Woohoo! No more cleaning!

[Andres]

Finally, the excuse I'm looking for:

Higher risk of divorce when men do housework, Norwegian study finds

"The more a man does in the home, the higher the divorce rate," Thomas Hansen, co-author of the study entitled Equality in the Home, said.

[Monk]

Clearly, the only thing this proves is that Mr. Hansen dislikes doing dishes.

[Gregoshi]

Talk dirty to me, Baby.

[Peasant Phill]

My girlfriend wants to field test this before she believes it.

[caravel]

Well... if you do what I do and rush around breaking stuff and generally doing it badly, you get to avoid doing the cleaning....

[Andres]

Clearly, the only thing this proves is that Mr. Hansen dislikes doing dishes.

Can you blame him? Surely, everybody who manages to produce a scientific study that I can use to prove that having me do the dishes is teh evil, deserves a medal. Also, long live the inventor of the dishwasher.

Well... if you do what I do and rush around breaking stuff and generally doing it badly, you get to avoid doing the cleaning....

I promote you to the position of director of the special operations division in the .Org's male liberation front.

[caravel]

I promote you to the position of director of the special operations division in the .Org's male liberation front.

That sounds impressively bureaucratic, is there free beer.......?

[TinCow]

That's why I have a housekeeper.

[Fragony]

That's why I have a housekeeper.

Same. Putting stuff in the garbage bin is one thing but actually cleaning the place forget it

[Andres]

That's why I have a housekeeper.

I'm too much of a cheapskate to have a housekeeper

I also have been raised with the idea that you don't pay for something you are able to do yourself hammered into me.

[Fragony]

I'm too much of a cheapskate to have a housekeeper

I also have been raised with the idea that you don't pay for something you are able to do yourself hammered into me.

Oh ffs LIVE the crisis. Are you really going to clean your own house when you can pay 20 euro a week to have it done. It's also fun, I used to have a Marrocan housekeeper and I insisted she would always give my plants water. It weren't real plants so all the water immediatly dropped on the floor and she had to mob it up again, and now I know how to curse in arab, it took her 4 months to realise the joke I pulled on her. Yes I am cruel.

[caravel]

Getting back on topic, this one is for TinCow especially:

[Andres]

Oh ffs LIVE the crisis. Are you really going to clean your own house when you can pay 20 euro a week to have it done. It's also fun, I used to have a Marrocan housekeeper and I insisted she would always give my plants water. It weren't real plants so all the water immediatly dropped on the floor and she had to mob it up again, and now I know how to curse in arab, it took her 4 months to realise the joke I pulled on her. Yes I am cruel.

It's probably my upbringing, but I consider it a form of laziness. I was also raised with the (perhaps crazy) idea that people who pay people to do typical household jobs, have an attitude of feeling too good to do it themselves (I'm not saying that is true, it's just the idea that was hammered into me).

Scrubbing toilets on my knees every week helps in keeping my feet on the ground and to prevent me from starting to walk next to my shoes and to feel better than somebody who cleans for a living. It helps to remind me to respect all kinds of work. I don't know about the rest of Europe or the US, but in our Belgian education system, children (and parents) are pushed towards higher education and there's this general atmosphere that working with your hands is something you shouldn't do if you can avoid it, as if that kind of work is inferior to let's say an office job (and the result is that nowadays, you can't find a decent plumber, since everyone being a bit intelligent was/is social pressured into studying for lawyer or psychologist or accountant or whatever that is not working with your hands). I despise that attitude because it leads to a society in which a lot of people (but probably not a large majority) who don't work with their hands think they are better than those who do get their hands dirty. If a guy with an IQ of 140 prefers plumbing, cleaning or carpenting, then let him. He doesn't have to be an architect or an engineer if he doesn't want to. And he shouldn't be talked into feeling miserable because by becoming a carpenter instead of an architect, he failed to get the most out of his life. I'm not sure if it's a typical Belgian thing, but if it is, apologies if this sounds a bit weird.

