Which civilization has the best unit roster in your opinion.

[Catmand0]

As a follow up on my previous thread about who has the worst unit roster and inspired by Seleucid Empire's comment, I figured we should discuss this.

In my opinion, the Romani have the best unit roster. Not because they have truly exceptional units, but because they posses a flexibility and consistency not found in any other Civ. The Cohortes Reformata has the widest AOR in the game. In all of my other campaigns, I find myself getting weaker and weaker the further I get from my homeland area. With the romans, once one gets the marian reform, you have a constantly strong army that fairs well against just about everything, that can be retrained in most nearby controlled city. We all know that having to shlep your battered elite forces half way across the map is a royal pain the ass. Even with the comparably tiny size of their roster, the Romani can effectively supplement what ever their factional armies lack with regional forces and more often then not have enough money to hire mercenaries on the fly.

If we were to go with pure unit roster, then I would say the Seleucids, Carthaginians, and the Macedonians all have an edge.

[seleucid empire]

I agree with Carthage and Seleucids but I would probably take Macedonia off the list and replace them with Epirus. They have the same roster as macedonia except, Epirus gets thoratikai, elephants, and I personally prefer their molossan agema over the hetairoi of Macedonia. The only thing Epirus doesn't have are the reformed phalanxes of Macedonia which have a huge aor ( every single greek city on the map i believe?)

However I still prefer Epirus. Also in most h or VH campaigns the roman ai gets raped by lusos or epirus (unless you are playing with realistic movement, which means that they will dominate Europe 100% of the time) meaning that the Macedonian reforms won't happen anyway.

Rome has a strong roster but it is the units themselves that are strong and flexible, not the roster. Their lack of cavalry means that they will have a hard time facing the eastern superpowers of the ptolemies and Seleucids.

Historically they were stronger but in game, those phalanxes are really tough. Also sinc eit is an ai superpower they will have 50 stacks waiting for you (historically the Romans had far greater manpower reserves but in game this will not be the case)

[Catmand0]

With Roman units I feel that I can out maneuver phalanxes with ease. When I play as the romans, I generally have just one type of army that I build, 12 to 14 cohorts of heavy infantry(Cohortes Reformata or Prinipecs), 3-4 units of kreten archers, and the general plus additional 2-3 cav units.. That all being said, the Seleucids roster is so diverse, you can create many different armies for many different purposes.

[seleucid empire]

With Roman units I feel that I can out maneuver phalanxes with ease. When I play as the romans, I generally have just one type of army that I build, 12 to 14 cohorts of heavy infantry(Cohortes Reformata or Prinipecs), 3-4 units of kreten archers, and the general plus additional 2-3 cav units.. That all being said, the Seleucids roster is so diverse, you can create many different armies for many different purposes.

Yes it's quite diverse, although its not as diverse as you might think. Generally the only type of army you use is the phalanx based ones.

The only time I use non phalanx armies is when I'm short of troops or I create mercenary armies

With Carthage you can have phalanx armies, hoplite armies, heavy infantry armies or a mixture of the three (with assault infantry)

Still I like seleukids more, cause its got the strongest units in the game.

It has a larger variety of units but still only one type of army



Regarding the Romans, have you reached the east yet? Macedonia and Epirus tend to spam really weird units in their armies until they are richer. So you might not be facing the full might of phalanx nations. When you get to the east, you will face the infamous silvershild and klerouchi phalanghites spam. Then the casualties in each battle will begin to be felt. Romes cavalry roster is quite poor for most of the game. Mercenary cav isn't as good as the factional cav of most nations that field cavalry.

The best you can get is probably the Thessalian cavalry and those are barely a match for the prodomoi of the Hellenic kingdoms (unless they are using them really stupidly)

[seleucid empire]

I guess You can make thoratikai armies and light infantry armies as seleukids but they aren't as stable. The standard armies still have phalanxes as their core

With Carthage there are more options. Any one of their heavier units can be used as their army core

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

Any of the Hellenistic factions (minus Makedonia) can make Thorakitai based armies. Use the Thoraks as your line units and Theurophoroi as medium reserve infantry. The Seleukids can do this best since they can recruit a wide array of light infantry types to complement the heavy spear line but the Epeirotes, Ptolemies and Baktrians can come close to matching them.

[I_damian]

Carthage I'd say. Even at the start of the game they have Libyan Spearmen which are just an awesome line infantry for pinning any unit down, good mix of light and heavy cavalry and some awesome archers and slingers if you take Numidia and build type 4 government. As the game goes on you end up with great phalanx units, great infantry, great light, medium and heavy cavalry... pretty much everything. There's not a single other faction in the game you'll struggle against in battle, you have the troops to compose almost any kind of army for any situation.

