am most thankful to my kindly fellow Musketeers, who had it in them to cooperate and actually sign over their wills in such a way that Diana inherited from Pizza and me from her, and thus I was only outdone by the captain who had a higher salary and the starting bonus.

IC: Aye, I be startin' a bank, and I be lending plate and minted silver to anyone who be a-comin' and willin' to take the risk!

Wanna start a new game?

Never forget, edse!

Yes, what was this 'drunken pirate' thing?

[Zack]

thus I was only outdone by the captain who had a higher salary and the starting bonus.

And received no wills (that's what, 100 gold right there?), and didn't go out stealing each night (that's 5-20 gold each night), so I'm not sure what your point is there.

[Zack]

Problem: I think trying to make townies choose between gold and killing scums will almost always result in the townie choosing eliminating the scums. Unless you explicitly say, "your sole victory condition is the accumulation of wealth," townies will always view acquiring wealth as a relatively minor secondary goal.

Solution: There was a mafia-esque game on CFC a few years back called "Snakes & Foxes." The game was split between the Snakes, Foxes, and the Town, but there was only one winner of the game - whoever had the most gold on the winning team was declared the sole victor. This leads to the possibility of members of the town deliberately delaying eliminating the opposing factions, because they automatically lose if someone else on their team has more gold than them. This game also awarded gold for being the first or second to vote for the player who ended up being lynched.

Another possibility is decreasing gold rewards for vigilantism/protections to the point where you have to choose between whether you want to be wealthy, or you want to eliminate scumbags.

There's also the option of having a duel system for two pirates to duke it out each day (like Midgard), and for players to bet on the outcome.

Problem: Eliminating the Spanish was too easy.

Solution: Extreme ambiguity in night feedback and updates. We only see dead bodies in the updates. You don't receive any feedback for the actions you took at night - draw your own conclusions. Stuff like that.

Another thing to consider is requiring the town to eliminate converts as well, but this is questionable. It doesn't make much sense story-wise, and it means the mafia aren't mafia at all, but a cult (and all of the connotations that comes with).

Consider enabling the Spanish to have a strong alibi for doing townie things, while secretly doing Spanish things.

Maybe even allow the officers/Captain to be recruited if they started out the game as corruptible. This would avoid a situation like in this game, with an unstoppable townie triumvirate of booty.

[TinCow]

What worked well? What didn't? What needs some improvement?

I think you've got most of it down just fine. The loss of Arjos was just bad luck, and Spaniards had a combination of bad luck and some errors. I don't really think the mechanics themselves contributed too greatly to the scum defeats. The stealing/guarding mechanic was broken in hindsight, though I don't think it occurred to most of us to try and exploit it. I certainly didn't even think about it until you had posted your warning about not doing it. While me getting caught on N3 was instrumental in uniting Zacc and I, it was totally unintentional. I believe the same was true for 'khaan that night. That said, it needs to be changed to prevent the proposed tactic from being used in the future, as it's public knowledge now. One option is to simply ditch the steal/guard mechanic, but it's a fun one and would be a shame to lose it. Another option is to give the mafia the ability to guard/steal as a free second nightly action on any night when they are not in a vig/prot group. That would prevent guard/steal from being used as a clearing mechanism. It would also potentially give the mafia access to more gold, which they might find useful for bribing people. As this would likely result in more gold for the mafia, you could perhaps make conversion cost a bit of gold to accomplish as well as the letter of marque thing. This would result in greater loss of gold for the mafia, which might make the gold-revealing aspect of the QM block more useful. As it stands now, that information is only useful in a very rare set of circumstances, none of which have occurred yet in either game.

Another option would be to give a more tangible reward for gold, namely buying items that give you useful but minor and balances abilities in-game. For example, for 25 gold maybe I could buy a pistol that would let me do a single solo kill with a 50% chance of success (pistol breaks afterwards or something). Or maybe for 50 gold I can buy a metal cuirass that would give me a 50% chance of surviving a single attack when unprotected. Or maybe for 15 gold I can buy a cask of ale which I can use to get another pirate so drunk they can't do anything at night (block). Items could be traded and willed between players, just like gold currently. Maybe integrate this into the QM system somehow, so that the QM is the one who sells everything and the Officers get a cut of the profits and know who bought what. You could then add on some kind of hidden black market Scrounger role as a more private source for goods (maybe different goods, better or worse), but one that's harder to find and perhaps charges more.

I really don't think you need to change anything about the Captain situation though. There are plenty of ways to unseat the Captain right now, so I don't think you need more. If you do want to weaken the role a bit further, I'd say make an attempt be possible on the Captain's life even if only one of the Officers is in on the job. Maybe make it so the attempt is possible, but at a 50% chance of success. Or perhaps allow the QM to solo remove all protection for a single night by roleblocking the FM, and vice-versa by having the FM kill the QM. Both would probably need to result in a reveal of the FM/QM's action in the write-up though.

