Offspring

[Kadagar_AV]

I posted this article in News Of The Weird...

But it gave food for thought, and I wanted to highlight a part of it.

How important is it for you, that your offspring look somewhat like you?

I was startled a couple of years ago when I was together with an asian girl. A girl asked me; "Do you really want asian looking kids?"

I was absolutely dumbfounded by the question. It hit me hard. When I thought about it, I always envisioned my kids to look somewhat like me. So yeah, I would very much prefer the future mother of my children to at least be of the same vague race.

This is what my gut tells me is right, but I cant defend the position intellectually. In fact I find myself wrestling with it.

Same goes for adoptions. I can not, ever, see myself adopting a kid. It wouldn't be MY kid, so why would I invest all my love and efforts into it? I want me to do it, but I honestly can't say I would.

Lately this view of mine has got me in trouble with my family. My sister got together with a guy who had two kids since before. She now has a kid with him. I see that kid as part of my family, but not the other kids. I have no bloodline with them what so ever.

So I offer to help my sisters kid with his skiing, but I don't extend the favour to the two other kids. This caused an emotional uproar in that family, and I felt like an absolute ****. But hey, at the end of the day, I have to stick to my beliefs.

Yes I do care about my sisters son because it is my sisters son.

No I don't care about these two other kids she has made part of her family, as they are no family of mine.

Don't get me wrong, if I happen to have a day off I would of course help them to ski.

But with HER son I would make sure I had time, and also sort all equipment and everything else around it. IfYouGetIt...

Am I alone feeling this way?

[rvg]

Am I alone feeling this way?

Hardly. Blood matters. Before I became a father it didn't hit me just how much it matters. To put it simply, my daughter is one of the two people on this entire planet for whose sake I would kill and die without hesitation.

[Strike For The South]

If you spent half as much time worrying about the inside of your child as you did the outside, you might make a half decent father.

People who care about "blood" generally grew up in a house with stable "blood"

As an adopted child, I will probably end up adopting children, blood be damned

[Kadagar_AV]

If you spent half as much time worrying about the inside of your child as you did the outside, you might make a half decent father.

People who care about "blood" generally grew up in a house with stable "blood"

As an adopted child, I will probably end up adopting children, blood be damned

I don't know if your theory is correct. I grew up with a half-brother and half-sister on my mothers side, I was my dads only child (possibly...?)

I think that it was my fathers death, more than anything else, that made me more centered about who is family and not. Having to share the grief and his assets with "siblings" who had a whole other view of him and relationship to him than I had, was very painful.

After that, I realized that nothing can make up for the natural bond between parents and their children. SFTS, I hope you dont get offended being an adoptee. I understand that it's sensitive to you, but I have to be honest.

[Strike For The South]

Clearly it something that is highly colored by perception.

But blood is only as special or as important as you make it

[Kadagar_AV]

Clearly it something that is highly colored by perception.

But blood is only as special or as important as you make it

Euhm... Yes and no...

With "blood" I of course talk about DNA, genetics and so on... And there I would have to argue against you. Genetics DOES matter. I for one could never be the best soccer player in the world, ever. My mum and dad just didn't give me that ability.

They gave me kick *** balance though, so skiing is a breeze :)

So again, genetics does matter. The carte blanche doesn't exist, do you really claim otherwise?

[Strike For The South]

Genetics matter.

But not in the way you think they do.

Entire scientific theories based on supposed human lineage have been debunked

[Kadagar_AV]

Genetics matter.

But not in the way you think they do.

Entire scientific theories based on supposed human lineage have been debunked

So explain it then...

Where I come from, genetics are extremely important in deciding a child's future. Sure, environment has a big impact, say.... roughly half or so? But environmental factors is not A-Z in deciding factors here, is it?

[Strike For The South]

So explain it then...

Where I come from, genetics are extremely important in deciding a child's future. Sure, environment has a big impact, say.... roughly half or so? But environmental factors is not A-Z in deciding factors here, is it?

Well where I come from its not.

Plenty of people with supposedly great lineage have fizzled
Plenty of people with supposedly shite lineage have blossomed
What people often ascribe to genetics are really far reaching societal or cultural mores that are so large and intertwined in everyday life people don't notice it

I don't really understand what you're getting at.

[Beskar]

Blood doesn't matter. Afterall, you don't marry Family members since you can only love them, right?

You can and do form bonds with people who do not share the same genetic material. I even have friends who I love more than family members. I even thought my step-fathers family was closer then my fathers side, I loved them as I loved my aunts/uncles, etc. Even called his mother "Nana". It simply depends on the environment the kids are raised.

It was when I ended up hitting around 16-17 is when this changed. It seems it was far easier to be accepted when I was a child, but later on, these arguments came in, I wasn't a "real family member". Then members of my step-fathers family, people who I accepted as if they were 'blood' were distant and cold about it, and that was terribly heartbreaking to simply end up rejected so majorly.

