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Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
If any posts have itched you the wrong way, feel free to report them, and they will be bring to attention far quicker. Sometimes posts can slip by moderators attention.
Days since the Apocalypse began
"We are living in space-age times but there's too many of us thinking with stone-age minds" | How to spot a Humanist
"Men of Quality do not fear Equality." | "Belief doesn't change facts. Facts, if you are reasonable, should change your beliefs."
"The good man is the man who, no matter how morally unworthy he has been, is moving to become better."
John Dewey
Hammer, anvil, forge and fire, chase away The Hoofed Liar. Roof and doorway, block and beam, chase The Trickster from our dreams.Vigilance is our shield, that protects us from our squalid past. Knowledge is our weapon, with which we carve a path to an enlightened future.
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I haven't noticed this bad language..?
You have to define why swearing is or should be edited here:
1) For reasons of censorship (PG13 site, etc)
2) Because of the reasons PVC stated i.e.
"The point is - swearing is intellectually lazy"
"It's lazy and it lowers both the tone and the content of our debates [...] We don't need to swear here to have grown up discussion, quite the opposite."
"that people have been swearing without understanding how to swear, which is just childish."
Personally I think editing swearing and enforcement of a no swearing policy is a complete waste of staff time, ruins discussions, is intrusive and more likely to piss members off. It will kill debates more often than maintain them. If it's for PG13 reasons - then enable the word censor and be done with it, otherwise, you're just re-educating people which is not the role of a computer gaming forum...
Insults are another matter, it's possible to insult someone without use of profanity however...
You have to accept that some people are not as eloquent or as educated as some of the posters here (myself included), but still may have valid points to to make. This kind of thread simply comes across as plain old fashioned snobbery and may even send out a message to some that the .org is a "high brow" forum...
That said, it says a lot about the .org when members simply volunteer to tone it down - rather that than staff involvement.
tl;dr - Much ado about bugger all...
I've noticed one or two instances that caught my attention lately, but never thought there was a pattern.
A couple of weeks ago I said that (paraphrased) "if the creationists don't like evolution in science textbooks, they can go to hell". If that's swearing, then it at least serves a purpose - it illustrates how strongly you feel about something, and it's brief. And it was overall a long post.
And I recall using the word "shitty" from time to time. I never understood why that's considered a swear word anyway, but then again that goes for a lot of them.
I guess I do swear every now and then, and I don't particulary care either way. If the mods decide to enforce Victorian speech taboos I'll abide by them. It's perfectly possible to be crass, and more fun, by using normal words instead of vulgar ones. "Dear sir, it seems you're suffering from verbal diarrhea. Please stop posting, I don't want to catch whatever you have".
* posts to see if his member is senior*
[edit] :( [/edit]
Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar
Plain old fashioned snobbery?
Ah, well that would be an insult.
Swear words are either insults against a deity (blasphemy) a curse (duh) or a reference to bodily functions (profanity)
You can make a valid point without swearwords and in fact swearwords would contravene Backroom rules as well as the PG-13 rating.
An excellent example - cursing someone to Hell is actually highly offensive if that person believes in Hell. You should see the blood drain when you do it, it's very shocking.
Profanity is the least serious form of foul language, but it's none the less unnecessary.And I recall using the word "shitty" from time to time. I never understood why that's considered a swear word anyway, but then again that goes for a lot of them.
Everybody seems to have forgotten - these rules used to be enforced, all asterisks, all the time.I guess I do swear every now and then, and I don't particulary care either way. If the mods decide to enforce Victorian speech taboos I'll abide by them. It's perfectly possible to be crass, and more fun, by using normal words instead of vulgar ones. "Dear sir, it seems you're suffering from verbal diarrhea. Please stop posting, I don't want to catch whatever you have".
"If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."
[IMG]https://img197.imageshack.us/img197/4917/logoromans23pd.jpg[/IMG]
Comes across as.
Obviously, no insult was intended. Perhaps it came across as an insult, if so apologies.
