Football and Racism

[johnhughthom]

Names, dates and places, please.

How about the last time England under 21s played there, Justin Hoyte and Nedum Onouha were racially abused. UEFA gave Serbia one of their lovely and oh so deterring fines.

As I've said, there are idiots and there's always gonna be idiots, but there's no organized and institutional abuse against blacks. Except some far right groups, which exist unfortunately everywhere in the world, no black man will ever be in trouble in Serbia just because the colour of his skin

Who said anything about institutional racism, are you saying racism is fine so long as it's spontaneous?

That is a very different issue. Northern Ireland has seen a lot of violence and there still is some bad blood between Protestants and Catholics.

Way to miss the point, I'm not talking about the issue, I'm talking about a refusal to admit there is an issue. Do you work for the Serbian FA, you remind me of their statement last week.

[Sarmatian]

How about the last time England under 21s played there, Justin Hoyte and Nedum Onouha were racially abused. UEFA gave Serbia one of their lovely and oh so deterring fines.

Didn't see that game so I can't comment. Will try to find it and see.

Who said anything about institutional racism, are you saying racism is fine so long as it's spontaneous?

Way to miss the point. If you act like a prick and get insulted because of it, with insults ranging from the colour of your skin to size of your nose and sexual habits of your sister, that's not racism in my book. May be rude, but definitely not racism.

Way to miss the point, I'm not talking about the issue, I'm talking about a refusal to admit there is an issue. Do you work for the Serbian FA, you remind me of their statement last week.

Racism is West's issue. It is the issue of anyone who had colonies and was involved with slave trade. We don't have that issue, not because we're better or something, but simply cause we didn't have practically any contact with blacks. Maybe if Serbia had been a colonial empire, involved in slavery and slave trade, with many centuries of racism and treating blacks like subhumans we would have had the same issues Britain has. People here simply don't see blacks in that light and for them there isn't much difference between insulting someone because he has a big nose or because he's black. For you guys, the former is considered rude and the latter a crime basically, for us, both are rude. Those same guys who insulted Danny Rose would go to a bar tomorrow and drink happily with another black guy. For them, Danny Rose was a guy who played for the opposing team and acted like a prick. That's the whole story.

I have yet to meet a Serb or Croation who didn't seriously scare me

What do you mean? We're all warm and cuddly.

[Gaius Scribonius Curio]

@ Sarmatian: I understand what you are trying to say when you state that since the African slave trade never resulted in the Balkans there are less underlying issues.

That said the monkey noises audible in the videos I have seen of the incident do, like it or not, have connotations - that black people are similar, or at least, more similar than white people, to monkeys. That classifies black people as below white people, as sub-human if you will, and that is the issue at stake.

Moreover the violence associated with the end of the game was inexcusable, to my eyes, the England players and coaches, with the exception of Rose, were actively trying to avoid confrontation... Do you have a take on that? Or is it too OT?

[Fragony]

Not the ones I met, can you explain something for me as I never understood it, a Serbian muslim friend of mine is a total fan of Russia (not just the team he hates the people in Afghanistan) what's up with that? It doesn't make sense to me.

Edit,@sams

[InsaneApache]

They should change it to ethnism. Why? There is only one race. Humans.

[HoreTore]

This is not a class issue, Sarmatian.

In both my clubs(I've lived in two different places and have feelings for them both, yeah I know I'm a sinner), the fan clubs are made up of exactly the same class now as during the 80's. The only real difference is that there are more second gen immigrants in Klanen, due to immigration. It was the hooligan(or whatever you want to call it) culture that was responsible. Once that was removed, the trouble was removed.

Racist chants is a major identifier for these people, and so I welcome hefty fines, bans and so on against it. The stadiums in western europe are much better places to be now, we need to clean up eastern europe next. Take football back from the neanderthals, they shall not be allowed to ruin our wonderful sport.

[Sarmatian]

@ Sarmatian: I understand what you are trying to say when you state that since the African slave trade never resulted in the Balkans there are less underlying issues.

