National or European

[HoreTore]

Statement:

One cannot be [insert nationality here] without being European, rather [your nationality here] is how you are European.

For example, I'm Norwegian. I am a European. I cannot be just one of the two, I am Norwegian only as a specific form of European. An Englishman can never be just English, being English is his way of being a European.

Thoughts?

[rvg]

There's this place called America... It's full of Swedes, Anglos, Norwegians, Dutchies. None of them are Europeans though.

[HoreTore]

There's this place called America... It's full of Swedes, Anglos, Norwegians, Dutchies. None of them are Europeans though.

Yeah... This is probably a rather dull thread for you yanks. Sorry 'bout that.

[Fragony]

I am not European I am a Dutchie. The Netherlands lies in Europe that's all.

[rvg]

Yeah... This is probably a rather dull thread for you yanks. Sorry 'bout that.

No, not dull at all. I find the European preoccupation with their ethnic backgrounds rather interesting.

[Fragony]

No, not dull at all. I find the European preoccupation with their ethnic backgrounds rather interesting.

They just happen to exist. America is a different place than Europe.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Europe is a continent, a geographic entity. It is not a mark of identity, for me anyway. Well, only in the sense that nations that are near each other are more likely to share some aspects of their culture. For example, I would share a lot of Christian heritage with a Polish person, that would be hard to find outside of Europe.

I also don't understand why a liberal lefty like HoreTore wants to identify as a European, isn't that just another man-made border? We are all just human beings, no?

No, not dull at all. I find the European preoccupation with their ethnic backgrounds rather interesting.

Surely that is more of a political issue in American politics than it is in [most of] Europe?

[Fragony]

Even within nations there are big differences, I can't understand the Frysian language they speak in the north of the Netherlands and the area's below the rivers that cross the Netherlands are really different, more like the Flemish. Europe is a very old place.

[HoreTore]

I also don't understand why a liberal lefty like HoreTore wants to identify as a European, isn't that just another man-made border? We are all just human beings, no?

The argument isn't mine. It was made by the Norwegian foreign minister Espen Barth Eide in a lecture on European identity I attended on saturday.

[rvg]

Surely that is more of a political issue in American politics than it is in [most of] Europe?

I'm not sure what you mean.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

What does being a "European" mean?

[Hax]

No, not dull at all. I find the European preoccupation with their ethnic backgrounds rather interesting.

This.

[Kadagar_AV]

What does being a "European" mean?

That's what I wonder too...

I see myself as 100% Swedish and 100% Austrian. I act and even think differently depending on in which of my two home countries I reside in. I don't consider myself "European" though. It's not natural for me to, say, put Poland's well being before Brazil's. I don't feel more connected to Poland than I do Brazil, just because Poland is a neighbor and Brazil is way away.

Rhyf, however, had an excellent point.

[rory_20_uk]

God put the English Channel there to remind us we are NOT European.

[Gaius Scribonius Curio]

If we resort to semantics - nationality is just a label indicating origin or identity.

In terms of origin I am English, British or European, based on the fact that England is a constituent part of the geographical assemblege that is the United Kingdom. The UK is located within Europe so ditto for that.

But I am also an Australian in terms of citizenship.

I beleive HoreTore was posing the question in terms of identity - but that is a fluid concept based on one's own identification and the views of those surrounding them. If you as an individual wish to identify as one or the other, it is irrelevant unless a sizeable number of others within a social context also accept that identification. If the majority of Norwegians identify themselves and their countrymen as Europeans then the Eide is strictly correct. Again though, he is merely stating is own views.

HoreTore: do you agree with Eide? More importantly, in your opinion do the majority of Norwegians?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

No, not dull at all. I find the European preoccupation with their ethnic backgrounds rather interesting.

What you see as "ethnic" divisions in the US are actual divisions here - case in point, farming co-operatives don't work well in the UK because the rain (although we could make them work better) and as a result British farming works differently to in France.

Europe is a continent, a geographic entity. It is not a mark of identity, for me anyway. Well, only in the sense that nations that are near each other are more likely to share some aspects of their culture. For example, I would share a lot of Christian heritage with a Polish person, that would be hard to find outside of Europe.

I also don't understand why a liberal lefty like HoreTore wants to identify as a European, isn't that just another man-made border? We are all just human beings, no?

Surely that is more of a political issue in American politics than it is in [most of] Europe?

The idea of "Europeanness" is a political construct - just like the nation-state. Declaring Europe a superdentity is a way olitical statement - nothing more.

[Furunculus]

The crucial feature of indirect democracy is the perception of representation, the collective trust in shared aims and expectations that allows the people to put their destiny in the hands of another, safe in the knowledge that even if ‘their’ man doesn’t get the job then the other guy will still be looking after their best interests.

The manner in which this trust is built is the knowledge that you and ‘he’ have a history of cooperation, and that your respective families likewise have a shared social and cultural history of cooperation, all of which allows you to trust that when adversity strikes ‘he’ will act in a predictable and acceptable way.

I simply do not recognise a sufficiently congruent set of aims and expectations to assent to being governed by the common will of the EU.*

Ergo, I recognise a British identity, and that our neighbours are european's of various flavours.



* This should not need saying, but; this does not mean that we should not strive towards harmonious cooperation and collaboration wherever a common viewpoint will bring a more effective outcome.

[gaelic cowboy]

What you see as "ethnic" divisions in the US are actual divisions here - case in point, farming co-operatives don't work well in the UK because the rain (although we could make them work better) and as a result British farming works differently to in France.



The idea of "Europeanness" is a political construct - just like the nation-state. Declaring Europe a superdentity is a way olitical statement - nothing more.