So fostering and adoption.. it really is taking on a child and raising them as your own, it is the joys of having that close relationship with some one and it is perfectly viable and possible. In a way, it is like owning a pet. Pet's become "members of the family" and they are an entirely different species!

So I offer to help my sisters kid with his skiing, but I don't extend the favour to the two other kids. This caused an emotional uproar in that family, and I felt like an absolute ****. But hey, at the end of the day, I have to stick to my beliefs.

I put it this way. Imagine that family together, then you simply take that one kid out of the three and they get to go Skiing, etc. How do you make the other children feel? Jealous? Rejected? They are no longer with their mother and you felt the need to rub it in, because they are not blood. It is perfectly possible for you to be an uncle to them, they might even end up viewing you as their favourite and you having a healthy relationship with them.

Want my honest opinion? Is it just your sisters son with her and her husband, or the three of them? if it is just him, then you can do just him sort of guilt free. If it is the three of them, then you should take all three.

Where I come from, genetics are extremely important in deciding a child's future. Sure, environment has a big impact, say.... roughly half or so? But environmental factors is not A-Z in deciding factors here, is it?

No, 90% of it is environment, 10% is genetics.

[rvg]

Blood doesn't matter. Afterall, you don't marry Family members since you can only love them, right?

There's a difference though. Relationship with a spouse is a two way street. Parents' love for their children is unconditional.

You can and do form bonds with people who do not share the same genetic material. I even have friends who I love more than family members. I even thought my step-fathers family was closer then my fathers side, I loved them as I loved my aunts/uncles, etc. Even called his mother "Nana". It simply depends on the environment the kids are raised.

That might be the case for a small nuclear family. In large close knit extended families blood is paramount.

It was when I ended up hitting around 16-17 is when this changed. It seems it was far easier to be accepted when I was a child, but later on, these arguments came in, I wasn't a "real family member". Then members of my step-fathers family, people who I accepted as if they were 'blood' were distant and cold about it, and that was terribly heartbreaking to simply end up rejected so majorly.

See? Blood matters.

So fostering and adoption.. it really is taking on a child and raising them as your own, it is the joys of having that close relationship with some one and it is perfectly viable and possible. In a way, it is like owning a pet. Pet's become "members of the family" and they are an entirely different species!

Would you die for your pet though?

No, 90% of it is environment, 10% is genetics.

Except that environment favors the genetics. Not being of the same blood as the rest of the clan is hardly an advantage.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I posted this article in News Of The Weird...

But it gave food for thought, and I wanted to highlight a part of it.

How important is it for you, that your offspring look somewhat like you?

I was startled a couple of years ago when I was together with an asian girl. A girl asked me; "Do you really want asian looking kids?"

I was absolutely dumbfounded by the question. It hit me hard. When I thought about it, I always envisioned my kids to look somewhat like me. So yeah, I would very much prefer the future mother of my children to at least be of the same vague race.

This is what my gut tells me is right, but I cant defend the position intellectually. In fact I find myself wrestling with it.

Same goes for adoptions. I can not, ever, see myself adopting a kid. It wouldn't be MY kid, so why would I invest all my love and efforts into it? I want me to do it, but I honestly can't say I would.

Lately this view of mine has got me in trouble with my family. My sister got together with a guy who had two kids since before. She now has a kid with him. I see that kid as part of my family, but not the other kids. I have no bloodline with them what so ever.

So I offer to help my sisters kid with his skiing, but I don't extend the favour to the two other kids. This caused an emotional uproar in that family, and I felt like an absolute ****. But hey, at the end of the day, I have to stick to my beliefs.

Yes I do care about my sisters son because it is my sisters son.

No I don't care about these two other kids she has made part of her family, as they are no family of mine.

Don't get me wrong, if I happen to have a day off I would of course help them to ski.

But with HER son I would make sure I had time, and also sort all equipment and everything else around it. IfYouGetIt...

Am I alone feeling this way?

OK - first off, you are a normal man.

Blood matters, no doubt.

Having said that, it isn't everything. Step-siblings are actually really tricky because they aren't something you or your parent chose, they're part of a package deal when two people with children get together.

Adoption is a lot simpler, really, when you choose to adopt a child you are making a commitment to that child which is of the same value as the one you make to your bloodkin, and your bloodkin had better well fall in line behind that or they aren't worth having.

How I think this relates to your situation and what my advice is - if your sister has adopted these other two children then she has given them equal status to her own child and you should respect that and do the same. If she hasn't then I don't think you have any special obligations. Take the children as you find them, if you like them then extend them whatever support you deem appropriate.

After all, supporting your sister's step children won't harm her son, will it?