At the same time, I'm not sure I like the Frenchman's ability to win with the town. If you're going to make a win with the town possible, then you should also make a win with the mafia possible. A town-win Frenchman essentially becomes a pro-town power role, and the role is intended to be a true third party. Having the Frenchman be able to bargain and play sides is great, but he can't play sides if there's only one side he can join.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Good stuff so far, I'll wait until there's more before making a long response, but for now just a quick bit:

At the same time, I'm not sure I like the Frenchman's ability to win with the town. If you're going to make a win with the town possible, then you should also make a win with the mafia possible. A town-win Frenchman essentially becomes a pro-town power role, and the role is intended to be a true third party. Having the Frenchman be able to bargain and play sides is great, but he can't play sides if there's only one side he can join.

The only person that the Frenchman couldn't win with was the Spanish Special Officer. The two Guardacosta Lieutenants had a bit of red text in their role PMs that said that if the Special Officer died, they were allowed to go the gold-pursuing route as well as the usual mafia route, which would have allowed them to work with the Frenchman. Obviously, Double A died the same night as the last original Guardacosta so this mechanic never kicked in, but I did have this in mind when balancing things.

[Zack]

To expand on TinCow's suggestion, recruitment by outright bribery might be an interesting mechanic. For example, instead of scanning for susceptibility or handing out Letters of Marque, the mafia could (by a specific night action) bring a player to a "recruitment" QT, where the mafia can anonymously haggle with the townie for the price of conversion. Ultimately, the townie can choose to either decline the offer, or accept. Thus, conversion is done by bribery, instead of by a forced conversion. Mafia might need to spend a night or two stealing so they can re-acquire enough gold for more recruitment, and so on.

EDIT: Perhaps you could even allow the Captain into the dealing, and allow him to try and bribe the townie to stay with the town. Or something like that.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Thanks to one and all for a great game! I'd now officially like to open this up towards a postgame discussion. I'll be revealing the roles and their mechanics a little later, as well as a general essay about the game, but for now:

What worked well? What didn't? What needs some improvement?

Let me hear what you have to say so that, if and when Pirate Ship Mafia III ever happens, how can it be even better?

First of all, you gotta do it again, and it needs to be soon.

This was over too quick for most of us, and not through any fault of the game host. Not really anyone at fault. Town kicked maybe too much butt this time. That's not a bad way to end a game, most games end with a scum win or town eking out a slim win. A town curb stomp rarely happens except in minis and smalls.

This means we have not quite yet sated our thirst for grog and pirate talk, matey. Pirate Ship III needs to come, and it needs to come in a big way.



_________________________



IMO on game balance:

Game was perfectly balanced the way it was set up. Bottom line, and I'm going to be very strict on this point. I'm not necessarily a fan of allowing Visor to win without meeting his starting win conditions.

Spanish got creamed largely due to decisions they made and missing orders, from what I saw.

In my mind, if I was one of the starting Spanish, the very first thing we do is establish townie cred. Town completely gave everyone a pass who had an alibi. So make one.

All three of the starting peeps needed to be vig-killing or stealing gold. Spanish don't steal gold. Spanish are investigating or recruiting, not vig-killing necessarily. And if all of them are doing it, they're getting their kills in. They're just doing it with the town against the town.

Forgo investigations for a while. Don't even bother with them. Make sure the guy who does the investigating can say "I was here, here, and here on nights X, Y, and Z."

Guess what happens then? Uber townie leader Captain shoot-you-in-the-face Zackbeard doesn't target them at all, and nothing but townies die every single night.

It's not hard.

Simply blending in is part of your job as mafia.

If at any point in the game you need to come up with excuses for what you were doing that night, you're a suspect, and there's several vigilante groups out there. You're toast.

You need to be able to say to Zack, I had X amount of gold I stole from Y. Ask him how much he lost. That's where I was that night.

Townies in this game consciously came up with alibis. That means townies played a sound game.



It's no different when you're mafia. There's nothing town could do in this game that Spanish couldn't do. Had the same powers. The primary job is to blend in.

You can't tell anyone where you were N1, N2, N3, you're done. And since this game setup means starting three of you die, you lose, you can't ever let that happen except by freak chance. Oh well, we got busted N3 on a random vig kill. They still won't know about it until D6. And that's one.

If need be, you can have the special officer do nothing but investigate until he gets caught. The other two Spanish needed to have alibis.

You can lose your detective. Just get a whole string of scans completed. 6 of them. If those folks die off or get lynched, then be glad you didn't waste your time recruiting them. Later, you can recruit the ones you scanned and are still alive. It's like.... instead of trying to hit the bulls-eye, you shoot, and paint the bulls-eye around the mark where you shot. You can't miss that way.

If you know 6 folks are susceptible by N5, anyone can convert them. You don't need three starters. You can be down to your starter and one convert and still double the size of your team one night, and make it to 6 members the next night.

How about blind conversion?

Recruit 2 people early. Then, have your converts blindly recruit until they die. Every night, without fail. You lose a convert, you lost nothing. You know who lost someone? Town did, and they needed to kill that person and when they needed to kill that person, they weren't killing you.

You also don't miss orders, for any reason. RL happens, but it shouldn't be by choice. Obviously someone made a bad choice one night and died the very next day.


