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Thread: Is Islam true?.
Originally Posted by total relism:
That is terrible logic, all contradictory "religions" are true. or they are all false. They can neither be all true or all false, as they contradict. Well they could all be false.
All pizza has ham as a toping
either all pizzas have ham as a topping or none do
so all have ham.
Some do some dont.
Analogy fail. Really all three are different slices of the same pizza. That is all three religions worship the same god. So the followers of one prophet or the other of the same god can't be wrong.That is terrible logic, all contradictory "religions" are true. or they are all false. They can neither be all true or all false, as they contradict. Well they could all be false.
All pizza has ham as a toping
either all pizzas have ham as a topping or none do
so all have ham.
Some do some dont.
But I was really saying that if Yaweh/Jehova is real, then Odin, Zeus, Brahmin, Raiden, the Jade Emperor, etc are all real too. Or (and this is the most likely) none of them are real.
Originally Posted by total relism:
That is terrible logic, all contradictory "religions" are true. or they are all false. They can neither be all true or all false, as they contradict. Well they could all be false.
All pizza has ham as a toping
either all pizzas have ham as a topping or none do
so all have ham.
Some do some dont.
Do you even eat pizza?That is terrible logic, all contradictory "religions" are true. or they are all false. They can neither be all true or all false, as they contradict. Well they could all be false.
All pizza has ham as a toping
either all pizzas have ham as a topping or none do
so all have ham.
Some do some dont.
EDIT: Just to clarify, this is the new topic for this thread. Whether or not TR eats pizza and what possible foods he puts on his pizza.
Originally Posted by total relism:
Modern morality
I agree the bible disagrees with much of modern morality,if it feels good do it, no marriage, sex with any partner and multiple partners , kill millions of innocent babies through abortion, homosexuality,slap on wrist for criminals,guilty run free, harder on Innocent, racism etc. But I have to ask, what makes you moral? is not the modern thought you refer to atheism? there can be no morals in a atheistic society.
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=531553
Perhpas this is off topic but I can't let this slide! How dare you?! This is such utter, utter, utter, utter, ..., bollocks that I don't even know how to start responding to such nonesense!Modern morality
I agree the bible disagrees with much of modern morality,if it feels good do it, no marriage, sex with any partner and multiple partners , kill millions of innocent babies through abortion, homosexuality,slap on wrist for criminals,guilty run free, harder on Innocent, racism etc. But I have to ask, what makes you moral? is not the modern thought you refer to atheism? there can be no morals in a atheistic society.
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=531553
Quiddy
*Reads Quiddy's post*
*Reads Quiddy's first signature line*
*Runs off to make Total realism's funeral arrangements*
*Reads Quiddy's first signature line*
*Runs off to make Total realism's funeral arrangements*
Originally Posted by Greyblades:
*Reads Quiddy's post*
*Reads Quiddy's first signature line*
*Runs off to make Total realism's funeral arrangements*
This seems to be getting a little out of hand...*Reads Quiddy's post*
*Reads Quiddy's first signature line*
*Runs off to make Total realism's funeral arrangements*
Originally Posted by HoreTore:
This seems to be getting a little out of hand...
Note to self; must include some sort of joke tag for the humorously disabled.This seems to be getting a little out of hand...
Originally Posted by Greyblades:
Note to self; must include some sort of joke tag for the humorously disabled.
Oh I know it was a joke, don't worry about that Note to self; must include some sort of joke tag for the humorously disabled.
It wasn't the content of the joke itself that prompted my comment, but rather that the joke appeared
Make them quickly. I'm itching.
On second thought, it's just not worth it. Statements like the one highlighted in my previous post are so far off the proverbial line drawn in the sand that you would end up in the bloody rain forest contending it.
Quid
On second thought, it's just not worth it. Statements like the one highlighted in my previous post are so far off the proverbial line drawn in the sand that you would end up in the bloody rain forest contending it.
Quid
Originally Posted by lars573:
Analogy fail. Really all three are different slices of the same pizza. That is all three religions worship the same god. So the followers of one prophet or the other of the same god can't be wrong.
But I was really saying that if Yaweh/Jehova is real, then Odin, Zeus, Brahmin, Raiden, the Jade Emperor, etc are all real too. Or (and this is the most likely) none of them are real.
