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Thread: Maritime abortions

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    Sovereign Oppressor Member TIE Fighter Shooter Champion, Turkey Shoot Champion, Juggler Champion Kralizec's Avatar
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    Default Maritime abortions

    No, this is not about whales.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/1...n_1939273.html

    For those of you who've not heard of this before: Women on Waves is an organisition that occasionally sends out a ship under Dutch flag to countries where abortions are illegal. Women, residents of that particular country, who are involuntarily pregnant then board the ship. The ship leaves the port and travels outside national waters so that abortions (the early ones that don't require surgery) can be performed without technically violating any national law. Hence the Dutch nickname "abortion boat".

    At least, that's their reputation. Early in their existence they didn't have the actual permits to dispense abortifacients. Publicly they were vague about it, but when asked they said that they did not actually perform abortions because they were not legally allowed to do so. Instead they would just sail to Ireland, Spain or whatever to troll the authorities. Since then I think they actually have gone through with providing abortions, but I could be wrong. In any case according to them the more important point is to inspire debate and convince these countries to relax their laws, since they could never hope to help more than a handful of women on any trip.

    Morrocco is apparently the first islamic country they travelled to, previous destinations were all catholic countries. Predictably, the Moroccan government refused them access.

    Not everyone over here is a fan of the organisation. I'd expeced that most of the detractors would be pro-life conservatives - relatively rare over here, but they exist. Surprisingly however I've seen a lot of comments saying that this organisation is "imperialist", imposing western cultural norms on other countries. Ridiculous statements, I think. I might write a post on why I think it's ridiculous if someone here agrees with them, otherwise it would be redundant.

    Thoughts?

  2. #2
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Maritime abortions

    One big pr-stunt, they were already there they were out for a confrontation with Marocco, NOS did a good job for a change. They should just **** off we have no business telling Marocco what to do.

    Agree with him http://www.geenstijl.nl/mt/archieven...e_ab.html#more (Dutch)

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    Upstanding Member rvg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Maritime abortions

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralizec View Post
    Thoughts?
    Depends entirely whether or not they provide abortions for everyone with no questions asked or whether they make the decision on the individual basis. The former is abhorrent, the latter is understandable.
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    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Maritime abortions

    Quote Originally Posted by rvg View Post
    Depends entirely whether or not they provide abortions for everyone with no questions asked or whether they make the decision on the individual basis. The former is abhorrent, the latter is understandable.
    I'd say the latter is horrible, the former is good.

    As for the boat, I love it. And I do agree with them that success isn't about performing individual abortions, but rather to provoke a debate which may make abortion legal sometime in the future.

    The more conserative the country is, the more the boat is needed.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Maritime abortions

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    I'd say the latter is horrible, the former is good.

    As for the boat, I love it. And I do agree with them that success isn't about performing individual abortions, but rather to provoke a debate which may make abortion legal sometime in the future.

    The more conserative the country is, the more the boat is needed.
    Their country their rules. If they don't tell me how to live my life I'll politely return the favour. There are more pressing matters like abuse of women on our own soil, things like forced marriage between direct cousins, honour killings and domestic violence. But that gets you disaproving looks at party's as you just got to respect that. Easy to taunt Marocco they can't claw out your eyes. Marocco ain't all that conservative by the way it's hardly Saudi Arabia it's pretty modern
    Last edited by Fragony; 10-08-2012 at 14:28.

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    Sovereign Oppressor Member TIE Fighter Shooter Champion, Turkey Shoot Champion, Juggler Champion Kralizec's Avatar
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    Default Re: Maritime abortions

    "Their country their rules"

    And the organisation isn't breaking those rules. They're merely removing individuals from the jurisdiction of that country, so that abortions can be performed legally. I know some countries have tried to outlaw that, which opens another can of worms. But I digress.

    Anybody who knows enough and has the money can avoid bans like these by:
    A) going to a country where abortion is legal
    B) find a good doctor in Morocco who performs the procedure anyway

    People who are outraged by what this organisation does tend to focus a lot on that it's a Dutch organisation doing something in another part of the world. I just don't get it.

