Is it OK to forswear family and friends for political beliefs?

[Kadagar_AV]

Seems to be a popular topic.

My grandfather lived in Nazi Austria, and built up a resistance force there. That meant he had to forswear a LOT of family and friends.

I am pretty sure not many would argue he did wrong, but yet I see members ridiculing the same thing, but from different perspectives. But let's face it, we have to start the debate with: There ARE political factors that calls for forswearing.

IF you have a grasp of the world that makes you think life is a divine thing (and what a beautiful thought that is!), then why would you NOT forswear someone arguing for mass-extinction?

Given the amount of focus this has had, I thought this might be an apt topic start.

[Vuk]

@Gelatinous Cube: What if they voted for Hitler, or worse, Obama?

[Kadagar_AV]

I start to regret doing Goodwin in OP... Can we keep the thread somewhat balanced?

[Vuk]

Well, I got unfriended for voting for Obama, which amuses me. Obama is a far, far, far-right Democrat. He's not an extreme candidate, and his party is not an extreme party.

Hitler, on the other hand, was clearly a threat to everyone's health long before he actually got into power. Interestingly, the tactics he used to get elected in terms of campaigning and making promises are pretty similar to a certain group of American idealogues...

Well, forgetting your blindness and hypocrisy , I think you missed the point that my post was a humorous and not horribly serious way to ask you if there were exceptions to what you said about not forswearing people because of who they voted for.

[Vuk]

Well, I got unfriended for voting for Obama, which amuses me. Obama is a far, far, far-right Democrat. He's not an extreme candidate, and his party is not an extreme party.

Hitler, on the other hand, was clearly a threat to everyone's health long before he actually got into power. Interestingly, the tactics he used to get elected in terms of campaigning and making promises are pretty similar to a certain group of American idealogues...

Like having thugs posted outside polling stations?
Like cheating, lying, and trying to make disagreeing with you a crime? That is actually Obama and the Demzis.

[Vuk]

The Black Panthers being 'observers', Obama supporters chasing Republican observers out with guns, etc, etc. Man, you live in a bubble.

[Kadagar_AV]

Vuk, may I say that I object to your:

Everything you need to know about Kadagar_AV:
Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV
In a racial conflict I'd have no problem popping off some negroes.

The quote is indeed true, but VERY much taken out of context. Specially by the way you highlight it.

If I remember correctly, what followed before that was: In a war between aliens and humans I would go berserk on the aliens... or something along those lines... Then that quote followed... ... then the rest followed.

The discussion at hand was at what level you would fight. And YES, if there was an ALL OUT GLOBAL RACIAL CONFLICT... I wouldn't mind popping off some Negroes. I do however deem the chance of that ever happening to next to nil. Remember that this was the next link in the chain from alien invasions. Why would anyone NOT defend their race in an all out global conflict?

You make it sound like I in a bar fight would jump in on the white guys side. Or even worse, shoot the black guy for joy.

It frankly disgusts me that you use the quote like that.

You are of course entitled to, it is an actual quote of mine and I stand by it still. Most people on these boards, I sincerely hope, know that it is taken wildly out of context though. But remember that we do have new members, and stuff like that might alienate them from visiting these boards, and this sub forum in particular.

[Vuk]

Please back that hogwash up with sources that don't come from Fox News or the conservative blogosphere.

But more to the point, if you think black people being observers automatically makes them 'thugs' then you have your own issues. The Black Panthers stopped being a violent group decades ago.

So you will except a source from anyone except those who actually care enough and are honest enough to tell you? Well, in that case...


It is not that they are black. There are plenty of black vote observers on the Republican and Democratic side. It is that they are a fanatical, militant, wanna-be terrorist group.


Yes, I can see why you say they are so peaceful! Inciting genocide is usually considered peaceful.

[Vuk]

[Vuk]

LOL did you just try to say Fox News is more credible than other news sources?

No, I didn't, but it is better than most.

[Kadagar_AV]

No, I didn't, but it is better than most.

Actually, keep my quote... The fact that you oppose me seem rather brilliant at the moment.

[HoreTore]

There is a difference here based on political factors.

What's described in the OP is of course nothing anyone(sane) sees as wrong. Goes for most opposition to dictatorships. The kind described by Lemur in the Obama thread, however, is clearly on the whacky side of the spectrum. That's a clear sign of fanaticism and cult-mentality.

[Fragony]

Might surprise you but most of my friends are lefties and import, we don't discuss politics all that much and yes that includes muslims before you ask. We just have fun, they know I disagree with them that's enough.

[Lemur]

@Vuk, as per usual, is a cascading fountain of sparkling disinformation. The video of scary black people he posts is from 2008. When Fox tried a repeat this year, all they could find was a single scary black man who was ... opening doors for old people. EVIL NEGRO INTIMIDATION!

As for the OP, I'd say it's a thing not to be done lightly, and dependent on judgment. If my close friends and/or family were supporting a cause or politico who was a clear and present danger, sure, I'd lay into them. But (a) even the most horrifying monsters of history usually had some sort of excuse or rationale to give a figleaf of justification to their crimes. The Khmer Rouge, Mao, Hitler, Vlad Tepes, take any one of them. All had their rationales. All had well-meaning people who helped them. If we refuse to engage, how do we persuade, and possibly peel away supporters?

(b) I'm not clear on how cutting someone completely out of your life is a convincing argument. My uncle, for example, is a Fox News Republican. He lectures me about how Wisconsin is a "socialist state," how liberals hate America, and when he's had enough gin he'll go off about how America should be split in two so "conservatives won't have to live with people who aren't real Americans."