Regardless, it is my firm believe that everyone in a high paying job should be forced to clean toilets at least once a week.

Since TinCow admitted he doesn't clean his toilets at home, he'll now be forced to clean the staff toilets. Fragony can clean the membership toilets ().

Besides, even if I wanted a housekeeper, it's hard to find one these days

[Fragony]

Nothing like that, it keeps the economy going. I don't enjoy cleaning so I pay someone to do it instead, it gets payed well in cash so no taxes, and if you don't mind me saying I am not the worst person to work for. I am also probably the only person in the world who's cleaner is a retired cage-fighter.

[Andres]

Nothing like that, it keeps the economy going. I don't enjoy cleaning so I pay someone to do it instead, it gets payed well in cash so no taxes, and if you don't mind me saying I am not the worst person to work for. I am also probably the only person in the world who's cleaner is a retired cage-fighter.

I'm not judging you Fragony.

I'm the first one in my family who went to university and was probably raised with prejudices and misconceptions (maybe inspired by jealousy) towards people who are financially well off. Despite now being one of those people myself (I'm not rich, but I can pay the bills, have enough left for savings and am debt free, exception for the mortgage), some of those viewpoints are still a strong part of me. I also think that it weren't all misconceptions and baseless prejudices. I'm fully aware that I'm still tied firmly into my roots and I know that I have to be careful not to be too prejudiced or to even look down on people who are on the luckier side of society financially speaking (even though I'm now on that same side).

That said, I do know quiet a few people who are now in a good paying office job and look down at people who clean or work in construction (some of them were already like that while being a student and it weren't always the rich kids who had that attitude). That's why I think all in a high paying job should clean toilets every week; firstly because money and status have a tendency to change people in an ugly way and secondly to make sure that people who stand higher in the social ranking don't get too disconnected with those who are struggling to make a living every day.

[Fragony]

What makes you think I am well off, i live on 40m. I am just not stupid enough to secure any investment, I have enough to get by because I'm not an idiot who takes loans over property, Ill leave that to other people. I am blissfully comfortable with my 40m it's just about what I need, I got a shower, a kitchen, and chairs, and often great company.

[Peasant Phill]

If a guy with an IQ of 140 prefers plumbing, cleaning or carpenting, then let him. He doesn't have to be an architect or an engineer if he doesn't want to. And he shouldn't be talked into feeling miserable because by becoming a carpenter instead of an architect, he failed to get the most out of his life. I'm not sure if it's a typical Belgian thing, but if it is, apologies if this sounds a bit weird.

A bit capable plumber/carpenter/electrician that is willing to do a lot of hours will earn multiple times more than most desk jobs. I'm not looking down on any of them.

(And I cleaned my toilet just yesterday)

[Fragony]

A bit capable plumber/carpenter/electrician that is willing to do a lot of hours will earn multiple times more than most desk jobs. I'm not looking down on any of them.

(And I cleaned my toilet just yesterday)

Funny you even mention being looked down upon, proud about not doing so

[TinCow]

I'm too much of a cheapskate to have a housekeeper

I also have been raised with the idea that you don't pay for something you are able to do yourself hammered into me.

It's probably my upbringing, but I consider it a form of laziness. I was also raised with the (perhaps crazy) idea that people who pay people to do typical household jobs, have an attitude of feeling too good to do it themselves (I'm not saying that is true, it's just the idea that was hammered into me).

Hey, my housekeeper has to make a living too. If I don't pay her, that's less income she gets. I also have a dog walker. I hire people to do work on my house as well. My wife and I used to do everything ourselves, but at a certain point our time became more valuable to us than our money. If we can spend money to save time, then we do so. I suppose some of this is my upbringing as well. My family has had housekeepers since I was very young. This year my parents are even hiring waitstaff for the annual Thanksgiving party because they're tired of serving the drinks and food themselves.