Only reason I could never play as them is because they're too rich and invincible right from the very start, same as Rome, Ptolemaioi and a few others.

[seleucid empire]

Carthage I'd say. Even at the start of the game they have Libyan Spearmen which are just an awesome line infantry for pinning any unit down, good mix of light and heavy cavalry and some awesome archers and slingers if you take Numidia and build type 4 government. As the game goes on you end up with great phalanx units, great infantry, great light, medium and heavy cavalry... pretty much everything. There's not a single other faction in the game you'll struggle against in battle, you have the troops to compose almost any kind of army for any situation.

Only reason I could never play as them is because they're too rich and invincible right from the very start, same as Rome, Ptolemaioi and a few others.

They have the greatest variety but they are not the top of the line. Each of their units has an equivalent in another faction which has 1 more attack and def

Ps. I don't think ptolemies are that invincible. I hate their roster and they start off with 3 large rebel armies plaguing the borders to the west and south

[Catmand0]

Regarding the Romans, have you reached the east yet? Macedonia and Epirus tend to spam really weird units in their armies until they are richer. So you might not be facing the full might of phalanx nations. When you get to the east, you will face the infamous silvershild and klerouchi phalanghites spam. Then the casualties in each battle will begin to be felt. Romes cavalry roster is quite poor for most of the game. Mercenary cav isn't as good as the factional cav of most nations that field cavalry.

The best you can get is probably the Thessalian cavalry and those are barely a match for the prodomoi of the Hellenic kingdoms (unless they are using them really stupidly)

I have gotten to the east several times. In my Romani Campaigns, I always wait until I get to the Marian Reform before I attack the ptolemy. I find that Cohortes Reformata, supported with a few Kreten Archers and Antesignani/regional or merc cav, does the trick against any spammed fullstack of elite phalanxes. Cohortes Reformata have enough armor and moral to pin down phalanxes and allow for a second unit to flank around. Phalanxes are easy to kill even if they are controlled by a human player IMO, it just takes some more involved micro managing. I can also afford to lose some men, considering that I always have a place close by to retrain them.

While I have enjoyed playing with some of the Phalanx heavy Hellenic civs, and have developed some quite deadly tactics with them, their lack of flexibility and uniformity annoys me. The Romani have the powerhouse heavy sword infantry of a Barbarian factions coupled with the discipline of the Hellenic factions that more than makes up for a lack of heavy cav IMO. While Carthage is an enjoyable campaign, and their military diverse and of good quality in addition to access to some fantastic regional troops, I dont feel like they really excels anywhere.

From your user name I would assume that you really like the Hellenic civs, especially the Seleucids. So I assume you have a very particular strategy that you are very good at based around fighting with phalanxes and super elite cavalry, which if executed right, can be unspeakably devastating. My tactics are based around heavy infantry with ranged support and a few cavalry to mop up routers and possibly to some routing charges. Both of these tactics are highly effective in their own way but has shaped what we think are the best units.

I think we should put our money where our mouths are and meet on the field of battle sometime to test our tactics on the matter.

[seleucid empire]

While Carthage is an enjoyable campaign, and their military diverse and of good quality in addition to access to some fantastic regional troops, I dont feel like they really excels anywhere.

From your user name I would assume that you really like the Hellenic civs, especially the Seleucids. So I assume you have a very particular strategy that you are very good at based around fighting with phalanxes and super elite cavalry, which if executed right, can be unspeakably devastating. My tactics are based around heavy infantry with ranged support and a few cavalry to mop up routers and possibly to some routing charges. Both of these tactics are highly effective in their own way but has shaped what we think are the best units.

I think we should put our money where our mouths are and meet on the field of battle sometime to test our tactics on the matter.

carthage excels at everything which is why i consider them dangerous

The thing that I like about phalanxes is Campaign durability. If I were playing against another player for only One battle I would much rather have Carthage or the Romans to be honest (and maybe 1-2 units of phalanxes since i found 1-2 units very effective in holding the elite units and since they dont make up your main battle line, your line will still be flexible). And also, I don't use as much elite heavy cavalry as most other players. I only really use 2 units of cavalry in my standard armies (either one light, one heavy or 2 medium) so In a way I play Hellenic factions the same way that you play Romans. I use infantry to do the work and my heavy only for the coup de grace. Its more effective that way.