    I think that states should allow abortions, at least in the early stages of pregnancy. Morocco's ban on abortion is stupid and I support everyone who tries to get around it. Wether you agree or not is a matter of opinion. Women on Waves thinks it's an important women's rights issue and therefore tries to raise awareness of the issue and offers the procedure to women in countries where it's not available. Good for them. The argument that we should remain blind for what goes on in other countries, and that this organisation shouldn't do what it does, because the Netherlands is not a paradise with absolutely no problems is ridiculous.

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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Maritime abortions

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralizec View Post
    "Their country their rules"

    And the organisation isn't breaking those rules. They're merely removing individuals from the jurisdiction of that country, so that abortions can be performed legally. I know some countries have tried to outlaw that, which opens another can of worms. But I digress.

    Anybody who knows enough and has the money can avoid bans like these by:
    A) going to a country where abortion is legal
    B) find a good doctor in Morocco who performs the procedure anyway

    People who are outraged by what this organisation does tend to focus a lot on that it's a Dutch organisation doing something in another part of the world. I just don't get it.

    I think that states should allow abortions, at least in the early stages of pregnancy. Morocco's ban on abortion is stupid and I support everyone who tries to get around it. Wether you agree or not is a matter of opinion. Women on Waves thinks it's an important women's rights issue and therefore tries to raise awareness of the issue and offers the procedure to women in countries where it's not available. Good for them. The argument that we should remain blind for what goes on in other countries, and that this organisation shouldn't do what it does, because the Netherlands is not a paradise with absolutely no problems is ridiculous.
    Yes they are breaking rules there is such a thing as good manners which includes never imposing yourself on others, you won't find it in any lawbook no, as that's all cold formalities. They refuse to accept that things are different there and they very much ought to have better things to do if they really care about women's rights. Attention whore's who do it safe, that's what they are, go out walking a la 'Femme de le la rue' I dare them to do that, but they are probably allready in their 99% white (every series needs a colored guy) neighbourhoods. You CAN have abortions in Marocco by the way there are even specialized clinics (friend told me don't hurt me if that's bull). But what fun is that if you have to flag a territory.
    Last edited by Fragony; 10-08-2012 at 15:13.

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    Sovereign Oppressor Member TIE Fighter Shooter Champion, Turkey Shoot Champion, Juggler Champion Kralizec's Avatar
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    Default Re: Maritime abortions

    The organisation helps people avoiding a stupid law without risking criminal prosecution. Good manners have nothing to do with it, what matters is wether they crossed the law or not. Of course you don't have to like it.

    So according to you, noboby should do (volunteer) work for an idealist cause unless they grew up in multi-racial slums? I don't know wether the members of the organisation are from privileged backgrounds, and I don't think it's important. I really don't see why they deserve all these personal attacks. I can only imagine that you lash out against them because you don't agree with their ideas on abortion. And that you ironically defend their culture because you agree with it in this case.

    Yes, you can have abortions in Morocco if you know the right people. And maybe there are specialised clinics for it. But that's despite the fact that it's illegal. Presumably, the women who would have visited the abortion boat are unmarried women with not enough money or who don't have the right connections to dodge the law in their own country except by falling off the stairs or hiring some hack to "help" them in a dark alley.

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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Maritime abortions

    'Yes, you can have abortions in Morocco if you know the right people. And maybe there are specialised clinics for it. But that's despite the fact that it's illegal. Presumably, the women who would have visited the abortion boat are unmarried women with not enough money or who don't have the right connections to dodge the law in their own country except by falling off the stairs or hiring some hack to "help" them in a dark alley.'

    common man they are a bunch of narcistic b*tches, I wonder how long how long they would be absolutely horrified once one of the women they really really just wanted to help gets murdered by her family.

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    Member Member Greyblades's Avatar
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    Default Re: Maritime abortions

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    Yes they are breaking rules there is such a thing as good manners which includes never imposing yourself on others, you won't find it in any lawbook no, as that's all cold formalities.
    The rest of your post is opinion that I disagree with and mostly ignore, but what rules are they breaking presicely and who are they imposing on? They park themselves in port and arrange treat any woman who shows up willingly outside of the teritorial boundaries. They're not breaking any laws or they would have been arrested already, and, even ignoring that thier actions cost the governments or locals nothing, there are apparantly several moroccans/irish/spanish women want them there so they aren't exactly imposing.
    Being better than the worst does not inherently make you good. But being better than the rest lets you brag.