We've had all of this in the past and as an ex moderator I can tell you that moderating swear words is no fun at all and IMO was stifling this place... The constant rounds of editing, warnings, infractions, people playing reporting games, etc was ridiculous. Mods might miss the odd word, or one mod's idea of swearing might differ to another mod's, but in general most of the swearing which was spotted was the stuff which was being reported - and if someone is reporting on someone else, it's often due to some kind of history or bad blood... utterly pointless.
Personally I think it's good that you've raised this issue and that members have responded positively in that some of those involved are willing to tone it down. That is in my honest opinion the right way to tackle this, rather than resorting to the staff safety net approach.
Cursing to hell seems like flaming, more so than just language... but it depends on context, the intent and those involved. If it's just banter between two friends, then it's surely not an issue...?
Last edited by caravel; 11-15-2012 at 17:30. Reason: typo
This explains my view on profanity (and others here, judging by comments) pretty well.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
I'm surprised to see that this topic has received as much traction as it did. The Backroom is really running out of things to discuss.
"And if the people raise a great howl against my barbarity and cruelty, I will answer that war is war and not popularity seeking. If they want peace, they and their relatives must stop the war." - William Tecumseh Sherman
“The market, like the Lord, helps those who help themselves. But unlike the Lord, the market does not forgive those who know not what they do.” - Warren Buffett
People say this, but I don't agree. The problem is just that old topics get rehashed instead bringing up more abstract concerns and claims.
I don't think many political discussion forums have a thread arguing over the way history should be interpreted, yet we do, and it was a big thread because it was new even though at face value it seems a silly thing to argue about.
So am I.
To use excessive profanity for the sake of swearing is one thing, and here I would agree, it certainly does not enhance any sort of discussion or cordial discourse, but to ban it outright, is another. I have never uttered a swear word in these fora but I have indeed been tempted in the last few weeks as one or two posters have spewed such utter nonesense, it would have been more than deserving. 'Bullshit' comes to mind. But where do you draw the line? As someone has pointed out, this is an international forum wherein a plethora of opinions are voiced by people with vastly different backgrounds, ages, and creeds.
Are we being too politically correct? Do we have the right to be offended or to offend? A right to insult or be insulted? For me, the answer to all of these questions is a resounding 'YES'! Why can't we just say (write) what we really think of someone/something? We do it in everyday life also. To not do so, is simply being dishonest. There are plenty of people here who can hold their own. This is not to say that one can simply go on a disreputable spree of abuse and draw the line in the tundra when it should be drawn in the sand, but to forbid warranted attacks on moronic arguments with the use of expletives should, in my humble opinion, be allowed.
If people's feelings are hurt by someone else wishing them to hell - well then, quite frankly, my feelings are hurt because there are still people who hold true to such archaic tripe and I have to count myself to the same species as them. Get over it and, if you must, do not resort to name-calling or perceived insults yourself - be the 'better' person that you claim to be (surely must be) and leave the rest of us alone with your so precious beliefs.
So there - agree or disagree - I could not give a rat's arse
Quid
...for it is revenge I seek...
Cry Havoc and let slip the dogs of war
Juleus Ceasar, Shakespear
In this specific case, it's not whether that person actually goes to hell, but that fact that someone would wish it upon them (even if it isn't done with serious intent).
Swear words don't physically hurt people, but they can hurt the sentiments of some people, who might not be thick skinned enough to withstand verbal blows. It's rare these days, specially online, but not non existent.
The horizon is nothing save the limit of our sight.
Since this board is chock-full of history nerds, we should also avoid archaic terms for sexytime. Here, a helpful culling from the 1811 masterpiece, Dictionary of the Vulgar Tongue.
1. Amorous congress
To say two people were engaged in the amorous congress was by far the most polite option on the list, oftentimes serving as the definition for other, less discreet synonyms.
2. Basket-making
"Those two recently opened a basket-making shop." From a method of making children's stockings, in which knitting the heel is called basket-making.
3. Bread and butter
One on top of the other. "Rumor has it he found her bread and butter fashion with the neighbor."
4. Brush
"Yeah, we had a brush once." The emphasis here is on brevity; just a fling, no big deal.