I see no problems with this. My family works hard at what they do and the people they hire do the work voluntarily, they're not indentured servants.

I'm the first one in my family who went to university and was probably raised with prejudices and misconceptions (maybe inspired by jealousy) towards people who are financially well off.

...

That's why I think all in a high paying job should clean toilets every week; firstly because money and status have a tendency to change people in an ugly way and secondly to make sure that people who stand higher in the social ranking don't get too disconnected with those who are struggling to make a living every day.

Do you think I am disconnected?

[caravel]

Hey, my housekeeper has to make a living too. If I don't pay her, that's less income she gets.

That reminds me of the old "if we didn't buy the cheap products made by child sweatshop workers in the far east, they'd be out of a job..." rationale...

Ok it's not quite the same, and I'm not knocking you for having a housekeeper, but well... I suppose what I'm getting at is that I don't think you should need to justify it...

At this stage Andres should just start posting funny pictures and hope for the best...

[TinCow]

That reminds me of the old "if we didn't buy the cheap products made by child sweatshop workers in the far east, they'd be out of a job..." rationale...

That would apply if the wage I was paying her was low. I pay her about $33-50/hour depending how long it takes her and I give her a bonus every year at Christmas. I even increased her pay a few weeks ago without her ever asking for it because she's done such a good job for so long. I've had jobs that paid me far less than that at various points in my life.

Ok it's not quite the same, and I'm not knocking you for having a housekeeper, but well... I suppose what I'm getting at is that I don't think you should need to justify it...

And yet here this thread is. Perhaps it should be a Backroom thread instead of a Frontroom thread, but the sentiments expressed here are not new to me, nor are they surprising. There are biases that equate wealth with laziness and prejudice, when in many cases that is exactly the opposite. Many wealthy people started out from very humble backgrounds, and they worked very hard to earn that wealth. Most of those people remember where they came from and try and live good lives and give back to society.

I do believe that part of this is due to a US-Euro divide. Having experiencing it from both sides, I will say that Europeans have far more of a negative outlook on wealth than Americans. Europe has an association of wealth with an immovable, uncaring aristocracy. That does not exist in the US. Ask people in Europe what class they fall into, and they will answer lower, middle, or upper. Ask people in the US what class they fall into, and they will answer lower-middle, middle, or upper-middle. There is a perception here that everyone is equal regardless of their financial successes. While those perceptions have been strained here in recent years due to the recession, it remains the common sentiment.

[Andres]

As I said, I'm not judging anyone, it's just something that sits in me. Perhaps I should just go to my room and whip myself until I no longer have these silly ideas. If I look hard enough, I can probably find someone I can pay to whip me.

I hire people to do work on my house as well. My wife and I used to do everything ourselves, but at a certain point our time became more valuable to us than our money.

Funny how in the end, we both come to the same conclusion. Both my wife and I have concluded that combining full time jobs with family life and doing everything ourselves is sheer idiocy. But instead of hiring people to clean, we'll probably decide to go work less (after all, cleaning only takes an hour or so (most likely because we both hate cleaning and are easily satisfied; hygiene is overrated).

By my own logic, ideas and viewpoints, we're lazy

Do you think I am disconnected?

When was the last time you cleaned a toilet?


After re-reading my previous posts, I do sound a bit like some grumpy old dude rambling about lazy youngsters no longer cleaning their own houses and mowing their own lawns...

[TinCow]

When was the last time you cleaned a toilet?

I tidy it up whenever I cause a particular mess, but the last time I cleaned and scrubbed it was nearly four years ago, since that's how long I've had a housekeeper. Is that your only standard of judgment? Do you care about how much ironing I do? How much cooking and dish washing? Gardening? Picking up dog poop? Fixing problems on the Org?