As far as the future speculative mother of my children - the last girl I had a thing for (not the one I made a thread about) had roughly the same Anglo-Scandinavian-Welsh background I do. Her eyes have more gold in than mine, her hair is a few shades lighter and her cheeks are rosier, but yeah, we look like we're the same tribe.

[ajaxfetish]

I put it this way. Imagine that family together, then you simply take that one kid out of the three and they get to go Skiing, etc. How do you make the other children feel? Jealous? Rejected? They are no longer with their mother and you felt the need to rub it in, because they are not blood. It is perfectly possible for you to be an uncle to them, they might even end up viewing you as their favourite and you having a healthy relationship with them.

I think this is the key part, Kadagar. However much you feel the blood relationship matters to you, you also need to pay due attention to tact. Based on your own views, your sisters family will be all the harder to forge into a unit, since two of the kids lack a blood bond to one of the parents. If you, the extended family, are excluding them, you're weakening the part of their family bond that needs the most support. That's just rude. Deep down, you don't need to feel the same connection to them that you do to their sibling. But on the surface, you need to treat them like you do.

Ajax

[rvg]

Deep down, you don't need to feel the same connection to them that you do to their sibling. But on the surface, you need to treat them like you do.

Tact is one thing. There's little need to fake a bond that isn't there. Those kids aren't stupid, they can spot insincerity.

[Rhyfelwyr]

I think it is impossible to know if there is a difference unless you have raised both biological and adopted kids. Who knows, there may well be foster parents that love their kids as if they were their own. Although I would think you would have to raise them from pretty young to have a proper parent-child relationship.

And although your feelings are normal Kadagar, you should try to include those kids even if they are not blood, things have probably been hard enough on them already. Even if you don't feel it, you owe it to them to try.

oh and inb4 irony of me giving advice on anything to do with human interaction...

[spankythehippo]

Nature Versus Nurture. Nurture wins.

I grew up in an Asian family. I don't hold the same views, and couldn't care less about the lineage of my offspring (although I highly doubt I will have any). Of course, my parents want me to settle down, and have a family of my own. What they don't say, but imply, is "Spanky, get a Japanese wife".

If I ever get married, which I also highly doubt, the race of my potential significant other is irrelevant. If I like her, then it doesn't matter where she's from.

[rvg]

Something like 90+% of people marry into the same racial, ethnic, religious and social group they were born into.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

The "if I like her" is far more likely if you come from the same ethnic and social group - because you will have more in common.

[spankythehippo]

The "if I like her" is far more likely if you come from the same ethnic and social group - because you will have more in common.

I'm a hairy Japanese guy with long hair and a beard that listens to death metal. How much more un-Asian can you get?

In my case, the same social group is a more viable factor than same ethnic group. I cannot say the same for the majority of other people, though.

[rvg]

I'm a hairy Japanese guy with long hair and a beard that listens to death metal. How much more un-Asian can you get?

In my case, the same social group is a more viable factor than same ethnic group. I cannot say the same for the majority of other people, though.

Just don't bring home a Chinese or a Korean girl...

[Papewaio]

Something like 90+% of people marry into the same racial, ethnic, religious and social group they were born into.

In Australia 80% of Indian women marry an Indian man, whilst only 10% of American women marry another American.

Chinese men are 91% likely to marry a Chinese woman.

Overall it hits around 40% mixed marriages.

[Ironside]

Tact is one thing. There's little need to fake a bond that isn't there. Those kids aren't stupid, they can spot insincerity.

True, but it's not that hard to treat other people's children decently. In this case, it's not to pedistal the favorite.

[Kadagar_AV]

Thanks for the replies :)

SFTS, anecdotal evidence wasn't really what I was after here...

Tiaexz , You talk about how adoptees become part of the family, before going on how the other family members grew cold and distant to you... Wouldn't that strengthen my point?

Also, I don't get what you meant drawing the parallel of getting a pet... Most parents would take a bullet for their kid, how many would take a bullet for their dog, or cat?

PVC, My sister and her guy has been together 3 years, but I have only been around them for 2 years as I used to live in Austria. The two other kids my sisters BF brought from his past relationship are 9 and 13. They live with their mom every other week.

There is just no chance I can see them as my family.

Not only do we not have any genetic scraps in common, they have also been raised by non-family, and continue spending 50% of the time in another family.

So... my half-sister have two "plastic kids" (Swedish term, what is the correct english one?) every other week... I do feel it hard to see much (or any) of my familys nature OR nurture in them.

The fact that the boy is a whiny girlieboy of course doesn't help, I feel like bonking him on the head when I see him.

My sister has not adopted these kids, but in Sweden it's culturally accepted that their arrangement gives her equal status in society's eyes (Sweden, remember? Basically imagine famlily views drafted HoreTore).

