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Thread: The Banality of Heroism
Millgram showed humanity is capable of anything when they are not responsible themselve, I expect it to be the same for heroism. It's an interesting question.
IMO being a hero is not undertaking an action, but undertaking that action with foreknowledge of the risks.
Zimbardo is a hack and his experiment doesn't show anything like what people think it does. He took some college age kids in the 70's and put them into a role playing game and then gave detailed instructions to the jailors about how to act like the fascists they all knew prison guards were.
Those who do the greatest evil are often sociopaths or ideological fanatics. Saints are often quasi-religious zealots as well. It's not situational.
It's not at all clear what "ordinary person" is supposed to mean, and "Evil" has unclear implications as well.
People in very stressful situations often can't keep it together. Those who are able to keep calm often do things we think heroic. Etc.
Those who do the greatest evil are often sociopaths or ideological fanatics. Saints are often quasi-religious zealots as well. It's not situational.
It's not at all clear what "ordinary person" is supposed to mean, and "Evil" has unclear implications as well.
People in very stressful situations often can't keep it together. Those who are able to keep calm often do things we think heroic. Etc.
You must be mistaken with the Asch experiment, people will really go really far. Best example is real-life, the mutiny on the Bounty, it really would shame anything Conrad wrote.
Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro:
Zimbardo is a hack and his experiment doesn't show anything like what people think it does. He took some college age kids in the 70's and put them into a role playing game and then gave detailed instructions to the jailors about how to act like the fascists they all knew prison guards were.
I'm not sure what your point is. The lesson learned from the experiment is how easy it is to knock out the moral compass. Simply change the setting and people will volonteerly play along, even if they hurt like hell by doing it. Zimbardo is a hack and his experiment doesn't show anything like what people think it does. He took some college age kids in the 70's and put them into a role playing game and then gave detailed instructions to the jailors about how to act like the fascists they all knew prison guards were.
Some types of what's getting decribed as heroic, would certainly be descibed as reckless in another situation. And people certainly need to be in a situation that needs heroes to be a hero. Saving people from a burning building needs a burning building so to speak. But there's some traits that helps for becoming heroic. Acting under duress is one. Inspirational and/or positive and charismatic is another. Notable history or physical traits is another.
Originally Posted by rory_20_uk:
IMO being a hero is not undertaking an action, but undertaking that action with foreknowledge of the risks.
so robbing a bank is heroic?IMO being a hero is not undertaking an action, but undertaking that action with foreknowledge of the risks.
Brave, perhaps. Since a hero is considered positive, only actions that are positive could be considered "heroic". But of course that depends on one's outlook.
Originally Posted by rory_20_uk:
Brave, perhaps. Since a hero is considered positive, only actions that are positive could be considered "heroic". But of course that depends on one's outlook.
allright, can relate to that. What you say about brave made me think of some questions, can there be heroism without bravery? how do you call someone who is doing something heroic but with malintent (like negative heroism, because like you say, heroism can only be positive). an example, if one guy fought off 5 attackers to defend a random stranger, we'd call him a hero. if he did it to rob that stranger, how would we call it?Brave, perhaps. Since a hero is considered positive, only actions that are positive could be considered "heroic". But of course that depends on one's outlook.
Originally Posted by rory_20_uk:
Brave, perhaps. Since a hero is considered positive, only actions that are positive could be considered "heroic". But of course that depends on one's outlook.
Old story of a soldier jumping upon a grenade to save his fellow soldiers from death is often a example of heroism. Might be brave and considered "stupid" in the sense of the action to one self, but it is the whole idea of putting other people before yourself, even as for personal risk.Brave, perhaps. Since a hero is considered positive, only actions that are positive could be considered "heroic". But of course that depends on one's outlook.
Would throwing yourself on a grenade even do anything? I can't help but wonder if the human body would be able to negate an explosion and wouldn't any shrapnel would just pass through with minimal power loss?
Originally Posted by Greyblades:
Would throwing yourself on a grenade even do anything? I can't help but wonder if the human body would be able to negate an explosion and wouldn't any shrapnel would just pass through with minimal power loss?