You have co-op's in the UK they just tend to look more like multinationals to continentals than co-ops.

this is a uk co-op with thousands of shareholder farmers, they have the same thing in France or Germany but they have co-op that share machinery or labour etc etc that you dont have.

The rain certainly plays a part in those not being usuable

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

You have co-op's in the UK they just tend to look more like multinationals to continentals than co-ops.

I was talking more about the sort of local co-ops where people share machinery etc - in the UK farmers complain that they can't do that because of the rain. Not quite true - but you can see the point after the famine rains we had this year (for those not aware, roughly 40-60% of British crops were ruined before harvesting this summer).

[Kralizec]

Between different European countries I think the commonalities are more numerous than the differences.

English people might have more in common with Canadians and Australians than with Germans or French. But then again, all of these would fall under the umbrella of "western culture". A German or Frenchman would be able to integrate into Australian society fairly easily. Of course Australia doesn't count as European for obvious reasons.

I'm largely in agreement with Rhy's post, but if this is about the EU, I never saw cultural convergence as the most important reason. I would not object to Turkey's accession if and when they qualify.

Side note: I learned the other day that the Maltese language is Arabic. Imagine my surprise.

[gaelic cowboy]

I was talking more about the sort of local co-ops where people share machinery etc - in the UK farmers complain that they can't do that because of the rain. Not quite true - but you can see the point after the famine rains we had this year (for those not aware, roughly 40-60% of British crops were ruined before harvesting this summer).

I edited my original post to reflect that yes i would agree with that.

on the rain you guys have no idea how bad a year it's being at all at all, we have people with there cattle in since the end of the summer and there are a few horror cases that I heard of anecdotally of june.

[HoreTore]

HoreTore: do you agree with Eide? More importantly, in your opinion do the majority of Norwegians?

I am not sure, which is why I posted here to get more opinions. Eide further claimed that such an understanding was obvious in large parts of europe. He gave Italy as an example, and argued that it's unthinkable for an Italian to identify as Italian, but no European.

He further argued that a lot of Norwegians do not identify as Europeans, which he argued is impossible.

[SoFarSoGood]

Lets try an ancient example; were Spartans and Athenians 'Greek'? Well not 'Greek' perhaps but they would have identified themselves as 'Hellenes' and shared many of the same festivals (Olympic games) and religious conceptions (both revered the Dephic Oracle). But that did not make a Spartan an Athenian or vice versa. They identified themselves with their own particlar type of Hellenism... what they called a polis. Yes they were both Hellenic but it did not make the the same; without a shared polis a shared politics is impossible. I am not Greek or Spanish or French and trying to make us all 'European' doesn't change the fact that identify myself as British.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Between different European countries I think the commonalities are more numerous than the differences.

English people might have more in common with Canadians and Australians than with Germans or French. But then again, all of these would fall under the umbrella of "western culture". A German or Frenchman would be able to integrate into Australian society fairly easily. Of course Australia doesn't count as European for obvious reasons.

I'm largely in agreement with Rhy's post, but if this is about the EU, I never saw cultural convergence as the most important reason. I would not object to Turkey's accession if and when they qualify.

Side note: I learned the other day that the Maltese language is Arabic. Imagine my surprise.

That implie that "European" is a purely geographic designator, though, because the Canadians and Australians have a culture which is about 90% European imports even more so than the Americans -Canada is actually more like Europe than the UK.

I am not sure, which is why I posted here to get more opinions. Eide further claimed that such an understanding was obvious in large parts of europe. He gave Italy as an example, and argued that it's unthinkable for an Italian to identify as Italian, but no European.

He further argued that a lot of Norwegians do not identify as Europeans, which he argued is impossible.

I think he's stretching the point - and Norway is a fairly bad example of "Europeanness" really - if Norway was more "European" is would likely look much more like the UK, which is really a Nordic country that got mugged by the mainland. If identity is a matter of self definition, and most Norwegians do not identify as European, then it follows that Norway is not really part of Europe.

[Greyblades]

I think I am British, therefore I am.
I do not think I am European, therefore I am not.

The only time there should be any other factor in consideration is determining legal citizenship.

[rory_20_uk]

I think I am British, therefore I am.
I do not think I am European, therefore I am not.

The only time there should be any other factor in consideration is determining legal citizenship.

And a quick test to see who has a British passport and who doesn't. Economic migrants can remain with indefinite leave to remain.

[Beskar]

I am a Homo Sapien which resides in a location called "Europe" on an off-coast landmass called "Britain". This is located on a planet called 'Earth' which orbits a star called 'Sol', which is located in the Milky Way galaxy cluster. I am as European as I am British as I am a Terran as I am Milkywayian.

Nothing more to it, really.

[Fragony]

I am a Homo Sapien which resides in a location called "Europe" on an off-coast landmass called "Britain". This is located on a planet called 'Earth' which orbits a star called 'Sol', which is located in the Milky Way galaxy cluster. I am as European as I am British as I am a Terran as I am Milkywayian.

Nothing more to it, really.

Not to you perhaps but europhiles don't see it like that. I do by the way. They are just like multiculti's, they have this sum that needs to be 100

[Ironside]

I'm not sure what you mean.

The latino vote. The black vote. The Cuban vote. etc, etc. I'm not sure if there's still an Italian vote, Irish vote, German vote, etc.
I've not seen the same behavior of naming and focusing, even with the larger and older immigrant waves in Sweden (that is people that can now vote), say Serb/Croats/Bosnians, Iranians and Irakians.

In a way, you're what Horetore is wanting Europe to be: US=Europe with subgroup=country.

I would say that Scandinavian is a stronger self-identification than European in Sweden.

[HoreTore]

In a way, you're what Horetore is wanting Europe to be: US=Europe with subgroup=country.

Is it impossible to post questions or arguments that interest you here, without everyone else assuming that it's your own opinion?