5. Clicket
"They left together, so they're probably at clicket." This was originally used only for foxes, but became less specific as more and more phrases for doing it were needed.
6. Face-making
Aside from the obvious, this also comes from "making children," because babies have faces.
7. Blanket hornpipe
There is probably no way to use this in seriousness or discreetly, but there you have it.
8. Blow the grounsils
"Grounsils" are foundation timbers, so "on the floor."
9. Convivial society
Similar to "amorous congress" in that this was a gentler term suitable for even the noble classes to use, even if they only whispered it.
10. Take a flyer
"Flyers" being shoes, this is "dressed, or without going to bed."
11. Green gown
Giving a girl a green gown can only happen in the grass.
12. Lobster kettle
A woman who sleeps with soldiers coming in at port is said to "make a lobster kettle" of herself.
13. Melting moments
Those shared by "a fat man and woman in amorous congress."
14. Pully hawly
A game at pully hawly is a series of affairs.
15. St. George
In the story of St. George and the Dragon, the dragon reared up from the lake to tower over the saint. "Playing at St. George" casts a woman as the dragon and puts her on top.
16. A stitch
Similar to having a brush, "making a stitch" is a casual affair.
17. Tiff
A tiff could be a minor argument or falling-out, as we know it. In the 19th century, it was also a term for eating or drinking between meals, or in this case, a quickie.
Last edited by Lemur; 11-16-2012 at 23:42.
Last edited by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus; 11-21-2012 at 16:07.
"If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."
[IMG]https://img197.imageshack.us/img197/4917/logoromans23pd.jpg[/IMG]
True, I don't understand curses. But the only reason I don't understand it is because curses don't matter to me. If someone wished I was dead, I couldn't care less. If someone was physically planning to make me dead, then that's a different story.
I understand that people get offended, I just don't understand WHY they are offended. Just ignore it and move on.
As I understand it the thing about curses is not just the wish but the magical thinking that the wish might just have that power to actually harm you. Of course for the full effect you need the recipient of your cursing to believe in magic. Which might explain why religious people tend to find it more offensive.
Still, I do not see why we would need to swear or curse at each other in here.
- Tellos Athenaios
CUF tool - XIDX - PACK tool - SD tool - EVT tool - EB Install Guide - How to track down loading CTD's - EB 1.1 Maps thread
“ὁ δ᾽ ἠλίθιος ὣσπερ πρόβατον βῆ βῆ λέγων βαδίζει” – Kratinos in Dionysalexandros.
To be honest, we did loosen the language rules and became more lenient. This was well spotted by Philippvs.
It started mostly as some sort of experiment, to see where it would get us and has to be seen as part of a switch to a more "hands off" approach in moderation.
The reason not to communicate the change to the membership at large, was because we wanted to see things developping naturally and to avoid somebody ruining the experiment by abusing the leniency and making "f-bomb, f-bomb f-bomb lol f-bomb"-posts.
The .Org always presented itself as a place for a mature audience where mature people come together, have a good time and can be in good company in a civilised and friendly atmosphere. Over the years, our language policy became pretty strict. The reasons for it were good and reasonable: bad language gives the impression of a less friendly and civilised atmosphere. But the balance probably shifted a bit too much to the "clean" side.
Strict moderation on language conflicts somehow with the .Org being "mature" part. If the membership is mature, then surely it doesn't need somebody to tell them how to behave as such.
After reading this thread, I believe most of us don't mind a "bad" word here and there, but a few of you don't really like it. Some of you foul mouthers promised to tone it down, others said they don't see a problem with bad language and gave good reasonable arguments. I think we're all mature and wise enough to find some sort of unwritten agreement and compromise that takes into account everybody's desires. As long as nobody exaggerates, the lenient rules can stay, imo. The leniency doesn't mean everything goes, however. F-bombs will still be frowned upon and slurs will always be no. Excessive swearing with the sole purpose of provocation, without real substance in the post may still result in moderator action. But you can consider it offical that we'll be far less strict than we were in the past when it comes to language.
