Was Hitler a christian? and atheist morallity

[Kadagar_AV]

A) The basis for atheist morals are very simple: "What would happen if everyone would do it?"

You seem to base your argument around it being a God and that this God have given us morals. Remove God from the equation and what are you left with? You also seem to have exclusively read propaganda trying to explain how Atheists struggles with morals. I would recommend you to read some atheistic texts explaining atheistic morals.

B) What are you arguing for then? I have showed you that christians are less moral atheists. Then how oh how can you go on about atheists having no base for their morals? Try and look at society as it IS instead of how you want it to be.

Fact: Christians are less moral than atheists.
Logical conclusion: A atheist society will be more moral than a christian one.

What in this line of argument is it that you argue against?

And to answer your last bold bit: Easy... Hitler was wrong because if every race would try and conquer and exterminate the other races we would have a rather unpleasant world.


C) I have often seen Christians using the "Hitler was atheist" argument, and it's just stupid. Rhyf already explained why if you didn't get me.

This thread is pointless, it doesn't matter if Hitler was an atheist or a Christian since what he did wasn't related to those beliefs.

[spankythehippo]

In my life, I have not been guided by religion. I have learnt morals from others, and by my own trials and errors. That isn't to say that I killed someone, then felt bad afterwards. I can empathise, as an atheist. And to be honest, most morals implemented society can trace their lineage to an ecclesiastic order.

Darwinism and morality are completely different facets on life. Darwinism states the way nature has bred organisms to be. Morality guides those who have a conscious decision of right and wrong.

Does that make atheists immoral?

[total relism]

In my life, I have not been guided by religion. I have learnt morals from others, and by my own trials and errors. That isn't to say that I killed someone, then felt bad afterwards. I can empathise, as an atheist. And to be honest, most morals implemented society can trace their lineage to an ecclesiastic order.

Darwinism and morality are completely different facets on life. Darwinism states the way nature has bred organisms to be. Morality guides those who have a conscious decision of right and wrong.

Does that make atheists immoral?

I think you missed the point, if you would, my first line says this is not at all what this thread is on. Please read OP.

[spankythehippo]

I think you missed the point, if you would, my first line says this is not at all what this thread is on. Please read OP.

I think you missed the point, my post says nothing in regard to the OP. Please be mindful that the OP is not the benchmark for a discussion. It merely gets the ball rolling. Imagine living a life where you had to adhere to the same style of thinking for 2000 years. Gah, I shudder at the thought. Exactly what you are doing with every post, alluding to the OP.

Also, I'm pretty sure we had an excellent discussion about pubic hair on a thread about Nazi's. Goes to show the dynamic nature of the Backroom.

[Kadagar_AV]

I think you missed the point, my post says nothing in regard to the OP. Please be mindful that the OP is not the benchmark for a discussion. It merely gets the ball rolling. Imagine living a life where you had to adhere to the same style of thinking for 2000 years. Gah, I shudder at the thought. Exactly what you are doing with every post, alluding to the OP.

Also, I'm pretty sure we had an excellent discussion about pubic hair on a thread about Nazi's. Goes to show the dynamic nature of the Backroom.

You don't get it... You need to counter his arguments with the other sides arguments as he has presented them in the OP. Doh!

Because that is how debates work.

[Crazed Rabbit]

I agree with Kadagar that there is a foundation for morals in an atheist society. Human beings, religious or not, naturally empathize with others. And even morals could be based on a society's need to survive and compete, in evolutionary terms. I.e. do not harm others, work together, etc.

Having said that...

B) In the US, Christians are over represented in criminal statistics. The conclusions to draw from this would be that Christianity have a negative impact on moral in society, no?

Only if you do not understand the difference between correlation and causation, an elementary statistical analysis concept.

Also, there's probably better books to read on atheist morality than Dawkin's, who's a jerk.

CR

[Kadagar_AV]

I agree with Kadagar that there is a foundation for morals in an atheist society. Human beings, religious or not, naturally empathize with others. And even morals could be based on a society's need to survive and compete, in evolutionary terms. I.e. do not harm others, work together, etc.

Having said that...



Only if you do not understand the difference between correlation and causation, an elementary statistical analysis concept.

Also, there's probably better books to read on atheist morality than Dawkin's, who's a jerk.

CR

Of course it's a rubbish argument. I just tried to meet the OP on a more level playing field.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

You don't get it... You need to counter his arguments with the other sides arguments as he has presented them in the OP. Doh!

Because that is how debates work.

The two of you are talking at cross purposes - I've skimmed your posts but I already know the whole argument because we've had it so many times here.

total realism - you are not original, you have not made some earth shattering philosophical discovery, go read Plato.

Kadagar - go have a beer and don't worry about it. Aftr the beer, it may make more sense.

[Rhyfelwyr]

The two of you are talking at cross purposes - I've skimmed your posts but I already know the whole argument because we've had it so many times here.

I'm not going to read TR's walls of copypasta, but from what I can gather...

I think Kadagar is talking more on the practical side - that atheists generally are moral people. Whereas TR is trying to say that in doing so atheists are being logically inconsistent, as in his own less eloquent fashion he is referring to your argument that absolute morals can't exist without a universial arbiter ie God.

Although TR is frustrated because he thinks Kadagar can't see this (he may or may not), the real problem is that TR is not open to the idea of any other concepts of morality - for example that morals might not be absolute, and may just be the result of evolution. He might not regard such an idea of morality as meaningful, but it is a commonly accepted explanation for what we observe as morality. He has to accept it is a valid (if not correct) explanation.