I know this sounds like a weird tactic for a Hellenistic faction but I guarantee with enough practice, this method will work against any enemy (I first developed it fighting a steppe faction. Since they usually do a lot of damage even in defeat, I reformed my army and instead of standard infantry and cavalry, I used faster infantry and only one or two medium cavalry units. Also I find that now I am suffering far less casualties with a more balanced army.

The last time I played multi-player was over a year ago. I used to play with my friend but I have since deleted and reinstalled EB several times. I have forgotten how to set up multiplayer games (my current Eb cant play multiplayer). In those games I played with my friend tho, I lost whenever there was a Rome vs Seleukid clash or a Carthage vs Seleukid clash, although I did manage to best him Anything else vs. Seleukids

[seleucid empire]

Any of the Hellenistic factions (minus Makedonia) can make Thorakitai based armies. Use the Thoraks as your line units and Theurophoroi as medium reserve infantry. The Seleukids can do this best since they can recruit a wide array of light infantry types to complement the heavy spear line but the Epeirotes, Ptolemies and Baktrians can come close to matching them.

thorakitai armies feel really.... unwieldy for some reason. They dont feel like Roman armies either. They feel like late Getai armies for some reason...

[Catmand0]

That is a great thing about the Seleukids, they have the ability to adapt, far more so than any of the other Hellenic factions. In your lighter Selekiud army, what do you use as your line infantry?

[seleucid empire]

oh and @ Catman

im not saying seleucid roster is better than Roman roster, im merely saying that the Roman roster is not strong, rather the units themselves are strong

[seleucid empire]

That is a great thing about the Seleukids, they have the ability to adapt, far more so than any of the other Hellenic factions. In your lighter Selekiud army, what do you use as your line infantry?

I still use phalanghites. By Lighter I mean not as many elite units as every else seems to use. I always hear people saying how strong their roster is because of the TABs, Hetarioi, Silver Shields etc....

My point is that their roster is strong because they are diverse, not cause they have shiny mega elites.

I have 1 general unit (or two if its a dangerous place for generals)
I reduced the number of phalanxes in my armies from 8 to 5
added 2 units of theuropheuro
2 peltasts
2 archers
1 slinger
2 medium infantry mercenary units
2 medium cavs (prodomoi or hellenic heavy cavalry)
2 light horse archer units

[Catmand0]

That is fair. Often in the marian reform era I am wishing for a solid heavy spear unit or a solid cavalry unit beyond the auxilia units. Generally I can supplement what I need with local recruitment classic hoplites and greek medium cavalry, but they certainly dont hold much of a candle to thorakitai or medium hellenic cavalry. In terms of a strong diverse roster the romans don't have that. The romans are strong by having the wide AOR and great heavy sword infantry. While they may not be as deadly as Belga swordsmen or Galatian heavy swordsmen, armies who use those units generally only have two or three, a roman army often has over ten units of Legionary cohorts.

[seleucid empire]

That is fair. Often in the marian reform era I am wishing for a solid heavy spear unit or a solid cavalry unit beyond the auxilia units. Generally I can supplement what I need by classic hoplites and greek medium cavalry, but they certainly dont hold much of a candle to thorakitai or medium hellenic cavalry. In terms of a strong diverse roster the romans don't have that.

poor romans...Greek Medium cavalry makes me vomit sometimes...

[Catmand0]

They are really only for killing light ranged units and chasing routers. It is foolish to expect them to do anything more. One of the main offensive weapons I use to great effect are Kreten Archers, my elite legion has five all with gold chevrons. You dont need heavy cav if you have an unrelenting rain of death.

[seleucid empire]

They are really only for killing light ranged units and chasing routers. It is foolish to expect them to do anything more.

yeh but still....

I am actually constantly surprised to this day with how incompetent they seem to be. I remember this desperate situation I got myself into on another of my campaigns where I had to recruit 3 units of greek mercenary cavalry to supplement my horseless army. I wanted to destabilise his left flank quickly so I send all three units to attack a unit of hellenic heavy cavalry. thats 300 men against 100. Their charge took down very few hellenic heavy cavs and it became a cavalry slogging match. I eventually won but now my units were too depleted to do much damage to the left flank.

The next time I hired illyrian light cavalry mercenaries and they did a much better job depsite being light cavalry and the greeks being "heavy cavalry"

[Catmand0]

I love Illyrian light cavalry, hell, I love all of the Illyrian levy units. I find Illyrian light cavalry are especially useful when fighting hoarse archer heavy steps faction. Greek medium cav is just awful I know, they are just widely recruitable with the local levy buildings.