[Andres]

And yet here this thread is. Perhaps it should be a Backroom thread instead of a Frontroom thread, but the sentiments expressed here are not new to me, nor are they surprising. There are biases that equate wealth with laziness and prejudice, when in many cases that is exactly the opposite. Many wealthy people started out from very humble backgrounds, and they worked very hard to earn that wealth. Most of those people remember where they came from and try and live good lives and give back to society.

I do believe that part of this is due to a US-Euro divide. Having experiencing it from both sides, I will say that Europeans have far more of a negative outlook on wealth than Americans. Europe has an association of wealth with an immovable, uncaring aristocracy. That does not exist in the US. Ask people in Europe what class they fall into, and they will answer lower, middle, or upper. Ask people in the US what class they fall into, and they will answer lower-middle, middle, or upper-middle. There is a perception here that everyone is equal regardless of their financial successes. While those perceptions have been strained here in recent years due to the recession, it remains the common sentiment.

Well, as I said, it are more ideas that have been hammered into me. I was more or less taught to look at people having a cleaning lady or having somebody to do the laundry or whatever household job as lazy people or people with an attitude thinking they are too good to do it themselves. A doctors' wife cleaning her house herself was highly respected, because, well, she was the wife of the doctor and didn't feel too good to clean. It are prejudices, as you say. And they were part of me growing up.

The cleaning lady needs her job too. And who knows, perhaps she uses the money to pay for education and get a better paying job later on in life.

[TinCow]

A doctors' wife cleaning her house herself was highly respected, because, well, she was the wife of the doctor and didn't feel too good to clean. It are prejudices, as you say. And they were part of me growing up.

And what happens if the doctor's wife is also a doctor? My wife is a lawyer. She makes more money than I do, but should I expect her to do the scrubbing instead of me? I know many, many married couple and with the exception of one or two, in all of them both the husband and the wife work. For the few who don't, it's simply because the wife's paycheck was less than the cost of daycare, so it was more financially sensible for the wife to take care of the children. I consider it extremely important that my wife and I split all chores equally. We both get up at 6:00 am for work and we get home at about 6:30 to 7:00 pm. Should I be telling my wife to plunge () right into toilet scrubbing when we get home?

[Strike For The South]

I just live in my own filth

[Andres]

I tidy it up whenever I cause a particular mess, but the last time I cleaned and scrubbed it was nearly four years ago, since that's how long I've had a housekeeper. Is that your only standard of judgment? Do you care about how much ironing I do? How much cooking and dish washing? Gardening? Picking up dog poop? Fixing problems on the Org?

As I said, I'm not judging anyone and I do realise it may very well just be me being prejudiced and having weird ideas

I'll suppress my curiosity about how much kilograms dog poop you pick up a week and will start searching for someone willing to whip me until I see the error of my ways at 50€/hour.

[caravel]

Goood laaawwwwd.... I believe the thread was supposed to be "a bit of fun"...

(anyone remember that? legend has it that we used to have it at the .org back in the day...)

[Andres]

And what happens if the doctor's wife is also a doctor? My wife is a lawyer. She makes more money than I do, but should I expect her to do the scrubbing instead of me? I know many, many married couple and with the exception of one or two, in all of them both the husband and the wife work. For the few who don't, it's simply because the wife's paycheck was less than the cost of daycare, so it was more financially sensible for the wife to take care of the children. I consider it extremely important that my wife and I split all chores equally. We both get up at 6:00 am for work and we get home at about 6:30 to 7:00 pm. Should I be telling my wife to plunge () right into toilet scrubbing when we get home?

Are you guys that dirty that that toilet needs scrubbing every night? And if you're at work from 6 am 'til 7.00 pm, then who made the toilet dirty? Burglars? Who take a dump at your place every single day? In such a way that the toilet needs heavy scrubbing?

[TinCow]

I'll suppress my curiosity about how much kilograms dog poop you pick up a week

He's a small dog, so not so much on the weight value. I generally pick up poop at least once a day though. The dog walker is only to give the fuzzy guy some exercise while we're at work.