Was Hitler a christian? and atheist morallity

[a completely inoffensive name]

Smug?

I'm bitter and angry.

Yes, smug in how bitter and angry you are.

[Montmorency]

A lot of people call themselves christian while they don't believe (often don't know) its basic tenets. Besides, there isn't even consensus on what those basic tenets are.

Yes!

Or if you renounce to be a Christian. And if the case of Hitler, there is no evidence he did.

Now it's a bit more expansive - otherwise, none could technically move from Christianity to atheism without producing a contradiction. But it denies that there can be an implicit rejection of Christianity's tenets, whatever they may be. I notice you don't ascribe any tenets, by the way. It's a very broad - still - definition that does what it can to prevent deconstruction. Any believer in any higher power is necessarily a Christian if raised in a Catholic household. Isn't it possible for an individual to be deeply spiritual without being Christian? Without believing in a Christian doctrine set by any existing sect?

...because Christians set standards they think they can live up to?

No.

Try learning about my religion - even HoreTore and Kadagar know I don't live up to my own ideals.

You're holding me to a claim I'd just disavowed and clarified!

[Brenus]

“Isn't it possible for an individual to be deeply spiritual without being Christian? Without believing in a Christian doctrine set by any existing sect?”: I am probably not the best to answer this question. In theory, I would say yes. An individual can decide the follow Christ outside the official Churches. It was done before, so a person decide he is a Christian. The problem is the ones who tried were declared Heresies. But, today, we have different sects in Christianity, disagreeing on the Mary Virginity, Holiness of Icons, and marriage of Priest, women, and have different liturgies. All of them describe themselves as Christian. So, an individual can decide he is a Christian for his own reason. And others religions have as well deeply spiritual individuals so, yes, it is possible...
This basically what I said.

“Brenus and The Stranger need to read the dictionary”: Why? What is the definition I am missing?

[The Stranger]

ITT: Everyone should read a book before talking apparently.

Monty needs to read the bible.
PVC needs to read a book about not being smug.
Brenus and The Stranger need to read the dictionary.
T.R. needs to read some Dr. Seuss books so he can finish 1st grade english class.

cant remember im posting in this thread XD

[Montmorency]

follow Christ outside the official Churches.

Aha - but did Hitler follow Christ? I'd say that he didn't. Hitler didn't even believe himself to be following Christ, certainly not the Biblical Christ. So let's say we take this label "Christian" and apply it to him - an individual who does not "follow Christ", nor any existing Christian doctrine - indeed reviling organized Christianity - but applies his own special brand of spirituality. This is a Christian? Anyone with spiritual belief can be described as a Christian, having had a Christian upbringing? You don't see anything off about this?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Aha - but did Hitler follow Christ? I'd say that he didn't. Hitler didn't even believe himself to be following Christ, certainly not the Biblical Christ. So let's say we take this label "Christian" and apply it to him - an individual who does not "follow Christ", nor any existing Christian doctrine - indeed reviling organized Christianity - but applies his own special brand of spirituality. This is a Christian? Anyone with spiritual belief can be described as a Christian, having had a Christian upbringing? You don't see anything off about this?

"Christian" is short for the Latin Christianus FideliS, literally "faithful of (to) Christ" but more idiosyncratically a disciple of Christ.

So Hitler doesn't qualify.

[Beskar]

I think technically Hitler was a Mysticist with self-styled screwing up and influence from Christianity. So Hilter cannot condemn Christianity for being what he is. The only way you can truly judge is to look towards Christian institutions during that time, such as the Catholic and Protestant church and their various circles of influence. If they were condemning the actions of Hitler, then it is not fair to paint tar upon them, however, if they were awfully silence or promoting Hitler's agenda, then you can pour the tar on, cover in feathers and set them mess alight.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I think technically Hitler was a Mysticist with self-styled screwing up and influence from Christianity. So Hilter cannot condemn Christianity for being what he is. The only way you can truly judge is to look towards Christian institutions during that time, such as the Catholic and Protestant church and their various circles of influence. If they were condemning the actions of Hitler, then it is not fair to paint tar upon them, however, if they were awfully silence or promoting Hitler's agenda, then you can pour the tar on, cover in feathers and set them mess alight.