So ... you do subscribe to an "original religion" theory. Analogy fail. Really all three are different slices of the same pizza. That is all three religions worship the same god. So the followers of one prophet or the other of the same god can't be wrong.
But I was really saying that if Yaweh/Jehova is real, then Odin, Zeus, Brahmin, Raiden, the Jade Emperor, etc are all real too. Or (and this is the most likely) none of them are real.
The original pizza if we use TR's analogy.
Some people picks off the capsicum or the pepperoni, because they don't like those. Others do... but doze it with a layer of chilli "to spice things up".
Some think pizza need only cheese and tomato sauce and strip away all the extras.
Some eat the whole pizza, because that will get you the approval of the pizza baker.
Others just nibbles and give the rest to the dog, expecting the approval of the pizza baker.
Some just look at the pizza with disgust and will NEVER partake.
Now I got cravings for pizza...
I guess you never know what to expect when you read these boards... *off to the pizza restaurant it is!*
I guess you never know what to expect when you read these boards... *off to the pizza restaurant it is!*
Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV:
Now I got cravings for pizza...
I guess you never know what to expect when you read these boards... *off to the pizza restaurant it is!*
It's Champions League night, manly food like kebabpizza is mandatory anyway...Now I got cravings for pizza...
I guess you never know what to expect when you read these boards... *off to the pizza restaurant it is!*
Originally Posted by Quid:
Perhpas this is off topic but I can't let this slide! How dare you?! This is such utter, utter, utter, utter, ..., bollocks that I don't even know how to start responding to such nonesense!
Quiddy
He just worded it wrong. Of course the atheistic society use morals. What he should have written was: The atheistic world view can't account for what they are doing. Perhpas this is off topic but I can't let this slide! How dare you?! This is such utter, utter, utter, utter, ..., bollocks that I don't even know how to start responding to such nonesense!
Quiddy
So would this quote from Under the Banner of Heaven apply to the OP, his subject, or both?
For some, the province of the extreme holds an allure that's irresistible. And a certain percentage of such fanatics will inevitably fixate on matters of the spirit. The zealot may be outwardly motivated by the anticipation of a great reward at the other end—wealth, fame, eternal salvation—but the real recompense is probably the obsession itself. This is no less true for the religious fanatic than for the fanatical pianist or fanatical mountain climber. As a result of his (or her) infatuation, existence overflows with purpose. Ambiguity vanishes from the fanatic's worldview; a narcissistic sense of self-assurance displaces all doubt. A delicious rage quickens his pulse, fueled by the sins and shortcomings of lesser mortals, who are soiling the world wherever he looks. His perspective narrows until the last remnants of proportion are shed from his life. Through immoderation, he experiences something akin to rapture.
Or this quote, from Sully:Fundamentalism is not about belief; it's about the rigidity required because of faltering belief. It's not faith; it's neurosis. [...] [T]hey cannot look at things empirically, refuse to acknowledge nuance, and cannot trust anyone who might be in touch with the reality fundamentalists secretly fear may be true.
Originally Posted by Sigurd:
He just worded it wrong. Of course the atheistic society use morals. What he should have written was: The atheistic world view can't account for what they are doing.
I am not sure what you mean by that. Are you implying that I am not accountable for my actions? Or are you saying that I can't name a specific source for my morals?He just worded it wrong. Of course the atheistic society use morals. What he should have written was: The atheistic world view can't account for what they are doing.
Quid
Originally Posted by Sir Moody:
the core beliefs are the same (follow Gods code and lead a good life and be rewarded in the afterlife, deviate and you will be punished for all eternity) - this is what is refereed to as a "Death cult"
to use your Pizza analogy - all 3 Pizza's have ham, you are just arguing over how much ham is right...
core beliefs in one god, but you just described every religion in the world but christianity. Witch says, god want all in haven no matter what you have done, good,bad etc. But cant allow you in with sin. Here is a free sacrifice and forgiveness because i love you. Please accept and go live life they way I you should.the core beliefs are the same (follow Gods code and lead a good life and be rewarded in the afterlife, deviate and you will be punished for all eternity) - this is what is refereed to as a "Death cult"
to use your Pizza analogy - all 3 Pizza's have ham, you are just arguing over how much ham is right...