[seleucid empire]

The romans are strong by having the wide AOR and great heavy sword infantry. While they may not be as deadly as Belga swordsmen or Galatian heavy swordsmen, armies who use those units generally only have two or three, a roman army often has over ten units of Legionary cohorts.

yeh thats the biggest advantage rome has

Roma: 1 unit does many different roles (line troops, flankers, flank guards)
other factions: many different units have many different roles ( cav or swordsmen for flanking, spearmen for line troops)

Basically, you have 10 units that can do anything. If you have 3 units of swordsmen for the purpose of flanking. In a game, if those units get depleted or destroyed you will have nothing to flank them with. Its like losing a bodypart

With Romas however, you can just get another cohort to do the task since all your infantry are the same

[Catmand0]

That is the main reason I love the romans. I will say this though, a well put together Hellenic army is an incredibly formidable thing. If I cant pick the phalanx battle line apart then defeat is certain. Also the defensive capabilities of the phalanx are unparalleled, if I was to face a well led army of levy phalanxes a tenth my armies size on defending a bridge or crossing, I would simply not engage because victory would be impossible.

[DaciaJC]

I would say Getai, but I'm biased and I haven't experienced every faction's military roster. Still, though, the Dacians/Thracians have pretty much everything covered: solid skirmishers (who can double as line infantry), proper line infantry (admittedly not the best, but still adequate), heavy spearmen, great archers, horse archers, slingers, light skirmisher cavalry, medium lance cavalry, and probably the best selection of shock infantry of any faction in the game.

[Catmand0]

The Getai are my favorite barbarian faction for sure.

[seleucid empire]

getai = mini AS

[seleucid empire]

That is the main reason I love the romans. I will say this though, a well put together Hellenic army is an incredibly formidable thing. If I cant pick the phalanx battle line apart then defeat is certain. Also the defensive capabilities of the phalanx are unparalleled, if I was to face a well led army of levy phalanxes a tenth my armies size on defending a bridge or crossing, I would simply not engage because victory would be impossible.

Yes a good hellenic army is quite formidable, although most people have a different idea of what a "good" hellenic army is. For me, the best one is one that combines holding power and flexibility, good defence AND attack. Since Im a campaigner I also take into account AORs. Thus Seleukids are my perfect faction (ALTHOUGH I WISH THEY GAVE THE SELEUKIDS AGRIANIAN ASSAULT INFANTRY!!!!!!!!!!!!!! THE ONE BEAUTIFUL UNIT THAT SHOULD ALSO BE IN THE SELEUKID ROSTER!!!! :(((((((((()

[Frtigern]

Lusotannan's roster is great for the ambush and guerrilla fighters. I find great pleasure in defeating Rome and Carthage with them. They have pretty decent infantry and cavalry. Those that stand out are those that are disciplined and highly trained:
Iberian Medium Spearmen
Lusotannan Medium Spearmen
Massilian Medium Hoplites
Iberian Heavy Cavalry

Those that are disciplined and trained:
Iberian Medium Cavalry
Lusotannan Elite Medium Cavalry/Lusotannan Bodyguard Cavalry
Iberian Heavy Infantry
Iberian Medium Infantry
Lusotannan Elite Shock Infantry

Those that are highly trained:
Celtiberian Heavy Infantry
Mercenary Celto-Hellenic Infantry

Those that are trained:
Iberian Light Infantry
Asturian Axemen
Callaeci Medium Infantry
Ilergetan Soldiers
Iberian Light Spearmen
Lusotannan Light Spearmen
Iberian Light Cavalry
Gallic Mercenary Light Cavalry

The key features of note in this roster is their AP swords, and the one with axes. Also, the AP javelins. Units with both of those are particularly deadly and match the Roman Hastati and Principes. The heavier spearmen can hold the Triarii while I flank them with much more mobile assault infantry and cavalry.

[moriluk]

No love for Hayasdan? They have good infantry and cav that can go toe to toe with the nomads.

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

Hayasdan is good against nomads and terrible against anyone else. Their infantry cuts and runs at most decently put together Western armies.

I'm not sure that anyone can argue with Carthage. Iberian Assault Infantry are really the most OP unit in game (well along with PE but
Rome loses access to them eventually).

[kidpacific]

In my opinion, AS has the best roster; Cathage has the second best roster; Baktria has the third best roster.

[seleucid empire]

In my opinion, AS has the best roster; Cathage has the second best roster; Baktria has the third best roster.

Can I ask why you think Bactra is third?

Just curious cause I would usually put Dacia (mini AS) or Rome there

or epirus, they also have elephants. on top of that they have elite pikemen, agrianian assault infantry, the thracian roster and hellenic heavy skirmisher cavalry