Britain No Longer Values Free Speech

[naut]

Man Jailed for Offensive T-shirt

Why does this man deserve jail time for voicing his own (idiotic) opinions? Surely the ridicule and shame of the situation is enough punishment? Why does the state feel the urge to police the words and thoughts of the nation?

Hitchins would roll in his grave!

[Sasaki Kojiro]

This has nothing to do with free speech.

I agree though that jail time is not deserved.

[HopAlongBunny]

Incitement to kill = bad (whether directed at the police or not)

[Papewaio]

Not only would I throw him in jail and not have concurrent sentencing... I as a politician would campaign for such 1% to not be eligible for social welfare for life.

[Major Robert Dump]

Ooooooh, he made fun of dead cops. OMG. He should totally be given the death penatly. If we don't protect the feelings of dead cops, then lots of cute babies and kittens will die and the terrorists win.

The solution to such idiocy is a punch in the face or, perhaps, in the case of the dead cops family, perhaps a harrassment lawsuit. Jail time is stupid. FYI I would also protest Westboro arses being jailed for offensive signs.

[Papewaio]

Remember in the UK death of on duty cops is very rare. So a double homicide of two young female cops lured into an ambush is rather shocking.

[rory_20_uk]

I don't know what should be done with such unpleasant creatures. Coliety generally runs along as people follow basic rules of civillisation. Clearly he doesn't Fining him won't do anything as I imagine he doesn't work. Locking him up costs even more.

I wish we could deport him somewhere to learn what life is like without the police. Jamaica would be one idea.

[Fragony]

Thanks for the tip I heard it has a really nice climate. The street-police should just be disbanded imho there is nothing private security can't do better and at much lower costs.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Man Jailed for Offensive T-shirt

Why does this man deserve jail time for voicing his own (idiotic) opinions? Surely the ridicule and shame of the situation is enough punishment? Why does the state feel the urge to police the words and thoughts of the nation?

Hitchins would roll in his grave!

Pretty sure inciting people to attack the Police is an offense, and a serious one.

As to what Hitchens would say -you couldn't possibly tell. He might say the man deserved to be locked up for being so bloody stupid.

[naut]

As to what Hitchens would say -you couldn't possibly tell. He might say the man deserved to be locked up for being so bloody stupid.

Uhh.... Hitchens was pretty clear on this sort of stuff. He wanted to hear what people had to say, and decide for himself whether it was stupid, or unwarranted, etc. for himself. Read or listen to anything of his on free expression, and his belief in upholding the right to free speech for such atrocious members of society as holocaust deniers, etc.

[rory_20_uk]

In the UK we have Police Support Officers which go along with the police.

The police were outraged as how could these individuals posibly replace a police officer? It takes a lot of practice (and ergo salary) to wear a high-viz jacket, walk around and talk to people! Currently it seems to be one PSO with one police officer that is used but for these activities I agree that less police could be used and consequently there would be more persons on the streets.

[Ronin]

what about 12 weeks in jail for making some jokes on facebook?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technolog...-comments.html

places that have no separation of church and state are ****** up, just saying.

[Kralizec]

My opinion is that it should be tolerated. 8 months is absurd.

There's a still running case in the Netherlands about a guy who wore a shirt with ACAB on it. He was convicted of a 200 Euro fine at one point, but the Supreme Court overturned it; in our system meaning the case has to be redone. So another court redid the case and found him not guilty because the acronym ACAB isn't widely known so it can't be considered an insult. Recently the Supreme Court overturned that verdict as well, so it has to be redone again. lolz.

[Slyspy]

Either take action against the man himself or against the first person who kicks the crap out of him. I know which one seems fairer to me. Jail time seems a little daft though, but I'm guessing that the man doesn't have any money with which to pay a fine and that even if he did it would just be government money anyway.

[Major Robert Dump]

That T shirt is not incitement.

Incitement is saying "I'll give you $50 to kill a cop"

Incitement is not "Dead cops are awesome!" What, is someone going to say "ooooh I want to be awesome" and go kill some cops?

People have brains and free will. You people are shallow

[rvg]

Saddening. The stifling of the free usually starts off small like this, then before you know it the free speech is nothing but a distant memory. On the positive side, if this trend continues, it'll piss off a whole bunch of bright people who might pack their bags and move to America.

[InsaneApache]

My first wife was born in Radcliffe. I think they should lock her up too.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Either take action against the man himself or against the first person who kicks the crap out of him.

How about, take no action against the man himself, and give the person who kicks the crap out of him a slap on the wrist.


Although in this case it seems like half the sentence is from some prior deal, and he has some mental illness and was not even wearing the t-shirt in response to the cop killings.