Originally Posted by lars573:
Analogy fail. Really all three are different slices of the same pizza. That is all three religions worship the same god. So the followers of one prophet or the other of the same god can't be wrong.
But I was really saying that if Yaweh/Jehova is real, then Odin, Zeus, Brahmin, Raiden, the Jade Emperor, etc are all real too. Or (and this is the most likely) none of them are real.
They do not follow the same god, I do recommend you try reading the bible and koran, that come back and honestly claim this. Analogy fail. Really all three are different slices of the same pizza. That is all three religions worship the same god. So the followers of one prophet or the other of the same god can't be wrong.
But I was really saying that if Yaweh/Jehova is real, then Odin, Zeus, Brahmin, Raiden, the Jade Emperor, etc are all real too. Or (and this is the most likely) none of them are real.
I understood what your saying, but again that is impossible, have you not herd of the law of contradiction? Something that claims to be blue [bible] cant also be black [islam]. That should be simple enough to get.
To try and get off pizza, maybe even back on topic?
Allah is not all loving, he does not love all,he loves those who do good works, he does not love those that do bad works, god is the enemy of unbelievers 2.97-100 god does not love the unbelievers 3.30-35 god does not love the evil doers 3.56-57 god bears no love for the sinful 2.275-277 god does not love wrongdoers 42.38-44 god does not love the proud 16.22-26 allah does not love the unbelievers 30.44-46 god does not love transgressors 7.54-57 so his love is conditional based on the works of a individual.
Qur’an 3:31-32—Say [O Muhammad]: If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. Say: Obey Allah and the Apostle; but if they turn back, then surely#Allah does not love the unbelievers.#
Qur’an 30:43-45—Then turn thy face straight to the right religion before there come from Allah the day which cannot be averted; on that day they shall become separated. Whoever disbelieves, he shall be responsible for his disbelief, and whoever does good, they prepare (good) for their own souls, that He may reward those who believe and do good out of His grace; surely#He does not love the unbelievers.
Notice that 3:31-32 makes Allah’s love contingent on whether a person believes in#Muhammad. This is similar to what we find in#19:46, which declares: “Lo! those who believe and do good works, the Beneficent will appoint for them love.”#
Hence, although Allah is called “the Loving,” the Qur’an only means by this that Allah will love people once they believe in him and obey his prophet. The god of Islam has no love for sinners and unbelievers.#
the god of the bible loves all and loves unconditional, but god demonstrated his love for us that while we were sinners Christ died for us Romans 5.8
allah said god will love you, if you love him first 3.30-35 and believers need to help god for him to help them 47.5-11
Jesus said of those who love only those who love them -if you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? Matt 5.46 also when being nailed to the cross after being beaten, scourged, spat at etc he said of those persecuting him he prayed to god "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do". Luke 23.34
allah does not will all to be saved 32.12-32 god wishes to scourge unbelievers for his sins 5.48-50 god could have led all man to him, but he leads them astray because of there bad deeds 13.31 allah punishes unbelievers,so there souls shall depart in unbelief 9.55 … Allah misleads whom He wills and guides whom He wills ... (Q.14:4; 16:93). god wishes to scourge sinners 5.49
Allah does not care if people go to haven or hell “these to eternal fire, and I care not”and these to paradise I care not”kisasul-anbiya 21.9150 abu-dawood 2203 al timidhi 38 mishkat al misablih 3.112-13
one of my fav
unbelievers are allowed to live longer only so they sin more, and receive a greater punishment 3.178
Allah is not all loving, he does not love all,he loves those who do good works, he does not love those that do bad works, god is the enemy of unbelievers 2.97-100 god does not love the unbelievers 3.30-35 god does not love the evil doers 3.56-57 god bears no love for the sinful 2.275-277 god does not love wrongdoers 42.38-44 god does not love the proud 16.22-26 allah does not love the unbelievers 30.44-46 god does not love transgressors 7.54-57 so his love is conditional based on the works of a individual.
