Football and Racism

[HoreTore]

Bah, young people of today, no knowledge of history... Tsk, tsk.

First off, the "black guy in a cage" was all the rage all over Europe during the late 1800's. Heck, we Nordics even had our "Serbs in a cage"-display. I hear the good ladies fainted when they saw the savages...

Anyway, back to football. The actual reason there's a heavy penalty for racism in football has nothing to do at all with racism. I know you follow football closely Sarmatian, I am somewhat surprised you didn't know this. Oh well, I guess it's down to geography.

Hooliganism was an extreme problem a couple of decades ago. People actually got killed, player buses were stoned more often than not, etc. Not just in England either, this happened all over. Heck, even my tiny home town of Mjøndalen saw its share of hooliganism. One of my fathers proudest tales is when he was part of the group who flipped 5 police cars with coppers still inside after a match against Fredrikstad...

After years of doing little but hold each others penises, the various FA's, FIFA and UEFA finally realized that this had to stop: "normal fans" started loosing interest due to the bullies. Would you take your wife and two kids on an away match in England in 1981? I think not...

The crackdown was actually extremely effective. For example, the hooligan culture in Vålerenga's fan club Apeberget(monkey mountain) was completely removed in a single season, and the new fan club Klanen(the clan) is remarkably better. While families tend to stay clear of the F/G-fields, I always see a large number of families in their midst. Unthinkable in the 80's.

The crackdown was effective because it was done on every front thinkable. The police were involved, youth groups were involved, civil authorities were involved, the clubs were involved. Fans were identified, restraining orders were issued by the courts, tickets and club memberships revoked. Security personell were given long lists of markings to look for, and if found the person was denied entry. And now we get to racism: the unwanted fans shared had several things in common. They loved flares. So, flares were banned. They loved racist chants. So, racism was banned.

That's the reason racism is punished severely these days. There's no way flares would've been banned if the hooligans hadn't used them; the fire hazard excuse is lame. And there's no way racism would've been punished so severely if not for the actions of idiot fans three deades ago.

In short: racism is banned because it's a measure to contain unwanted elements and make football attractive to a wider audience, not because of it's inherent characteristics.


And a final word: eastern europe is now on the bottom of the heap when it comes to fan retardism. Serbia, and most famously Red Star, are among the most retarded of the bunch. May they burn the lot of 'em, noone needs their neanderthal brains around a football stadium. Send them to Siberia instead.

[johnhughthom]

I suppose all the other instances of racism in Serbia in the past were the player's fault too, Sarmatian?

Here in Northern Ireland we like to bury our head in the sands too. The IFA and Norn Irn fans pretend that Windsor Park is not a sectarian cesspit anymore, and Catholics should not feel intimidated at international matches. It's not as bad as it was before, but sectarian chanting is still rife.

edit: You're probably going to ask what that has to do with Serbia. Well, about ten years ago there was an incident where a Catholic Northern Ireland player received death threats and abuse from the crowds. I heard the same sort of arguments then, 'oh plenty of Catholic players play for Northern Ireland' 'some of our most popular players are Catholic' 'it's his attitude, not his religion, he doesn't seem to care about playing for Northern Ireland'. I was at the matches, the abuse was nothing to do with any perceived lack of effort, it was animal hatred, pure and simple. As for the 'herd mentality', absolute garbage. Individuals choose how they behave, I was surrounded by people shouting sectarian abuse and was able to refrain from following. Admittedly, I didn't raise an objection, but I like my kneecaps the way they are.

[Sarmatian]

So to attack someone based on which ethnic group they inherited is a very low act not worthy of a modern citizen.

No arguments there. My question is why is an attack on someone's nationality considered rude, and an attack on someone's race a breach rules, involving heavy fines and other penalties?

Bah, young people of today, no knowledge of history... Tsk, tsk.

First off, the "black guy in a cage" was all the rage all over Europe during the late 1800's. Heck, we Nordics even had our "Serbs in a cage"-display. I hear the good ladies fainted when they saw the savages...

They fainted because of the manliness and good looks. Who can blame them, really - their men, who used to wear horned helmets and big axes in the past, are now bunch of pansies.

That's the reason racism is punished severely these days. There's no way flares would've been banned if the hooligans hadn't used them; the fire hazard excuse is lame. And there's no way racism would've been punished so severely if not for the actions of idiot fans three deades ago.

In short: racism is banned because it's a measure to contain unwanted elements and make football attractive to a wider audience, not because of it's inherent characteristics.

