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Originally Posted by Kralizec:
Allthough you're presumably using it as a random example, I'd pitch in and say that if that's what it takes, then do it. If their parents cause trouble, use SWAT teams to get these kids into school. If those kids grow up without high school diplomas I garantue you the next generations of Roma will be as bad as the current lot.
That alone is not going to solve the problems, but it's a precondition.
Using SWAT teams will just cause them to cry that they are being repressed and one thousand pseudo humanist NPP organizations will bitch to Brussels of how the BG government is terrorizing the minorities. Remember last time with Milosevic? Because the Albanians back then were a similar problem for Serbia. Don't ask me though, ask the Serbian guy right there.Allthough you're presumably using it as a random example, I'd pitch in and say that if that's what it takes, then do it. If their parents cause trouble, use SWAT teams to get these kids into school. If those kids grow up without high school diplomas I garantue you the next generations of Roma will be as bad as the current lot.
That alone is not going to solve the problems, but it's a precondition.
Originally Posted by Myth:
Using SWAT teams will just cause them to cry that they are being repressed and one thousand pseudo humanist NPP organizations will bitch to Brussels of how the BG government is terrorizing the minorities. Remember last time with Milosevic? Because the Albanians back then were a similar problem for Serbia. Don't ask me though, ask the Serbian guy right there.
A wonderful example of balkan nationalist mentality.Using SWAT teams will just cause them to cry that they are being repressed and one thousand pseudo humanist NPP organizations will bitch to Brussels of how the BG government is terrorizing the minorities. Remember last time with Milosevic? Because the Albanians back then were a similar problem for Serbia. Don't ask me though, ask the Serbian guy right there.
America, ready your bombers....
Originally Posted by Myth:
Got any proof that these are not ad-hoc cases or simply dark skinned Europeans or middle easterners? We have plenty of Arabs studying medicine here, perhaps you got confused?
Hilarious.Got any proof that these are not ad-hoc cases or simply dark skinned Europeans or middle easterners? We have plenty of Arabs studying medicine here, perhaps you got confused?
I have no idea if any Roma get higher education in Bulgaria. Given the regimes there, it wouldn't surprise me that much if the number was zero or close to zero.
In civilized states built on enlightenment and law as opposed to tribalism and oppression however, Roma do attend university and integrate into society.
Originally Posted by HoreTore:
A wonderful example of balkan nationalist mentality.
America, ready your bombers....
You clearly have no clue HoreTore. Trying to use any force agianst a minority creates such problems, that's why the Roma get away with more than they should.A wonderful example of balkan nationalist mentality.
America, ready your bombers....
Originally Posted by HoreTore:
Hilarious.
I have no idea if any Roma get higher education in Bulgaria. Given the regimes there, it wouldn't surprise me that much if the number was zero or close to zero.
In civilized states built on enlightenment and law as opposed to tribalism and oppression however, Roma do attend university and integrate into society.
So, apart from the fact that you're implying Bulgaria is an uncivilized state built on tribalism and oppression (Which is funny, you may look up how old the Bulgarian nation is and when we had written language and advanced architecture) you're saying that in Glorious Mother Norway everyone has a university diploma and the gypsies are all productive members of society? Can you show me facts or you will just continue blowing hot air?Hilarious.
I have no idea if any Roma get higher education in Bulgaria. Given the regimes there, it wouldn't surprise me that much if the number was zero or close to zero.
In civilized states built on enlightenment and law as opposed to tribalism and oppression however, Roma do attend university and integrate into society.
Also, I want to clearly state that I do believe the corrupt and inept government certainly has a part in the problem and it could do much better, but it is absolutely preposterous to say that the gypsies are just regular misunderstood folk and that it's all part of some grand intolerance towards them. YOU haven't seen a "roma" from 50 meters away, you've never stepped inside a ghetto, your grandparents don't have them as neighbours in your village, so therefore your argument is biased and based on assumptions and information fed to you by the media.
Originally Posted by Myth:
Using SWAT teams will just cause them to cry that they are being repressed and one thousand pseudo humanist NPP organizations will bitch to Brussels of how the BG government is terrorizing the minorities. Remember last time with Milosevic? Because the Albanians back then were a similar problem for Serbia. Don't ask me though, ask the Serbian guy right there.