A body, provided the torso is on top of the grenade and not just a hand or leg, will mitigate most of the damage. Would throwing yourself on a grenade even do anything? I can't help but wonder if the human body would be able to negate an explosion and wouldn't any shrapnel would just pass through with minimal power loss?
In ROTC last week we learned how to check a dead body for boobytraps such as a grenade underneath the body. If there is one, you roll the body back on top of the grenade and either roll away or lie on top of the body, depending on who you ask. Either way, the body will take most of the damage and leave you and those around you with minimal harm.
EDIT: also the fact that most of the soldiers who jump on grenades are wearing some sort of body armor or flak vest, which further helps containing the damage.
Originally Posted by Tiaexz:
Old story of a soldier jumping upon a grenade to save his fellow soldiers from death is often a example of heroism. Might be brave and considered "stupid" in the sense of the action to one self, but it is the whole idea of putting other people before yourself, even as for personal risk.
He probably found something before his feet and fell on the genade because of it. Better story that he threw himself on it.Old story of a soldier jumping upon a grenade to save his fellow soldiers from death is often a example of heroism. Might be brave and considered "stupid" in the sense of the action to one self, but it is the whole idea of putting other people before yourself, even as for personal risk.
Originally Posted by Tiaexz:
Old story of a soldier jumping upon a grenade to save his fellow soldiers from death is often a example of heroism. Might be brave and considered "stupid" in the sense of the action to one self, but it is the whole idea of putting other people before yourself, even as for personal risk.
That's a great example to use. If I remember correctly, it was an american soldier on patrol in Iraq, right?Old story of a soldier jumping upon a grenade to save his fellow soldiers from death is often a example of heroism. Might be brave and considered "stupid" in the sense of the action to one self, but it is the whole idea of putting other people before yourself, even as for personal risk.
So, the question is why did he throw himself on that grenade? It must be assumed that it was an instinctive action, I can't imagine him thinking anything, much less weighing the options. Was it a special character trait, or was it something that many others, if not most, would have done if put in that same situation?
Originally Posted by HoreTore:
That's a great example to use. If I remember correctly, it was an american soldier on patrol in Iraq, right?
So, the question is why did he throw himself on that grenade? It must be assumed that it was an instinctive action, I can't imagine him thinking anything, much less weighing the options. Was it a special character trait, or was it something that many others, if not most, would have done if put in that same situation?
There was a British Marine who calmly lay down on top of an IED in Iraq - he calculated that he would probably survive as he was wearing his large pack - he did.That's a great example to use. If I remember correctly, it was an american soldier on patrol in Iraq, right?
So, the question is why did he throw himself on that grenade? It must be assumed that it was an instinctive action, I can't imagine him thinking anything, much less weighing the options. Was it a special character trait, or was it something that many others, if not most, would have done if put in that same situation?
But only just, if he had laid slightly lower, one of the fragments would have gone through his neck.
Then there's the guy who went back into he APC to pull his section clear while it was being strafed by an American A-10. Got the George Cross for that one, as Americans aren't the "enemy".
Originally Posted by HoreTore:
That's a great example to use. If I remember correctly, it was an american soldier on patrol in Iraq, right?
So, the question is why did he throw himself on that grenade? It must be assumed that it was an instinctive action, I can't imagine him thinking anything, much less weighing the options. Was it a special character trait, or was it something that many others, if not most, would have done if put in that same situation?
Its happened more than once:That's a great example to use. If I remember correctly, it was an american soldier on patrol in Iraq, right?
So, the question is why did he throw himself on that grenade? It must be assumed that it was an instinctive action, I can't imagine him thinking anything, much less weighing the options. Was it a special character trait, or was it something that many others, if not most, would have done if put in that same situation?
Originally Posted by :
On December 19, 1941 at the Battle of Hong Kong, Canadian Army Company Sergeant Major John Robert Osborn jumped on a grenade, sacrificing himself to save his men. He was posthumously awarded the Victoria Cross.
On November 7, 1943 at Bougainville, Marine Sergeant Herbert J. Thomas, Jr deliberately fell on a grenade, sacrificing himself protecting nearby Marines.
On September 1, 1950, near Yongsan, Korea, U.S. Army Private First Class David M. Smith noticed an enemy grenade lobbed into his company's emplacement. Pfc. Smith shouted a warning to his comrades and, fully aware of the odds against him, flung himself upon it. Although he was mortally wounded in this display of valor, his act saved 5 men from injury or death.