Qur’an 3:31-32—Say [O Muhammad]: If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. Say: Obey Allah and the Apostle; but if they turn back, then surely#Allah does not love the unbelievers.#
Qur’an 30:43-45—Then turn thy face straight to the right religion before there come from Allah the day which cannot be averted; on that day they shall become separated. Whoever disbelieves, he shall be responsible for his disbelief, and whoever does good, they prepare (good) for their own souls, that He may reward those who believe and do good out of His grace; surely#He does not love the unbelievers.
Notice that 3:31-32 makes Allah’s love contingent on whether a person believes in#Muhammad. This is similar to what we find in#19:46, which declares: “Lo! those who believe and do good works, the Beneficent will appoint for them love.”#
Hence, although Allah is called “the Loving,” the Qur’an only means by this that Allah will love people once they believe in him and obey his prophet. The god of Islam has no love for sinners and unbelievers.#
the god of the bible loves all and loves unconditional, but god demonstrated his love for us that while we were sinners Christ died for us Romans 5.8
allah said god will love you, if you love him first 3.30-35 and believers need to help god for him to help them 47.5-11
Jesus said of those who love only those who love them -if you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? Matt 5.46 also when being nailed to the cross after being beaten, scourged, spat at etc he said of those persecuting him he prayed to god "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do". Luke 23.34
allah does not will all to be saved 32.12-32 god wishes to scourge unbelievers for his sins 5.48-50 god could have led all man to him, but he leads them astray because of there bad deeds 13.31 allah punishes unbelievers,so there souls shall depart in unbelief 9.55 … Allah misleads whom He wills and guides whom He wills ... (Q.14:4; 16:93). god wishes to scourge sinners 5.49
Allah does not care if people go to haven or hell “these to eternal fire, and I care not”and these to paradise I care not”kisasul-anbiya 21.9150 abu-dawood 2203 al timidhi 38 mishkat al misablih 3.112-13
one of my fav
unbelievers are allowed to live longer only so they sin more, and receive a greater punishment 3.178
what haven will be like for the Muslims
alot of relaxing i guess
believers will mock unbelievers in hell, as they recline apone there couches 83.35
high bosomed maidens for companions in haven 78 31-33 young boy servers who will seem like sprinkled pears 76 15-17 young boys will be there as waiters as fine as virgin pearls 52 22-31 bashful virgins in the garden of eden [heaven] 38.47-52 virgins and dark eyed virgins in heaven 55 53-67 53 -78 dark eyed virgins and flesh of fowls in heaven 56 17-33 recline in couches and wed black eyed houries 52 15-22 37.37-50 36.55-60 reclining couches in haven 76 55.13 18.30-18.34 jeweled couches in heaven 56.16 eat meat, in hadiths Muhammad taught if a person died in jihad they would get 70 virgins with 70 palaces
alot of relaxing i guess
believers will mock unbelievers in hell, as they recline apone there couches 83.35
high bosomed maidens for companions in haven 78 31-33 young boy servers who will seem like sprinkled pears 76 15-17 young boys will be there as waiters as fine as virgin pearls 52 22-31 bashful virgins in the garden of eden [heaven] 38.47-52 virgins and dark eyed virgins in heaven 55 53-67 53 -78 dark eyed virgins and flesh of fowls in heaven 56 17-33 recline in couches and wed black eyed houries 52 15-22 37.37-50 36.55-60 reclining couches in haven 76 55.13 18.30-18.34 jeweled couches in heaven 56.16 eat meat, in hadiths Muhammad taught if a person died in jihad they would get 70 virgins with 70 palaces
You didn't answer the question about whether you eat pizza.
Yeah, could you please get back on topic, tr?
Originally Posted by total relism:
They do not follow the same god, I do recommend you try reading the bible and koran, that come back and honestly claim this.
OK, I'll bite on this one. If they don't follow the same god, why is Jesus considered a prophet in Islam?They do not follow the same god, I do recommend you try reading the bible and koran, that come back and honestly claim this.
Originally Posted by drone:
OK, I'll bite on this one. If they don't follow the same god, why is Jesus considered a prophet in Islam?
OK, I'll bite on this one. If they don't follow the same god, why is Jesus considered a prophet in Islam?