I don't know what incident you're referring to (in regards to Milosovic)Using SWAT teams will just cause them to cry that they are being repressed and one thousand pseudo humanist NPP organizations will bitch to Brussels of how the BG government is terrorizing the minorities. Remember last time with Milosevic? Because the Albanians back then were a similar problem for Serbia. Don't ask me though, ask the Serbian guy right there.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not a Roma apologist. I'm sure they'll find excuses to complain one way or the other regardless of what's done or not done. The SWAT part was hyperbole, meant to express that the state should ensure every kid gets a minimum of education, even those with uncooperative parents.
Originally Posted by Kralizec:
I don't know what incident you're referring to (in regards to Milosovic)
Don't get me wrong, I'm not a Roma apologist. I'm sure they'll find excuses to complain one way or the other regardless of what's done or not done. The SWAT part was hyperbole, meant to express that the state should ensure every kid gets a minimum of education, even those with uncooperative parents.
A little on the side, but anyway:I don't know what incident you're referring to (in regards to Milosovic)
Don't get me wrong, I'm not a Roma apologist. I'm sure they'll find excuses to complain one way or the other regardless of what's done or not done. The SWAT part was hyperbole, meant to express that the state should ensure every kid gets a minimum of education, even those with uncooperative parents.
In On Freedom, the second part of the book is dedicated to practical applications of the theories on liberty in the first part of the book. There, Mill argues that given his theory of liberalism, parents should be hanged if their children don't perform well at school.
I have that book, the original English text. It's called On Liberty 
Been a while since I've read it.
Been a while since I've read it.
Originally Posted by Kralizec:
I have that book, the original English text. It's called On Liberty
Been a while since I've read it.
Gah, of course. I have a norwegian translation called "Om Friheten", and the word "frihet" translates as both "liberty" and "freedom"...I have that book, the original English text. It's called On Liberty
Been a while since I've read it.
Myth, I wasn't talking about using force against roma. I was talking about the need for another Milosevic-operation. We'll get there sooner or later if the balkans don't shape up soon.
Ain't no one arguing for extermination and genocide, but now I think the western countries are overcompensating up to the point the when justice has to be delivered it can't be done without raising a red flag somewhere on the other side of Europe that those damn Balkan peeps are molesting the gypsies again.
I can show you a video documentary where anonymous cops are admitting that arrests are impossible in the Roma ghettoes. They come out in droves of 50-100 and threaten and shove the cops away. If this was America they would have gotten shot in their damn faces, but if it happens here the conflict will escalate and the gendarmerie will have to move in. And then we have Faux news blabbering about "Civil unrest and trampling of human rights against ethnic minorities." When Bulgarian students go out to protest they get beaten with batons, but the cops refuse do use the special police forces against the Roma, because if nothing else, the Roma have learned that there is strength in numbers and unity and they all stick together. That's why it's funny when urban legends about skinheads going and beating them abound - everyone who's been in a ghetto or even a bar fight that involves Roma knows that you're not fighting one guy or two guys but every gypsy within a radius of half a kilometer.
They rioted, right here in Sofia, a few years back. They had come out wielding knives, scimithars, pitchforks, staves and other assorted arms from the 1200s and shouted how heads will roll. The police had shrunk back like a scrotum in cold water, from fear that if they use their shields and batons the fighting will not end there and fundamentally we're back to square 1. So the current (retarded) decision of the government is to leave them be and let them steal, beg, prostitute and rape instead of having a much messier problem on their hands, one which could possibly make us seem even more incompetent before Brussels (but I think that's rather hard to achieve).
If you see videos of the riots in Spain you see police brutality abounds. For example this:
Youtube Video
America isn't bombing them because that's acceptable, since ethnic Spaniards are having their heads caved in. If we do that here in order to remove the illegal buildings, to evict/arrest those who have broken the law, to stop the bands who lie to elderly people over the phone and steal their savings, to stop those who steal livestock and produce in the rural areas (heck, they even steal the doors off of people's fences) we would get a knee-jerk reaction from western europe that we're bullying the minorities. And believe me the roma stick together so much that it's impossible to bring law in their ghettoes without the aforementioned methods.