_______________________________




It's not really my place to second guess the scumteam decision process, you play the game your best and you have fun. My overall point is, this game was in no way broken. Not even a little bit, not even when Zack was the uberlord and conqueror and master and commander, untouchable.

It never had to be that way. If the starting Spanish had done anything to come up with alibis, they wouldn't have been gunned down. And when Monsieur Zackbeard hits nothing but air for 4 straight rounds, he's gone, because people get impatient and some of them want gold. Not enough, apparently, but still. When 4 people get converted back to back, all of a sudden Zack doesn't look so hot anymore.

I've seen broken games. I've played them. I played in a mini game where the entire town was roleblockers. Without exception. And I was a serial killer.

I lost that game not because it was broken. It was completely broken. I still came up with the BS that got me through, and it wasn't until one townie decided to say screw you pizza that town won.

I had a lot of fun that game. But it was beyond broken.

This was in no way a broken game. If town guesses correctly and all three starting Spanish die, that's nobody's fault and it doesn't mean the game was broken.

There was no lame "You can't lynch me" roles in this game. There was no unstoppable protection ring that cannot be defeated because this game had involuntary recruitment, and the Spanish could perfectly blend in with protections.

All Spanish had to do was leave a trail of breadcrumbs. I was here N1. I was here N2.

That's it. It wasn't done, and town killed anyone who couldn't verify their address. And that got all of them.


That's the bottom line. And Visorslash's role, yeah, it's a tough role. It's serial-killer-esque and he had an ally to boot. Not to mention, he could bribe the out of people and there will always be players (like me) who you can bribe because that's just how they are.

There's always gonna be players like BSmith who, if you bribe them, you've wasted your money. Visor guessed wrong choosing BSmith as an ally. He guessed right with me, because as I told GH, if BSmith was on board with killing Zack, even after everything was revealed to Zack himself, nuts to the consequences, I would have killed Zack to help out such an awesome role, like the game was designed.

I don't care if I died that night, and I did anyway. It would have been glorious and fun, and I would have gotten a lot of money. I might have skipped off the ship that next day, but it would have been fun.


Visorslash's role was perfectly fine as-is.

This game needs no improvement. As a guy who has hosted maybe even more games than the venerable GH, on lots of different forums, take this to the bank. The game setup was beyond solid.

If you want to tweak it and make gold = a way of converting, that would be icing on the next cake. I do like that idea a whole lot.

But don't break the game by diverting away from this setup too much.

I bet you if we replayed this game, right now, totally different outcome. And we'd still have fun. Even knowing what the setup was and the same rules.

Solid game.




Feel free to disagree with me. I'm just a player too. I might host and moderate but I'm not always right. But I know this, if I'm starting mafia this game, I have been given the tools I needed. Can't fault GH one bit.

[Askthepizzaguy]

In response to specific points/questions from GH:

I debated on whether or not to make conversions public in the writeups. One or two of you have said not to do it, what do the rest of you guys think?

Useful to the town, can take it or leave it.

If the scum are on their A-game, this might have been vital and necessary for town to know. As it stands it was a trump card we didn't need because we were always in good position.

It's not broken, you assume anyone who isn't the 3 officers can be converted every night. At no point do you give anyone else a pass. So knowing there's recruitment going on doesn't really prove anything.

It leaves a conflict with your alibi if you have to convert that night and can't because vigilantism. So what?

Break from the vig group and convert. Still gotta figure out which one of four or five abandoned their post. It's still not broken.

...As for revealing both who got stolen from and who did the stealing, possibly the only thing I'd tweak this game if I was hosting it would have been to limit it to just the person who got caught. No need to also prove that player X was guarding that night.

Or, if you wished to beef up the Spanish in any way, the smallest tweak: Allow them to do protections and their normal actions (as in this game), but also allow them to guard their gold and do their normal actions.

That should completely silence any grumblings. That's more than you need to do, really. Actually greedy fun-loving players won't want to guard/steal ad infinitum. Winning by brute force is lame and most of us don't want to. So I still feel this is unnecessary but you can put it in to ensure there can be no brute force wins, at all. Not even waste our time on the attempt.

[Zack]

It might have been your most entertaining move, but it didn't advance your win condition a whit. You could have just said no, screw off Pizza, and accomplished the same, or ordered me off the ship with the same results. Face it, you wanted to get some additional screwjob points on your mafia resume. Heck- That's the entire premise to my play this game. Just be honest about it. The idea that it advanced a town win or even a personal Zack win are both inaccurate.

I was a lying backstabbing greedy... townie.

How can you deny it helped a personal Zack win? It ended all (significant/threatening) mutinous conspiring right then and there. Intimidation and reminding everyone who's boss is a big part of mafia.

[TinCow]

Actually greedy fun-loving players won't want to guard/steal ad infinitum. Winning by brute force is lame and most of us don't want to. So I still feel this is unnecessary but you can put it in to ensure there can be no brute force wins, at all. Not even waste our time on the attempt.

Uh... weren't you the one who proposed the guard/steal plan in the first place?