Yes jesus is, but a very different jesus than the jesus of bible. Watch debates on Op Muhammad got info from local jews/christians, but only by word. That is why he also contains material from books like the infancy gospel of thomas in the koran.Bible says jesus first miracle was water into wine, koran says from childhood, many other exsaplmes but that is just one. T
forgery in koran
Jesus made a bird from clay and preached from the cradle 5 109-111
Jesus preaching from cradle 3.46
Jesus speaking as baby 19.30-37 clay bird to life by Jesus 3.49-52
These come from the infancy gospel of Thomas, that noone non-muslim sees as authoritative, but a forgery written in local Arabia hundered of years after jesus and thomas died. ps jesus still living.
the satanic verses
pretty funny.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v20VvP19kCI
here is debate on it
Adnan Rashid vs. David Wood: "The Satanic Verses: Fabricated or Authentic?"
http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2008...d-satanic.html
And the 4 gospels, written many lifetimes after the death of Jesus, handpicked by the church leaders into the canon, and translated, are 100% historically accurate? 
My question was not how Muslims and Christians perceive and portray Jesus. They both accept that he existed, but Muslims do not believe him to be a son of god, merely a prophet so of course there will be differences. However, the fact that they consider him a prophet and not some random heretic point to the Christian god and Muslim God being one and the same. We can get into the angels if you want.
My question was not how Muslims and Christians perceive and portray Jesus. They both accept that he existed, but Muslims do not believe him to be a son of god, merely a prophet so of course there will be differences. However, the fact that they consider him a prophet and not some random heretic point to the Christian god and Muslim God being one and the same. We can get into the angels if you want.
It's kind of endearing how he goes on nilly willy... By now he even gave up arguing against someone, he goes straight to sprouting propaganda.
I am curious how he plans on explaining Abraham. 
Originally Posted by drone:
And the 4 gospels, written many lifetimes after the death of Jesus, handpicked by the church leaders into the canon, and translated, are 100% historically accurate?
My question was not how Muslims and Christians perceive and portray Jesus. They both accept that he existed, but Muslims do not believe him to be a son of god, merely a prophet so of course there will be differences. However, the fact that they consider him a prophet and not some random heretic point to the Christian god and Muslim God being one and the same. We can get into the angels if you want.
And the 4 gospels, written many lifetimes after the death of Jesus, handpicked by the church leaders into the canon, and translated, are 100% historically accurate?
My question was not how Muslims and Christians perceive and portray Jesus. They both accept that he existed, but Muslims do not believe him to be a son of god, merely a prophet so of course there will be differences. However, the fact that they consider him a prophet and not some random heretic point to the Christian god and Muslim God being one and the same. We can get into the angels if you want.
evidence to the contrary? have you ever seen any debates on translation of bible? my guess not so much, nt was written last book by 95 ad latest by apostle john before his death. Church choosing cannon? not so much either, accurate yes over 99% only 1,000 words in question, none effect doctrine. Please watch here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LuiayuxWwuI
As you are clearly Muslim [its about time you guys started to show up, atheist get predictable] How do you reconcile differences,contradictions in koran.bible when Muhammad said bible is 100% accurate in 600 AD. We have complete bibles from 400 ad on.
The koran itself says man cannot change the words of allah, the koran says the torah and gospel cannot be corrupted by man, yet you claim the gospel has been corrupted you contradict your own koran by claiming the bible is corrupted, read your own koran 6.115 and 18.27.
allah promised jesus his followers will have power over those that try to corrupt his words. 40 70-72
61.14 says O you who have believed, be supporters of Allah , as when Jesus, the son of Mary, said to the disciples, "Who are my supporters for Allah ?" The disciples said, "We are supporters of Allah ." And a faction of the Children of Israel believed and a faction disbelieved. So We supported those who believed against their enemy, and they became dominant.
you cannot believe in some parts of scripture but not others 2.84-85 173-175 or you will go to hell
believers are to believe in all scripture 42.15
have faith in previous scripture formerly reveled 4.135-137
10.94 koran says to ask people who have read scripture before you
jews at the time of Muhammad are said to have gods own word in the torah 5 42-44
jews Christians were reading true scripture at time of Muhammad 2.113-114
allah and those who have been given the book, have one and the same god ,Muslims believe in what was reveled to jews and Christians before Muhammad 29.46-49
Muslims must be inconsistent believing gospels are not accurate and same times accepting information from gospel of Thomas and others written far later.
many more passages could be sited, but if you claim the bible has been corrupted, than you go against Allahs eternal word and Prophet Muhammad.
bud-ism or Hindu say jesus was prophet as well,does that mean they are the same? what about Mormon/Jehovah witness,they do as well. We all worship the same god, he is just very diffident in every other way lol.