On February 11, 1954, IDF private Nathan Elbaz was disarming grenades when he noticed one of the grenade's safeties had slipped. He grabbed the grenade and ran from the tent but realized he wouldn't be able to throw the grenade away without harming some of his friends, so he smothered the explosion with his body.[3]
On February 23, 1971, a M35 2½ ton cargo truck was ambushed by a squad of NVA soldiers near An Khê. At one point during the firefight, an NVA soldier threw a fragmentation grenade into the truck's compartment. 21-year-old Specialist Four Larry G. Dahl was the only occupant who heard the grenade land into the truck. Realizing that there was not sufficient time to return it, he immediately threw himself on top of the grenade, saving his comrades' lives but at the cost of his own. Dahl was posthumously awarded the Medal of Honor.
On April 14, 2004, near Husaybah, Iraq, Jason Dunham used his body and helmet to shield others from a grenade explosion - but died shortly afterward from his injuries.
On July 26, 2006, IDF Major Roi Klein, during the Battle of Bint Jbeil jumped on a grenade thrown into the house where Klein and his unit were present and stopped the explosion with his body.
On September 29, 2006 in Iraq, United States Navy SEAL Michael A. Monsoor, died after falling on a grenade.[1]
On Dec. 4, 2006 in the Iraqi capital Baghdad, 19 year old U.S. Army Spc. Ross A. McGinnis was killed instantly when he used his body to smother a grenade, saving the lives of four nearby soldiers.
In 2008 near Sangin in Afghanistan Matthew Croucher used his body and rucksack to pin a grenade to the floor. Suffering "just a nose bleed" as a result [2].
From Wikipedia. On December 19, 1941 at the Battle of Hong Kong, Canadian Army Company Sergeant Major John Robert Osborn jumped on a grenade, sacrificing himself to save his men. He was posthumously awarded the Victoria Cross.
On November 7, 1943 at Bougainville, Marine Sergeant Herbert J. Thomas, Jr deliberately fell on a grenade, sacrificing himself protecting nearby Marines.
On September 1, 1950, near Yongsan, Korea, U.S. Army Private First Class David M. Smith noticed an enemy grenade lobbed into his company's emplacement. Pfc. Smith shouted a warning to his comrades and, fully aware of the odds against him, flung himself upon it. Although he was mortally wounded in this display of valor, his act saved 5 men from injury or death.
On February 11, 1954, IDF private Nathan Elbaz was disarming grenades when he noticed one of the grenade's safeties had slipped. He grabbed the grenade and ran from the tent but realized he wouldn't be able to throw the grenade away without harming some of his friends, so he smothered the explosion with his body.[3]
On February 23, 1971, a M35 2½ ton cargo truck was ambushed by a squad of NVA soldiers near An Khê. At one point during the firefight, an NVA soldier threw a fragmentation grenade into the truck's compartment. 21-year-old Specialist Four Larry G. Dahl was the only occupant who heard the grenade land into the truck. Realizing that there was not sufficient time to return it, he immediately threw himself on top of the grenade, saving his comrades' lives but at the cost of his own. Dahl was posthumously awarded the Medal of Honor.
On April 14, 2004, near Husaybah, Iraq, Jason Dunham used his body and helmet to shield others from a grenade explosion - but died shortly afterward from his injuries.
On July 26, 2006, IDF Major Roi Klein, during the Battle of Bint Jbeil jumped on a grenade thrown into the house where Klein and his unit were present and stopped the explosion with his body.
On September 29, 2006 in Iraq, United States Navy SEAL Michael A. Monsoor, died after falling on a grenade.[1]
On Dec. 4, 2006 in the Iraqi capital Baghdad, 19 year old U.S. Army Spc. Ross A. McGinnis was killed instantly when he used his body to smother a grenade, saving the lives of four nearby soldiers.
In 2008 near Sangin in Afghanistan Matthew Croucher used his body and rucksack to pin a grenade to the floor. Suffering "just a nose bleed" as a result [2].
Why did these people do what they did? If I had to guess, it was because they loved their fellow soldiers more than they loved themselves.
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