Our software also allows to use a language filter. How would you feel about such a filter? And if most agree on using a filter, would you prefer ***, or another smiley to replace the filtered words?
I'll move this to the Watchtower, but will leave a redirect in the BR
Andres is our Lord and Master and could strike us down with thunderbolts or beer cans at any time. ~Askthepizzaguy
Ja mata, TosaInu
Well, what's the age restriction on the Org now, 13 or 18? If it's 18 then people can drop as many f-bombs as they like and I'll laugh at them.
Otherwise, the Org should abide by the "PG-13" policy it has since I joined.
"If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."
[IMG]https://img197.imageshack.us/img197/4917/logoromans23pd.jpg[/IMG]
It's the web... there is rarely 100% "PG13" on the web and the .org never had any real PG13 enforcement anyway...
Proper PG13 enforcement involves the use of the word censor and bans for those who circumvent it. It's censorship to "protect" minors, plain and simple. You don't leave this kind of censorship to section moderators who have no powers over their colleague's sections and might not log in for hours (days, weeks...).
The .org in it's history never used the built in word censor, it simply deployed moderators painstakingly editing out swearwords and issuing infractions... This policy was more about educating members not to swear and maintaining the "prestige" or decorum of the site rather than censorship. I expect that many will disagree, but I believe this goes well beyond a moderator's role and what a gaming forum is all about...
Regardless, it was unfair and ineffective, as it's unreasonable to expect humans to read through thousands of posts scanning for obscene words and editing them out. Not only that, but the staff then have to deal with the inevitable fallout when it turns out that, though they edited member A's post, they completely missed member B's post.
As I commented earlier, if the manual editing of bad language is based on reports, it tends to be even less reliable. It's not a good system...
Andres makes the key point: If the .org is the maturer TW fan site, it needs neither the censor nor the nannies...
Last edited by caravel; 11-21-2012 at 12:43.
lol Didn't this very topic and changes were asked some time ago?
Imo people can say whatever they want, I personally dislike the format "whatever-bomb/word)", the moment you say it or write it, everyone is thinking that very term, you are trying to avoid: so well done accomplishing exactly what you didn't want to XD
I'm part of the "words are words" party I guess lol
Still the choice is up to the Org's admins and mods, I don't know whether they must abide by the law of the country hosting their server of if it's a personal room, so really up the owner...
Last edited by Arjos; 11-21-2012 at 15:58.
I for one would appreciate more ruthless moderators - a distinct lack of ruthlessness led to the recent debacle which very nearly prompted me to leave and I'm only still hear because a couple of people I respect took a fair bit of time to talk me down.
If this is the mature Org site then it shouldn't include swearing - if that results in infractions and temp-bans then so be it. You can get thrown out of actual "mature" institutions for less, I was once nearly thrown out of pub for raucous drunken singing.
From what I have seen there has been a significant uptick in swearing since the policy was relaxed, this tells me it was working because editing and fear of censure kept swearing almost completely off the board - now the policy is being relaxed and people are clearly pushing the boundaries.
"If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."
[IMG]https://img197.imageshack.us/img197/4917/logoromans23pd.jpg[/IMG]
It's great until you're in the receiving end, then it's not so great...
"Ruthless moderation" creates and nurtures the kind of member that cannot exist without babysitting - the kind of member who simply does whatever they can get away with and then whines and complains when the staff do hit them. They are usually the same types of members who play "rules lawyer" and post reporting games.
I agree that for certain offences in the past, the penalties should have been both sterner and fairer to both members and staff alike. This would have brought into check certain members who were making a career out of dancing on the line...
The temp bans achieve nothing IMHO, they're never taken seriously and it's usually the same members wearing the infamous "-"... For the younger members - it's a "badge of honour", battle scar or entry into the "leet kewl kids club".
Perhaps the offences they were banned for were far too minor and did not warrant staff involvement? Perhaps they've been given too many chances already and are in need of a longer time out?
But if you were in said club with a group of friends, in a corner, talking politics and one of you happened to let slip the f word - not loudly- and he was immediately thrown out...?
But perhaps editing and fear of censure was also keeping members off the board?
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