[rory_20_uk]

How about, take no action against the man himself, and give the person who kicks the crap out of him a slap on the wrist.


Although in this case it seems like half the sentence is from some prior deal, and he has some mental illness and was not even wearing the t-shirt in response to the cop killings.

To the first point, I personally have sympathy, but mob justice or corporal punishment by proxy isn't a clever idea.

As to the second, he got 4 months for a previously suspended sentence. As to it being a coincidence that sounds like a defence lawyer rather than something that is likely.

[Strike For The South]

something something Hitler

something something the death of civilzation

[Rhyfelwyr]

Freedom of expression came about as an ideal at a time when there was mass oppression of any sort of dissenting political/religious beliefs.

It is from that context that the ideal comes from, and it has been achieved for a while now in the UK.

It was never about letting people walk around in public openly mocking the recently deceased regardless of how their family etc might feel.

The slippery slope doesn't come into things here.

[Kralizec]

Freedom of expression came about as an ideal at a time when there was mass oppression of any sort of dissenting political/religious beliefs.

It is from that context that the ideal comes from, and it has been achieved for a while now in the UK.

It was never about letting people walk around in public openly mocking the recently deceased regardless of how their family etc might feel.

The slippery slope doesn't come into things here.

People from the early modern age who defended freedom of expression were often pretty radical, using and defending examples that are relevant even today and not entirely acceptable to everyone.

John Stuart Mill, if I recall correctly, defended the right of a guy who called for the assassination of Napoleon III. An analogue of this day would be Pat Robertson suggesting that the CIA should assassinate Hugo Chavez. Lot's of outrage here and there, but as far as I know he wasn't prosecuted and I don't know of any attempts to outlaw this kind of speech in reaction to what he said.

Mill also felt however that besides legal restrictions there are also societal restrictions; people could be ostracised for what they expressed and that can be just as bad as any action of the government. Public acceptance of freedom of speech is just as important. Every now and then there's the call to ban flag burning in the USA, and he would have disliked not just the proposal but also the fact that it enjoys meaningful support.

I'm leaning towards Mill without entirely agreeing. I think the difference between encouraging others to commit a crime and paying them to commit that crime can be extremely small, so the former should be punishable under some conditions. What the guy in the OP did doesn't qualify for punishment. I would not be happy if people were to deny him access to shops or whatever (social ostracisation) but seeing as how that also touches upon others' freedoms that's neither here nor there.

There hasn't been a perfect legal right of expression in any European country as far as I'm aware. Exceptions that are ultimately justified by "it just might harm public order" or "it would emotionally hurt some" are commonplace. Personally I think that punitive sanctions should require some additional reason above and beyond those two.

[naut]

something something Hitler

something something the death of civilzation

Yes, I evoked the great Godwin, I admit my mistake. This is the quote I was thinking of:

My own opinion is a very simple one. The right of others to free expression is part of my own. If someone’s voice is silenced, then I am deprived of the right to hear. Moreover, I have never met nor heard of anybody I would trust with the job of deciding in advance what it might be permissible for me or anyone else to say or read. That freedom of expression consists of being able to tell people what they may not wish to hear, and that it must extend, above all, to those who think differently is, to me, self-evident.

This is what I was trying to say about this particular situation.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

What does any of that have to do with "One less pig--perfect justice. Killacop4fun.com...ha, haaaa?"

Is that his "voice"? Would you really describe it as him expressing a thought and "telling people what they may not wish to hear"?

[Fragony]

Saddening. The stifling of the free usually starts off small like this, then before you know it the free speech is nothing but a distant memory. On the positive side, if this trend continues, it'll piss off a whole bunch of bright people who might pack their bags and move to America.

Wearing an ACAB shirt isn't a good idea in America either. I like living in the Neds freedom of speech is just about limitless to the point of it being outright shocking to foreigners, but you don't get away with everything either. Shirt like that won't get you into trouble but why would you wear one it's just thoughtless.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

double post

[Fragony]

What does any of that have to do with "One less pig--perfect justice. Killacop4fun.com...ha, haaaa?"

Is that his "voice"? Would you really describe it as him expressing a thought and "telling people what they may not wish to hear"?

It crosses a line imho, but you can also jail every rapper since Gilles de la Tourette if you go there.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

OH come on guys, this guy was walking around three hours after the WPC's were shot wearing this thing.

He's not making a political point - he's just vile.

[Fragony]

Yeah but what can you do about it, vile yes, very

[Rhyfelwyr]

This is a real example of infringing on freedom of speech.

Men arrested for distributing National Front leaflets.