According to Einstein and voting patterns the Roman Catholic Church opposed Hitler for as song as it was feasible i.e until opposition got you shot.

[a completely inoffensive name]

“Brenus and The Stranger need to read the dictionary”: Why? What is the definition I am missing?

cant remember im posting in this thread XD

Oohhhhhh ****, I conflated this thread with the other total relism thread.

Either way, you both should still read the dictionary because it helps your vocabulary and thus raises your SAT scores on the dumb written portion.

[a completely inoffensive name]

“Brenus and The Stranger need to read the dictionary”: Why? What is the definition I am missing?

cant remember im posting in this thread XD

Oohhhhhh ****, I conflated this thread with the other total relism thread.

Either way, you both should still read the dictionary because it helps your vocabulary and thus raises your SAT scores on the dumb written portion.

[The Stranger]

Oohhhhhh ****, I conflated this thread with the other total relism thread.

Either way, you both should still read the dictionary because it helps your vocabulary and thus raises your SAT scores on the dumb written portion.

im not a native english speaker so its hard to translate certain technical terms to another language. you could be helpful and point out where you think im using a wrong definition.

[a completely inoffensive name]

im not a native english speaker so its hard to translate certain technical terms to another language. you could be helpful and point out where you think im using a wrong definition.

Don't worry about it, it was a dumb joke by me. I saw in the other thread you and Brenus talking about semantics and definitions about atheism and belief. So obviously, the joke is that we should just open a dictionary and see what "the answer" is.

My last statement was just silliness from American high school. In order to do well on the SAT (a main test for getting into uni), people tell you all sorts of things in order to prepare for it, including reading the dictionary so you can look super smart in your 20 min essay portion.

[The Stranger]

haha i understood that your first post was a joke, but i thought maybe it had a core of truth.

[Slyspy]

According to Einstein and voting patterns the Roman Catholic Church opposed Hitler for as song as it was feasible i.e until opposition got you shot.

What, you mean right up to the point where their opposition would mean a damn?

[Brenus]

“Anyone with spiritual belief can be described as a Christian, having had a Christian upbringing?” Apparently yes, as France is still describe as a Christian Country even if less than 10% of the population go to churches.

“You don't see anything off about this” I do, but in the case of Adolf Hitler, he claimed in public to be a Christian. Now, what give you the right to deny him the right to be? Perhaps, in secret, he was not. But this is a perhaps. The only thing we know for sure is what he said in public meetings.

“but did Hitler follow Christ?” He never said he didn’t. In speeches in public, he told the crowd he was a Christian, and he followed the Christian Doctrine in blaming the Jews for the death of Jesus… So yes, he did follow a part of the Christian Tradition.

“So Hitler doesn't qualify.” So nobody qualifies.

“According to Einstein and voting patterns the Roman Catholic Church opposed Hitler for as song as it was feasible i.e until opposition got you shot.” So, I am pleased that my Grand-father didn’t stop to resist Nazism when the bullets started to fly. According to you, the Churches did resist Hitler until it was too dangerous… That is heroism or I don’t know what it is…

[Montmorency]

Apparently yes, as France is still describe as a Christian Country even if less than 10% of the population go to churches.

Misleading for a number of reasons.

1. Religious identification is what is quantified by the state for administrative purposes, not "trueness" to doctrine or ideals. In this area, it's all about self-identification. What do the citizens see themselves as?

2. 10% makes Christianity the dominant religion in the country. There isn't even a need to suddenly adopt such a restrictive definition anyway. Why equivocate?