TR stay on the original topic.
Do you eat pizza?
Do you eat pizza?
Originally Posted by total relism:
As you are clearly Muslim [its about time you guys started to show up, atheist get predictable] How do you reconcile differences,contradictions in koran.bible when Muhammad said bible is 100% accurate in 600 AD. We have complete bibles from 400 ad on.
Well, that's the first time I've been "accused" of being a Muslim. As you are clearly Muslim [its about time you guys started to show up, atheist get predictable] How do you reconcile differences,contradictions in koran.bible when Muhammad said bible is 100% accurate in 600 AD. We have complete bibles from 400 ad on.
Before this goes any farther, I'll ask you this question: Do you believe the Christian god is the same as the Hebrew god?
OK - well I almost feel like I should jump in and bale TR out - but I've been over this so many time now.
The argument you are having is one of definitions. The lot of you are going round in circles for lack of a common definition of "moral".
Traditionally, in religious and pre-Socratic thought "morals" were arbitrarily determined by a God of Justice or Law - after the coming of the Sophists moral philosophy developed a potentially utilitarian dimension - the essence of which is the Protagorean statement that "whatever morals best serve a society are the right ones."
As far as Lars thoughts of religion go - they're hogwash.
A single God has a single will, it does not matter how many times his followers splinter and argue, some will always be closer to Him than others. Personally, I think Islam is not credible primarily because it reads like a tinfoil hat conspiracy of a religion - the Jews were lied to, the Christians were lied to, but now Islam is here and it's the truth.
Yeah...
At least Christianity's relationship to Judaism makes something approaching sense - Christians being Jewish heretics.
The argument you are having is one of definitions. The lot of you are going round in circles for lack of a common definition of "moral".
Traditionally, in religious and pre-Socratic thought "morals" were arbitrarily determined by a God of Justice or Law - after the coming of the Sophists moral philosophy developed a potentially utilitarian dimension - the essence of which is the Protagorean statement that "whatever morals best serve a society are the right ones."
As far as Lars thoughts of religion go - they're hogwash.
A single God has a single will, it does not matter how many times his followers splinter and argue, some will always be closer to Him than others. Personally, I think Islam is not credible primarily because it reads like a tinfoil hat conspiracy of a religion - the Jews were lied to, the Christians were lied to, but now Islam is here and it's the truth.
Yeah...
At least Christianity's relationship to Judaism makes something approaching sense - Christians being Jewish heretics.
Having read the Quran I can say I was unimpressed by the plagiaristic dictation of a mediocre and illiterate business man and member of a semi-powerful Arabic clan. Wilfully taking and rewording the Torah and New Testaments after allegedly meeting with god 20 times and satan 4 times into a "new" book with which to leverage his own earthly aims is not something to follow or be impressed by. Like any fiction, it should be taken as the metaphor of the times it was constructed in. And certainly not followed as true, "holy" or any other such way.
But, no doubt the availability cascade of your society and your support mechanisms will ensure whatever discourse against your chosen believe will suffer from the backfire effect.
But, no doubt the availability cascade of your society and your support mechanisms will ensure whatever discourse against your chosen believe will suffer from the backfire effect.
Originally Posted by Sigurd:
He just worded it wrong. Of course the atheistic society use morals. What he should have written was: The atheistic world view can't account for what they are doing.
Accounting well how about economics and a Nobel prize no less. Game Theory is just one of the many bits of the puzzle that mathematically account for the emergent system of morality. He just worded it wrong. Of course the atheistic society use morals. What he should have written was: The atheistic world view can't account for what they are doing.
=][=
As for the three Abrahamic religions only one of these who share the same creator could have the Hawaiian.
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