Well, fact No.1 is that football is sport for the unwashed masses. Sure, there are yuppies who think it's cool to see a football game nowadays, but the sport is primarily watched by lower and middle class. That was true 150 years ago and is true today. What we're talking about here is not hooliganism but but general rude behavior. Regardless how much an extremely intelligent man that I am can found boos and jeers directed at teenagers distasteful, it is, was and will be a part of football. What you don't do is provoke an audience even more.

Anyhoo, I consider violence much worse than a racist insult, and what should have been talked about, first and foremost, is the all out brawl at the end of the match.

And a final word: eastern europe is now on the bottom of the heap when it comes to fan retardism. Serbia, and most famously Red Star, are among the most retarded of the bunch. May they burn the lot of 'em, noone needs their neanderthal brains around a football stadium. Send them to Siberia instead.

You are a kind and smart man, sir, and I hope football gods hear you. Hopefully Red Star will go the way of Rangers with cca. 65M debt.

I suppose all the other instances of racism in Serbia in the past were the player's fault too, Sarmatian?

Names, dates and places, please.

As I've said, there are idiots and there's always gonna be idiots, but there's no organized and institutional abuse against blacks. Except some far right groups, which exist unfortunately everywhere in the world, no black man will ever be in trouble in Serbia just because the colour of his skin

Here in Northern Ireland we like to bury our head in the sands too. The IFA and Norn Irn fans pretend that Windsor Park is not a sectarian cesspit anymore, and Catholics should not feel intimidated at international matches. It's not as bad as it was before, but sectarian chanting is still rife.

edit: You're probably going to ask what that has to do with Serbia. Well, about ten years ago there was an incident where a Catholic Northern Ireland player received death threats and abuse from the crowds. I heard the same sort of arguments then, 'oh plenty of Catholic players play for Northern Ireland' 'some of our most popular players are Catholic' 'it's his attitude, not his religion, he doesn't seem to care about playing for Northern Ireland'. I was at the matches, the abuse was nothing to do with any perceived lack of effort, it was animal hatred, pure and simple. As for the 'herd mentality', absolute garbage. Individuals choose how they behave, I was surrounded by people shouting sectarian abuse and was able to refrain from following. Admittedly, I didn't raise an objection, but I like my kneecaps the way they are.

That is a very different issue. Northern Ireland has seen a lot of violence and there still is some bad blood between Protestants and Catholics.

I'd be much more inclined to talk about racism, or some other -ism, if the player in question was an Albanian or a Croat. But black? Plee-hee-hee-ease...

[Fragony]

I have yet to meet a Serb or Croation who didn't seriously scare me

[Centurion1]

I have yet to meet a Serb or Croation who didn't seriously scare me

We Croats are lovely people. I have no comment on Serbs. Even Albanians don't like Serbs and I mean.... Albanians dude.

[johnhughthom]

Names, dates and places, please.

How about the last time England under 21s played there, Justin Hoyte and Nedum Onouha were racially abused. UEFA gave Serbia one of their lovely and oh so deterring fines.

As I've said, there are idiots and there's always gonna be idiots, but there's no organized and institutional abuse against blacks. Except some far right groups, which exist unfortunately everywhere in the world, no black man will ever be in trouble in Serbia just because the colour of his skin

Who said anything about institutional racism, are you saying racism is fine so long as it's spontaneous?

That is a very different issue. Northern Ireland has seen a lot of violence and there still is some bad blood between Protestants and Catholics.

Way to miss the point, I'm not talking about the issue, I'm talking about a refusal to admit there is an issue. Do you work for the Serbian FA, you remind me of their statement last week.

[Sarmatian]

How about the last time England under 21s played there, Justin Hoyte and Nedum Onouha were racially abused. UEFA gave Serbia one of their lovely and oh so deterring fines.

Didn't see that game so I can't comment. Will try to find it and see.

Who said anything about institutional racism, are you saying racism is fine so long as it's spontaneous?

Way to miss the point. If you act like a prick and get insulted because of it, with insults ranging from the colour of your skin to size of your nose and sexual habits of your sister, that's not racism in my book. May be rude, but definitely not racism.

Way to miss the point, I'm not talking about the issue, I'm talking about a refusal to admit there is an issue. Do you work for the Serbian FA, you remind me of their statement last week.