Otherwise everyone will continue to be at cross purposes.

total realism - you are not original, you have not made some earth shattering philosophical discovery, go read Plato.

This, srsly the "Hitler was an atheist" and "Darwin an a racist sexist therefore so are all evolutionists" lines or argument are the most boring and easily refutable out there.

I'm wondering if TR is maybe a fairly recent convert, and is currently in the sort of 'cage stage' mentality. With the internet he's been exposed to a lot of ideas that seem new to be really new and exciting but in fact to us it's flogging a horse that died long ago. I think I went through the same process myself. Sorry to sound condescending, and I could be miles off, but that's what it feels like...

[total relism]

A) The basis for atheist morals are very simple: "What would happen if everyone would do it?"

You seem to base your argument around it being a God and that this God have given us morals. Remove God from the equation and what are you left with? You also seem to have exclusively read propaganda trying to explain how Atheists struggles with morals. I would recommend you to read some atheistic texts explaining atheistic morals.

B) What are you arguing for then? I have showed you that christians are less moral atheists. Then how oh how can you go on about atheists having no base for their morals? Try and look at society as it IS instead of how you want it to be.

Fact: Christians are less moral than atheists.
Logical conclusion: A atheist society will be more moral than a christian one.

What in this line of argument is it that you argue against?

And to answer your last bold bit: Easy... Hitler was wrong because if every race would try and conquer and exterminate the other races we would have a rather unpleasant world.


C) I have often seen Christians using the "Hitler was atheist" argument, and it's just stupid. Rhyf already explained why if you didn't get me.

This thread is pointless, it doesn't matter if Hitler was an atheist or a Christian since what he did wasn't related to those beliefs.

A] does not reply to anything I have posted,I understand you are having alot of trouble understanding. I get the feeling your not reading my replies.Please do so slowly. If you do, you will see none of A applies at all.


B] I will respond the same way as last time you said this, please read carefully.

Not at all as has been pointed out, even if all atheist were moral 100% and all "christian" bad 100%. that does not matter to what we are disusing.There is no such thing as morals in a atheistic worldview, there is reason to be moral in a christian worldview. You are being inconstant with your beliefs by claiming and being moral as a atheist.Read my first response. Read your own post 4 that refutes what you claim here. you contradict yourself.


I will give you some parts of response.

Again completely missed point again, I never said morals would not arise in a atheistic society [none of what you listed were]. I never said atheist are not moral, I said morals make no sense in a atheistic worldview, you are being inconstant claiming there is moral "right" and "wrongs" read OP slowly.

I was saying that the belief or feeling that atheist get [if atheism is true] that murder,rape,sexism etc are wrong, is nothing more than random chemical reactions in there brain. They have no right to tell another person [random chemical reactions] That thinks murder,rape,sexism are good [hitler]. That that person is wrong to do so. there is no way to now if you, and not the other person have the right chemical reactions. In fact there is no "right" reactions, or good or bad.


Why do they deserve to be treated good?that is just your opinion,your random chemicals in brain making you believe they have value if atheism is true.

As I pointed out before with darwin quotes, my point was why not be racist sexist if evolution is true? You cannot give any reason that caging up woman to reproduce and pass on my genes is "wrong", in fact it is survival of the fittest. As hitler and darwin point out, you would be doing the opposite of evolution and what got us here to follow christian morals and to act like people have unalienable rights, and value.These are biblical ideas that people were created in the image of god.,

But as atheist, why would you allow woman to have rights? what makes you think they deserve them? they are just random matter, why not as men are stronger lock them up and force them to have sex with us as we please?. You act like they have value and right etc but this only comes if they are given these right or have unalienable right, such as if they were created in the image of god.

so the question is, on what grounds as atheist can you say Hitler and Darwin are wrong? they are drawing the logical conclusion of atheism/evolution.The point is you cannot, you have no authority or grounds to claim your morality on.



Fact
Please provide evidence, also there are "christian" and true christian.
But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.
james 2.18
Why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say?
luke 6.46
15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?
matt 7 15-16


Conclusion
Even if true, does not matter at all, read op and every post I have made since than.


Line of argument
read every post on subject I have made, read OP.


You said
" Hitler was wrong because if every race would try and conquer and exterminate the other races we would have a rather unpleasant world."


according to whom? not hitler, he was speeding up evolution, survival of the fittest. He was creating a better world in his mind, killing off handicap people lower less intelligent races, crazy people who believe in god. are not you liberal ones the one that say the earth is overpopulated?.

I was saying that the belief or feeling that atheist get [if atheism is true] that murder,rape,sexism etc are wrong, is nothing more than random chemical reactions in there brain. They have no right to tell another person [random chemical reactions] That thinks murder,rape,sexism are good [hitler]. That that person is wrong to do so. there is no way to now if you, and not the other person have the right chemical reactions. In fact there is no "right" reactions, or good or bad.

Why do they deserve to be treated good?that is just your opinion,your random chemicals in brain making you believe they have value if atheism is true.

so the question is, on what grounds as atheist can you say Hitler and Darwin are wrong? they are drawing the logical conclusion of atheism/evolution.The point is you cannot, you have no authority or grounds to claim your morality on.


C] I agree it does not apply to what we are talking about, so why do you say christian are worse than non christian? it does not apply. What matters is worldview, hitlers atheistic/evolutionary and darwins worldview is inconstant with morals. Christian worldview is constant, you are being christian claiming there are morals and right and wrongs even though you are atheist. You are being inconstant.


Also I dont think you want to compare total crimes of atheist vs christian in history, that would not go well for you.

[Kadagar_AV]

My oh my...

I don't think much progress will be made here.