That said the monkey noises audible in the videos I have seen of the incident do, like it or not, have connotations - that black people are similar, or at least, more similar than white people, to monkeys. That classifies black people as below white people, as sub-human if you will, and that is the issue at stake.

The monkey noises were heard at very end of the match, when Rose did everything he could to anger the crowd. My point is that he would have got the exact same treatment were he white, the crowd would just have found different way to express their anger. Therefore, it's not racism as it was directed specifically at Rose.

Moreover the violence associated with the end of the game was inexcusable, to my eyes, the England players and coaches, with the exception of Rose, were actively trying to avoid confrontation... Do you have a take on that? Or is it too OT?

Now, that is a totally different issue. It didn't seem that one sided to me, but anyway it should result in heavy fines and bans for those responsible. That's supposed to be the big issue, not Rose.

Not the ones I met, can you explain something for me as I never understood it, a Serbian muslim friend of mine is a total fan of Russia (not just the team he hates the people in Afghanistan) what's up with that? It doesn't make sense to me.

Edit,@sams

A muslim Serb? Now if that's not cuddly, I don't know what is.

I can't explain his personal views, naturally. There are muslim Serbs who don't let their religion influence their views. People from Yugoslavia in general aren't very religious, communism and all that. It was all the rage in the nineties, especially as it was another way for nationalists to distinguish "us" and "them", but the novelty wore off rather quickly.

[Gaius Scribonius Curio]

The monkey noises were heard at very end of the match, when Rose did everything he could to anger the crowd. My point is that he would have got the exact same treatment were he white, the crowd would just have found different way to express their anger. Therefore, it's not racism as it was directed specifically at Rose.

I appreciate your point but it still denigrates black people - placing them as inferior to white people - on the basis of their skin colour - it is still racism; it is still heavily punishable under FIFA rules; it is still unjustifiable. Even if there was provocation it is clear, in my opinion, that this response was on a far worse level than your standard insult.

[Fragony]

I appreciate your point but it still denigrates black people - placing them as inferior to white people - on the basis of their skin colour - it is still racism; it is still heavily punishable under FIFA rules; it is still unjustifiable. Even if there was provocation it is clear, in my opinion, that this response was on a far worse level than your standard insult.

Yeah this absolutely qualifies. It's calling a black man a monkey it has nothing to do with what he did in the game.

[caravel]

In terms of the fans, football in general attracts real fans but also a minority of (unfortunately very vocal and visible) morons. Enough morons with enough lager and stupidity among them and anything can happen. Racist chanting is just the tip of the iceberg really. Football stadiums are those rare occasions where the great unwashed have a voice and it gets broadcasted for all the world to see. Sometimes it's ugly and this was one such occasion - they don't represent every football fan and certainly not every Serbian.

[Sir Moody]

Racism is West's issue. It is the issue of anyone who had colonies and was involved with slave trade. We don't have that issue, not because we're better or something, but simply cause we didn't have practically any contact with blacks. Maybe if Serbia had been a colonial empire, involved in slavery and slave trade, with many centuries of racism and treating blacks like subhumans we would have had the same issues Britain has. People here simply don't see blacks in that light and for them there isn't much difference between insulting someone because he has a big nose or because he's black. For you guys, the former is considered rude and the latter a crime basically, for us, both are rude. Those same guys who insulted Danny Rose would go to a bar tomorrow and drink happily with another black guy. For them, Danny Rose was a guy who played for the opposing team and acted like a prick. That's the whole story.

absolute BOLLOCKS

Racism is not an issue "created" by the slave trade it existed long before the slave trade and has outlived it - if anything the Slave trade was made possible BY racism not the other way round

and that last line is like the racist groups over here who start quotes with "I have Black friends BUT..." - it doesn't matter if the hooligans would happily drink in a pub with a Black man - they were Racially abusing Danny Rose and thus they were being Racist - end of story

to be honest you sound like you are trying to bury your head in the sand and are desperately trying to pile more sand on to make it all go away - this isn't the first incident and it wont be the last - your country has a Racism problem in football and you need to deal with it not hide from it