3. Christianity is the religion that has had the most significant influence on French culture, institutions, language, etc. Is France a Western country?

The only thing we know for sure is what he said in public meetings.

http://www.amazon.com/Hitlers-Table-.../dp/1929631057

And other private comments. Unless "public" includes all words to his closest associates?

He never said he didn’t.

He commended Christ for agitating against the Jews, but thought his values as laid out in the Bible were a corruption of recording and translation. He clearly wasn't into that 'peace & neighborliness' stuff. Look at all his sayings on the eternal struggle for survival, the primacy of self-defense, and so on.

[Sigurd]

“but did Hitler follow Christ?” He never said he didn’t. In speeches in public, he told the crowd he was a Christian, and he followed the Christian Doctrine in blaming the Jews for the death of Jesus… So yes, he did follow a part of the Christian Tradition.

ZOMG... this cant be a Christian doctrine. Anyhow, this is just NOT understanding the purpose of the death of Jesus ACCORDING to Christianity. Remember, they do believe he was a God - and could have prevented this if he chose to. They believe he could have called down fire from the heavens or called a legion of angels that would have leveled the entire empire of Rome to dust. They believe that he chose to die, so that men (humans) might be released from Adam's transgression and could attain resurrection and live forever in glory with God. This is the Christian Doctrine of Christ's death. Why would they blame the Jews for this? They should thank them.

[HoreTore]

Still, "they killed Jesus" has been among the key aspects of christian antisemitism.

As for "who is a christian", I'd say the answer is "whoever defines themselves as such".

[Sigurd]

Still, "they killed Jesus" has been among the key aspects of christian antisemitism.

An oxymoron if there ever was one.

As for "who is a christian", I'd say the answer is "whoever defines themselves as such".

The correct answer would be: Only God knows who is Christian and who is not.

[HoreTore]

The correct answer would be: Only God knows who is Christian and who is not.

Only correct within christianity, not for those on the outside.

[Sigurd]

Only correct within christianity, not for those on the outside.

Why would those outside Christianity want to define themselves as Christians?

[HoreTore]

Why would those outside Christianity want to define themselves as Christians?

No idea, so that wasn't my point

Defining "christian" your way probably makes sense to a christian. For someone like me who doesn't believe in any gods, it makes no sense. I will have to define a christian as being those who define themselves that way.

[Sigurd]

No idea, so that wasn't my point

Defining "christian" your way probably makes sense to a christian. For someone like me who doesn't believe in any gods, it makes no sense. I will have to define a christian as being those who define themselves that way.

It makes perfect sense to me, not being a Christian myself. If someone claims to be a Christian, I would have to retort: That is for your God to decide. ... begging the question you say?? whaddayamean?

[Brenus]

“And other private comments.” Yes. People asking questions to former Nazi having a lot to be forgotten and saying what Hitler said (AFTER the war), trying to please the victors… Very reliable witnesses: But wasn’t the Vatican that organise the escape to Argentina and others South American Countries of all the Nazis left without jobs?

“Christianity is the religion that has had the most significant influence on French culture, institutions, language, etc.” As culture is concern, as much as Paganism, Invasions (various), Colonisation and Wars, nothing for the institutions (France doesn’t follow the Rules of St Augustin anymore), and I can’t say that French is linked with Christianity. Latin was first the language of the Romans before to be the language of Christianity, and is the combination of 2 main streams medieval French (langue d’Oc and Langue d’Oi).

[Montmorency]

Yes. People asking questions to former Nazi having a lot to be forgotten and saying what Hitler said (AFTER the war), trying to please the victors… Very reliable witnesses: But wasn’t the Vatican that organise the escape to Argentina and others South American Countries of all the Nazis left without jobs?

Basically, you've got nothing? I see.

As culture is concern, as much as Paganism, Invasions (various), Colonisation and Wars, nothing for the institutions (France doesn’t follow the Rules of St Augustin anymore), and I can’t say that French is linked with Christianity. Latin was first the language of the Romans before to be the language of Christianity, and is the combination of 2 main streams medieval French (langue d’Oc and Langue d’Oi).