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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Maritime abortions

    Quote Originally Posted by Greyblades View Post
    The rest of your post is opinion that I disagree with and mostly ignore, but what rules are they breaking presicely and who are they imposing on? They park themselves in port and arrange treat any woman who shows up willingly outside of the teritorial boundaries. They're not breaking any laws or they would have been arrested already, and, even ignoring that thier actions cost the governments or locals nothing, there are apparantly several moroccans/irish/spanish women want them there so they aren't exactly imposing.
    They might not be breaking any formal laws but they are breaking promises they can't keep, it's cruel and senseless and very egocentric.

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    Member Member Greyblades's Avatar
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    Default Re: Maritime abortions

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    They might not be breaking any formal laws but they are breaking promises they can't keep, it's cruel and senseless and very egocentric.
    "Breaking promises they cant keep"? What does that even mean? And how the is it cruel?
    Being better than the worst does not inherently make you good. But being better than the rest lets you brag.


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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Maritime abortions

    Quote Originally Posted by Greyblades View Post
    "Breaking promises they cant keep"? What does that even mean? And how the is it cruel?
    You see anything changing there soon?

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    A Member Member Conradus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Maritime abortions

    How is that a promise they made?

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    Default Re: Maritime abortions

    Safe legal abortions for women in need...this is a problem?

    The real outrage of course is allowing access to ppl w/o the prerequisites of money and power.
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    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Maritime abortions

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    Their country their rules.
    I have exactly zero respect for national borders, or tyranny in general.

    It is a duty for every civilized man to force countries to allow abortions. Human rights are universal, not country-specific.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Maritime abortions

    Did anyone ever tell you that you can be scary
    Last edited by Fragony; 10-08-2012 at 19:24.

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    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Maritime abortions

    When you join the UN, you explicitly agree that it's OK for other nations to meddle with your "internal affairs", like your (lack of) democracy, your laws, etc.

    Morocco is a member of the UN. I see no problem.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

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    Member Member Greyblades's Avatar
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    Default Re: Maritime abortions

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    Did anyone ever tell you that you can be scary
    Funny, I have been thinking the same thing about you for 2 years.
    Being better than the worst does not inherently make you good. But being better than the rest lets you brag.


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    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: Maritime abortions

    I lean towards imperialism. I really don't have a problem with what they are doing but I just know if I met these people in real life they would be overflowing with burden.

    The west still sees other cultures as primitive and backwards and still has the same need to bring them up to speed

    Horetore is probably the most xenophobic, in that sense
    Last edited by Strike For The South; 10-08-2012 at 20:39.
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    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Maritime abortions

    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
    I lean towards imperialism. I really don't have a problem with what they are doing but I just know if I met these people in real life they would be overflowing with burden.

    The west still sees other cultures as primitive and backwards and still has the same need to bring them up to speed

    Horetore is probably the most xenophobic, in that sense
    Hah!

    Tyrannic ruler =/= general population.

    If a Moroccan woman wants an abortion, saying that she should be able to have one is not xenophobic, imperialist or whatever. Her culture is not backwards, it is her culture which says it's fine. To put it into your argument: all I'm saying is that the woman in questions should be free to do as is her culture, without interference from those who wre of a different culture.

    Also, the woman-hating antiabortion folks are the same all over the world, and the less influence they have, the better.




    But kudos for the red herring you threw in my face, of course
    Last edited by HoreTore; 10-08-2012 at 21:46.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

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    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Maritime abortions

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    Hah!

    Tyrannic ruler =/= general population.

    If a Moroccan woman wants an abortion, saying that she should be able to have one is not xenophobic, imperialist or whatever. Her culture is not backwards, it is her culture which says it's fine. To put it into your argument: all I'm saying is that the woman in questions should be free to do as is her culture, without interference from those who wre of a different culture.

    Also, the woman-hating antiabortion folks are the same all over the world, and the less influence they have, the better.