Racism is West's issue. It is the issue of anyone who had colonies and was involved with slave trade. We don't have that issue, not because we're better or something, but simply cause we didn't have practically any contact with blacks. Maybe if Serbia had been a colonial empire, involved in slavery and slave trade, with many centuries of racism and treating blacks like subhumans we would have had the same issues Britain has. People here simply don't see blacks in that light and for them there isn't much difference between insulting someone because he has a big nose or because he's black. For you guys, the former is considered rude and the latter a crime basically, for us, both are rude. Those same guys who insulted Danny Rose would go to a bar tomorrow and drink happily with another black guy. For them, Danny Rose was a guy who played for the opposing team and acted like a prick. That's the whole story.

I have yet to meet a Serb or Croation who didn't seriously scare me

What do you mean? We're all warm and cuddly.

[Gaius Scribonius Curio]

@ Sarmatian: I understand what you are trying to say when you state that since the African slave trade never resulted in the Balkans there are less underlying issues.

That said the monkey noises audible in the videos I have seen of the incident do, like it or not, have connotations - that black people are similar, or at least, more similar than white people, to monkeys. That classifies black people as below white people, as sub-human if you will, and that is the issue at stake.

Moreover the violence associated with the end of the game was inexcusable, to my eyes, the England players and coaches, with the exception of Rose, were actively trying to avoid confrontation... Do you have a take on that? Or is it too OT?

[Fragony]

Not the ones I met, can you explain something for me as I never understood it, a Serbian muslim friend of mine is a total fan of Russia (not just the team he hates the people in Afghanistan) what's up with that? It doesn't make sense to me.

Edit,@sams

[InsaneApache]

They should change it to ethnism. Why? There is only one race. Humans.

[Sarmatian]

@ Sarmatian: I understand what you are trying to say when you state that since the African slave trade never resulted in the Balkans there are less underlying issues.

That said the monkey noises audible in the videos I have seen of the incident do, like it or not, have connotations - that black people are similar, or at least, more similar than white people, to monkeys. That classifies black people as below white people, as sub-human if you will, and that is the issue at stake.

The monkey noises were heard at very end of the match, when Rose did everything he could to anger the crowd. My point is that he would have got the exact same treatment were he white, the crowd would just have found different way to express their anger. Therefore, it's not racism as it was directed specifically at Rose.

Moreover the violence associated with the end of the game was inexcusable, to my eyes, the England players and coaches, with the exception of Rose, were actively trying to avoid confrontation... Do you have a take on that? Or is it too OT?

Now, that is a totally different issue. It didn't seem that one sided to me, but anyway it should result in heavy fines and bans for those responsible. That's supposed to be the big issue, not Rose.

Not the ones I met, can you explain something for me as I never understood it, a Serbian muslim friend of mine is a total fan of Russia (not just the team he hates the people in Afghanistan) what's up with that? It doesn't make sense to me.

Edit,@sams

A muslim Serb? Now if that's not cuddly, I don't know what is.

I can't explain his personal views, naturally. There are muslim Serbs who don't let their religion influence their views. People from Yugoslavia in general aren't very religious, communism and all that. It was all the rage in the nineties, especially as it was another way for nationalists to distinguish "us" and "them", but the novelty wore off rather quickly.

[Sir Moody]

Racism is West's issue. It is the issue of anyone who had colonies and was involved with slave trade. We don't have that issue, not because we're better or something, but simply cause we didn't have practically any contact with blacks. Maybe if Serbia had been a colonial empire, involved in slavery and slave trade, with many centuries of racism and treating blacks like subhumans we would have had the same issues Britain has. People here simply don't see blacks in that light and for them there isn't much difference between insulting someone because he has a big nose or because he's black. For you guys, the former is considered rude and the latter a crime basically, for us, both are rude. Those same guys who insulted Danny Rose would go to a bar tomorrow and drink happily with another black guy. For them, Danny Rose was a guy who played for the opposing team and acted like a prick. That's the whole story.

absolute BOLLOCKS

Racism is not an issue "created" by the slave trade it existed long before the slave trade and has outlived it - if anything the Slave trade was made possible BY racism not the other way round

and that last line is like the racist groups over here who start quotes with "I have Black friends BUT..." - it doesn't matter if the hooligans would happily drink in a pub with a Black man - they were Racially abusing Danny Rose and thus they were being Racist - end of story

to be honest you sound like you are trying to bury your head in the sand and are desperately trying to pile more sand on to make it all go away - this isn't the first incident and it wont be the last - your country has a Racism problem in football and you need to deal with it not hide from it