I can show you a video documentary where anonymous cops are admitting that arrests are impossible in the Roma ghettoes. They come out in droves of 50-100 and threaten and shove the cops away. If this was America they would have gotten shot in their damn faces, but if it happens here the conflict will escalate and the gendarmerie will have to move in. And then we have Faux news blabbering about "Civil unrest and trampling of human rights against ethnic minorities." When Bulgarian students go out to protest they get beaten with batons, but the cops refuse do use the special police forces against the Roma, because if nothing else, the Roma have learned that there is strength in numbers and unity and they all stick together. That's why it's funny when urban legends about skinheads going and beating them abound - everyone who's been in a ghetto or even a bar fight that involves Roma knows that you're not fighting one guy or two guys but every gypsy within a radius of half a kilometer.
They rioted, right here in Sofia, a few years back. They had come out wielding knives, scimithars, pitchforks, staves and other assorted arms from the 1200s and shouted how heads will roll. The police had shrunk back like a scrotum in cold water, from fear that if they use their shields and batons the fighting will not end there and fundamentally we're back to square 1. So the current (retarded) decision of the government is to leave them be and let them steal, beg, prostitute and rape instead of having a much messier problem on their hands, one which could possibly make us seem even more incompetent before Brussels (but I think that's rather hard to achieve).
If you see videos of the riots in Spain you see police brutality abounds. For example this:
Youtube Video
America isn't bombing them because that's acceptable, since ethnic Spaniards are having their heads caved in. If we do that here in order to remove the illegal buildings, to evict/arrest those who have broken the law, to stop the bands who lie to elderly people over the phone and steal their savings, to stop those who steal livestock and produce in the rural areas (heck, they even steal the doors off of people's fences) we would get a knee-jerk reaction from western europe that we're bullying the minorities. And believe me the roma stick together so much that it's impossible to bring law in their ghettoes without the aforementioned methods.
HoreTore, I had the same view as you about the "poor gypsies" before I started frequenting Romania some many years ago...
Myth strikes me as a rather normal representative of how they think. The Romanians I met by and large wished for a good solution with the gypsies, given the amount of tension and problems, I think the Romanian people are VERY understanding and accepting, if anything. There are of course the odd extremist, but by and large, I saw a people trying to make their country work with a VERY problematic minority group.
Myth strikes me as a rather normal representative of how they think. The Romanians I met by and large wished for a good solution with the gypsies, given the amount of tension and problems, I think the Romanian people are VERY understanding and accepting, if anything. There are of course the odd extremist, but by and large, I saw a people trying to make their country work with a VERY problematic minority group.
Originally Posted by HoreTore:
It's already done, so this post isn't relevant.
Yeah, for like 5%, after centuries of effort.It's already done, so this post isn't relevant.
Originally Posted by Kralizec:
Allthough you're presumably using it as a random example, I'd pitch in and say that if that's what it takes, then do it. If their parents cause trouble, use SWAT teams to get these kids into school. If those kids grow up without high school diplomas I garantue you the next generations of Roma will be as bad as the current lot.
That alone is not going to solve the problems, but it's a precondition.
I agree, but for 300,000 Roma, that's one million policemen. In a country of 8 million people. Allthough you're presumably using it as a random example, I'd pitch in and say that if that's what it takes, then do it. If their parents cause trouble, use SWAT teams to get these kids into school. If those kids grow up without high school diplomas I garantue you the next generations of Roma will be as bad as the current lot.
That alone is not going to solve the problems, but it's a precondition.
It's hard to do anything because they're simply outside the system. No address, no telephone number, no job, no schooling, no birth control, no family planning, no goals (in out western sense), no care for their children, no nothing.
You put a gypsy in jail, it's like a vacation for him - hey, it's free food, warm room and more comfortable bed. And I don't have to do anything? Take me in, I'm yours. And then 12 (aged from 3 to 15) of his kids are out on the street begging. And he doesn't care. Usually, they're on the streets even before to get him more money.
I'm all for integrating them, but they resisted it for centuries. And then you have people and NGO's from the west blubbering nonsense how it's easy and it could be done in the blink of an eye if someone just wanted it. After that they open an office in <insert Balkan country>, receive 5 times local average salary for doing absolutely nothing but sitting in a nicely furnished office with air-condition on, repeating the same phrase like a parrot.
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