    But kudos for the red herring you threw in my face, of course
    You're a terrible person because you believe you are right.

    The idea a woman has a "right" to an abortion is merely a cultural construct - Moroccan women who want abortions are not of a "different culture" to those who think nobody should ever have an abortion.

    Moroccans have the right to self determination - over here we bankrupt people who refuse to accommodate homosexuals in their hotels, there they deny women abortions.

    In every society there are winners and loses - I can tell you as a Christian in a publicly secular society, I'm not very happy, if I want to be accepted in certain places or in certain careers I have to pretend to be something I'm not.

    Sound like any other minority group you know?
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    Part-Time Polemic Senior Member ICantSpellDawg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Maritime abortions

    Abortion is unjust homicide. People who travel to a country simply to kill the unborn are contemptible.
    Travel to these countries to dispense birth control or educate a repressed population and you've got my support. Go there to kill innocent human's and you don't.
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    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Maritime abortions

    Quote Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla View Post
    You're a terrible person because you believe you are right.

    The idea a woman has a "right" to an abortion is merely a cultural construct - Moroccan women who want abortions are not of a "different culture" to those who think nobody should ever have an abortion.

    Moroccans have the right to self determination - over here we bankrupt people who refuse to accommodate homosexuals in their hotels, there they deny women abortions.

    In every society there are winners and loses - I can tell you as a Christian in a publicly secular society, I'm not very happy, if I want to be accepted in certain places or in certain careers I have to pretend to be something I'm not.

    Sound like any other minority group you know?
    I completely disregard the idea of a nation state, and I also disregard "culture". Hello, I'm an international commie bastard, is this your first encounter?

    The Moroccan woman believes she has the right to an abortion. I believe she has a right to abortion, thus I support her. Self-setermination on a national level is nonsense and worthless when it comes to questions of individual rights. The Moroccan people have no business telling their women what to do, sorry.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  25. #25

    Default Re: Maritime abortions

    The Moroccan people have no business telling their women what to do, sorry.
    "The laws of Moroccan men do not apply to Moroccan women; the Moroccan women do not fall under the legal jurisdiction of the Moroccan men, who are equivalent to the Moroccan state."?

    or

    "Moroccan men and women have no business telling Moroccan women what to do. For a Moroccan woman to perform any action whatsoever entails massive dissonance and an egregious disregard of her own rights."?

    Care to reformulate that?

    Self-setermination on a national level is nonsense and worthless when it comes to questions of individual rights.
    I thought the collective holds precedence over the individual? Is that only when you disagree with the individual?
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  26. #26
    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Maritime abortions

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    "The laws of Moroccan men do not apply to Moroccan women; the Moroccan women do not fall under the legal jurisdiction of the Moroccan men, who are equivalent to the Moroccan state."?

    or

    "Moroccan men and women have no business telling Moroccan women what to do. For a Moroccan woman to perform any action whatsoever entails massive dissonance and an egregious disregard of her own rights."?

    Care to reformulate that?
    Something along the lines of:

    "The Moroccan people has no business making laws which curb the rights of any minority or individual."

    Abortion is a right, and so Morocco(or any other country) has no business outlawing it. If they do, we have an obligation to poke our noses in and try what we can to change it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    I thought the collective holds precedence over the individual? Is that only when you disagree with the individual?
    No, only when discussing economics. In social matters, I'm closer to Bakunin.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

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    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
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    Default Re: Maritime abortions

    If you want individual rights as the highest level become a Texan.

    Communism is the community above the individual.
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    Default Re: Maritime abortions

    Quote Originally Posted by Papewaio View Post
    If you want individual rights as the highest level become a Texan.

    Communism is the community above the individual.
    I'm Norwegian, which means I'm a brainwashed social-democrat like the rest of our population, not a commie. A side-effect of the brainwashing is that we're scared of Texans.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  29. #29

    Default Re: Maritime abortions

    Hello, I'm an international commie bastard
    I'm a brainwashed social-democrat like the rest of our population, not a commie
    There's a double-think joke in there...
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    Default Re: Maritime abortions

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    There's a double-think joke in there...
    Depends on the time of day and amount of drink.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

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