Ajaxfetish, as someone mentioned, I think the kids can read insincerity. Also, when I take on a child and make it my family, it means I would do ANYTHING for this kid. I just... do... not... feel.... like doing that with these 2 others.

I'm not rude to the two other or anything, I help them and behave around them like I would with, say, the kids of a work mate that you like. I take interest in them, I can toss them a favour.... But I would not let their well being and education interfere too much with my life.

Rhyf, It's not like I exclude them. If I am at their place I treat them like I do any kids (generally go down on their mental level and have fun). I'm talking about the bigger things, like, taking my youngest kid skiing for a weekend and such. I don't mind having one kid along, 3 is a whole other deal... And if two of them are ill raised "strangers"... Then...

[rory_20_uk]

I want my own children.

My son's mother is not the same race as me. He is clearly my son. He is not the same colour but that is only one facet.

[Sigurd]

Right... so you take a 2 year old skiing? A bit on the early side...

[Kadagar_AV]

Right... so you take a 2 year old skiing? A bit on the early side...

He'll be 2,5 this winter... It's not too early, starting that young is in fact great, as the kids don't have any fears yet. So you can just hook them up to a line, lock the tips of their skis together so they cant do anything stupid, and then you can take them on any run (You just have to make short turns behind them to control their speed as you hold a line attached to their harness).

I can honestly say that I am a very very good ski instructor. I take pride in few things, but that is most def one.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I'm a hairy Japanese guy with long hair and a beard that listens to death metal. How much more un-Asian can you get?

In my case, the same social group is a more viable factor than same ethnic group. I cannot say the same for the majority of other people, though.

Find a Japanese metal fan, guarantee you'll have a broader gambit of stuff in common with her than a white metal fan.

In Australia 80% of Indian women marry an Indian man, whilst only 10% of American women marry another American.

Chinese men are 91% likely to marry a Chinese woman.

Overall it hits around 40% mixed marriages.

10% of American women in Australia?

PVC, My sister and her guy has been together 3 years, but I have only been around them for 2 years as I used to live in Austria. The two other kids my sisters BF brought from his past relationship are 9 and 13. They live with their mom every other week.

There is just no chance I can see them as my family.

Not only do we not have any genetic scraps in common, they have also been raised by non-family, and continue spending 50% of the time in another family.

So... my half-sister have two "plastic kids" (Swedish term, what is the correct english one?) every other week... I do feel it hard to see much (or any) of my familys nature OR nurture in them.

The fact that the boy is a whiny girlieboy of course doesn't help, I feel like bonking him on the head when I see him.

My sister has not adopted these kids, but in Sweden it's culturally accepted that their arrangement gives her equal status in society's eyes (Sweden, remember? Basically imagine famlily views drafted HoreTore).

Ah - I get it. The boy's a whiny little bitch and you want to slap him into being a man, but you can't.

But also - she didn't marry this guy when she took on his kids? Did he marry the other woman?

Sounds dodgy to me.

[Kadagar_AV]

Find a Japanese metal fan, guarantee you'll have a broader gambit of stuff in common with her than a white metal fan.



10% of American women in Australia?



Ah - I get it. The boy's a whiny little bitch and you want to slap him into being a man, but you can't.

But also - she didn't marry this guy when she took on his kids? Did he marry the other woman?

Sounds dodgy to me.

Oh... He was VD of a large company, my sister was working for him... He was married and had two kids, but are now together with my sister and they have a child together. I don't respect him OR my sister for that, it very much goes against my moral principles.

But I am sidetracking the issue (maybe?).


I am proud of my family name. I have a proud family history, so of course I see it as a mission to make all parts of the family a proper [insert surname here]. But how am I supposed to do that with two kids who are NOT [insert surname here]?

[Montmorency]

Not only do we not have any genetic scraps in common,

99.999% is not enough for you?

[Sigurd]

He'll be 2,5 this winter... It's not too early, starting that young is in fact great, as the kids don't have any fears yet. So you can just hook them up to a line, lock the tips of their skis together so they cant do anything stupid, and then you can take them on any run (You just have to make short turns behind them to control their speed as you hold a line attached to their harness).

I can honestly say that I am a very very good ski instructor. I take pride in few things, but that is most def one.

You are the instructor and I can't say what is norm. But I didn't start my career until I had finished devloping my motory skills and was able to ski on my own. That was the philosophy of the generation of my parents and produced great skiiers like Lasse Kjus and Kjetil Andre Åmot. Then it was all about letting the child keep balance on their own and use no aids.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I went up against Lasse when young. We were about the same height, weight and age.
Since I am from the west, we tend to be more focused on freestyle, and I did train with the national freestyle team when in highschool, but I was a bit heavier than the average freestyler and preffered downhill. No one dared to take me on amongst the people I socialized with then. The Navy took me out of active training and I am kinda inactive these days, being a casual skiier... taking a few breaking turns when the ski partol is around