Christianity has had the most as well as most immediate cultural influence. Paganism isn't a single religion, and I am not convinced that Celtism is more relevant to modern French culture than Christianity.

Christian influence. That isn't to say that modern institutions in France have a strong religious character.

Tabernac, but Latin is not a religion! Calisse!

Do we have anything more to quibble on?

[HoreTore]

It makes perfect sense to me, not being a Christian myself. If someone claims to be a Christian, I would have to retort: That is for your God to decide. ... begging the question you say?? whaddayamean?

Now that's being a smart-ass. Well played, good sir!

[Hax]

Christianity has had the most as well as most immediate cultural influence. Paganism isn't a single religion, and I am not convinced that Celtism is more relevant to modern French culture than Christianity.

Christian influence. That isn't to say that modern institutions in France have a strong religious character.

Tabernac, but Latin is not a religion! Calisse!

That is not how they curse in France, that's joual right there.

[Kival]

An oxymoron if there ever was one.

So reality is and was an an oxymoron? Was Luther e.g. not a Christian or how do you want to claim, that there was no Christian antisemitism whatsoever?

[Brenus]

“Basically, you've got nothing? I see.” I have what Hitler himself said during meetings. And in My Kampf, which is his platform. If you think it is nothing, well, by glasses and you will see. I don’t have second hand comments (well, I have, but some extreme-right novelist contest the reality of it. So I went back to the original: Hitler himself by himself.

“Christianity has had the most as well as most immediate cultural influence. Paganism isn't a single religion, and I am not convinced that Celtism is more relevant to modern French culture than Christianity.” Paganism is a form of religion. Celtism is not relevant to the French Culture (well, except in the French Founding Myths, along the Franks and the Romans. In fact it is funny to study how the French School Books succeeded to make one thing of it. Christianity had an impact of French Culture of course, but it is now over-rated. Largely. The Pope can tell what he wants, nobody care. And even long time ago: You do know that some Popes were “invited” to live in Avignon do you? Not even speaking of Napoleon wedding…

“Tabernac, but Latin is not a religion! Calisse!”: Er, can I remind you that you are the one claiming the influence of Christianity on the French Language, so I supposed you were mentioning Latin: my mistake. So what did you wanted to say when you mentioned the link between French and Christianity?
And I think that you wanted to say “tabernacle” (that is a cupboard) and “Calice” (that is the central part of a flower, looking like a cup, reason why it is as well the name for the recipient used in liturgy). This words are used more in Canada (Quebec) as swearing than in France.
If you want to develop on the use of religious words in French cursing, you can add “Vains dieu” (Useless God) or “Vingt Dieux” (Twenty Gods) I never know which one is the right one (same pronunciation). Old ones: Mordieu. (Death of God), Milledieu (Thousand Gods), Palsambleu (by the blood of God).

All right, time to go to bed…

“Do we have anything more to quibble on?” Bring it on…

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

What, you mean right up to the point where their opposition would mean a damn?

You missed the part about Hitler getting elected being important then, and the Roman Catholics trying to stop it.

Here's a question - why didn't the Pope flee to Ireland after the Italians surrendered and Italy was occupied by the Germans?

Only correct within christianity, not for those on the outside.

People outside Christianity can't be allowed to define who or what we are - that allows you to lump us in with anti-Semites, White Supremacists...

Whatever.

That's like me defining who is and isn't a socialist - ultimately it's for the socialist political movement to decide.

So reality is and was an an oxymoron? Was Luther e.g. not a Christian or how do you want to claim, that there was no Christian antisemitism whatsoever?

Jesus was a Jew - and antisemitism is a complex phenomenon, I'll give you a cookie if you can work out why, historically, almost every group has persecuted Jews.