Not clear how cutting him off would be helpful. I'd much rather be in his presence, calm and reasonable, and let the rest of my family observe the difference between us.

Anyway, what the current crazyfest reveals is that a measurable fraction of the right in America has convinced themselves that Obama is the Antichrist. The dangers of this sort of self-delusion should be evident. Just look at Vuk.

Meanwhile, some on the right continue to engage in a full-throated mental meltdown, such as this. (Warning: Profanity and hilarity.)

[The Lurker Below]

Sounds like this friends and family don't simply have the beliefs, they are being obnoxious with sharing them? It'd be reasonable to inform them you'd rather not hear that talk anymore. If they continue then certainly, ignoring them would be justified. But simply to have happenstance knowledge of their beliefs and completely forswear them on this basis would be shallow behavior itself. Quite a few acquaintences, some friends, and a few family frequently talk racist trash. It's easily enough ignored. But I have yet to see any of them demonstrate discriminatory behavior. That would be a different thing altogether. Belief does not equal behavior. Don't let their beliefs alter your behavior.

[Vuk]

Vuk, may I say that I object to your:

Everything you need to know about Kadagar_AV:
Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV
In a racial conflict I'd have no problem popping off some negroes.

The quote is indeed true, but VERY much taken out of context. Specially by the way you highlight it.

If I remember correctly, what followed before that was: In a war between aliens and humans I would go berserk on the aliens... or something along those lines... Then that quote followed... ... then the rest followed.

The discussion at hand was at what level you would fight. And YES, if there was an ALL OUT GLOBAL RACIAL CONFLICT... I wouldn't mind popping off some Negroes. I do however deem the chance of that ever happening to next to nil. Remember that this was the next link in the chain from alien invasions. Why would anyone NOT defend their race in an all out global conflict?

You make it sound like I in a bar fight would jump in on the white guys side. Or even worse, shoot the black guy for joy.

It frankly disgusts me that you use the quote like that.

You are of course entitled to, it is an actual quote of mine and I stand by it still. Most people on these boards, I sincerely hope, know that it is taken wildly out of context though. But remember that we do have new members, and stuff like that might alienate them from visiting these boards, and this sub forum in particular.

You object to me showing it, yet you stand by it? Tell me more about how not-crazy you are.
Sorry Kadagar, but it is not taken out of context. Something like that, in any context except a joke (which you admit it was not) is racist and crazy. True, it could be more so in one context than another, but the fact that you would say something like that not as a joke says enough already.

@Vuk, as per usual, is a cascading fountain of sparkling disinformation. The video of scary black people he posts is from 2008. When Fox tried a repeat this year, all they could find was a single scary black man who was ... opening doors for old people. EVIL NEGRO INTIMIDATION!

As for the OP, I'd say it's a thing not to be done lightly, and dependent on judgment. If my close friends and/or family were supporting a cause or politico who was a clear and present danger, sure, I'd lay into them. But (a) even the most horrifying monsters of history usually had some sort of excuse or rationale to give a figleaf of justification to their crimes. The Khmer Rouge, Mao, Hitler, Vlad Tepes, take any one of them. All had their rationales. All had well-meaning people who helped them. If we refuse to engage, how do we persuade, and possibly peel away supporters?

(b) I'm not clear on how cutting someone completely out of your life is a convincing argument. My uncle, for example, is a Fox News Republican. He lectures me about how Wisconsin is a "socialist state," how liberals hate America, and when he's had enough gin he'll go off about how America should be split in two so "conservatives won't have to live with people who aren't real Americans."

Not clear how cutting him off would be helpful. I'd much rather be in his presence, calm and reasonable, and let the rest of my family observe the difference between us.

Anyway, what the current crazyfest reveals is that a measurable fraction of the right in America has convinced themselves that Obama is the Antichrist. The dangers of this sort of self-delusion should be evident. Just look at Vuk.

Meanwhile, some on the right continue to engage in a full-throated mental meltdown, such as this. (Warning: Profanity and hilarity.)

Scary black people? Evil negro? Damn, I love how the left likes to play the races card. You cannot object to the left threatening people without hating blacks. I don't give a rat's ass if it is a white loony like Bill Ayers or a black loony like that guy. What I care about is the intimidation and threats, so drop your whiny race baiting.
Second of all, only one of the vids is from 2008, and the other from 2012. It doesn't matter when the videos were shot though, because I posted them to demonstrate that they ARE a violent organization when a poster was saying that they were not. Everyone knows that. Just seeing them out there in combat dress is gonna intimidate people.

You are forgetting something else, those dictators are only seen as evil monsters in hindsight. They usually are seen as 'the light and the way' (sound familiar) when they get power, and anyone who opposes them is considered radical, dangerous, and crazy (sound familiar).

Also, I never advocated cutting off contact with Obama supporters. I asked a poster a theoretical question because I doubted her thought out his statement fully, and made a humorous jab at Obama comparing him to Hitler.
I have friends and family members who vote for Obama. I think their action will destroy the country, but I don't hate them or cut off contact with them because I don't think they have bad intentions. If they start reporting me to Obama's real committee of disinformation or still support him if he starts sending people to re-education camps (and it wouldn't surprise me if he did), then yeah, I'd break off contact with them.

[Lemur]

You know, Vuk, if you're going to do the classic "I'm going to make a bunch of racial references and then scream 'race card' the moment anyone calls me on it"? You need to do it more artfully. It's a legitimate bit of doublethink, but it needs more finesse than you're bringing to the party.

Like having thugs posted outside polling stations?

The Black Panthers being 'observers', Obama supporters chasing Republican observers out with guns, etc, etc.

It is not that they are black. [...] It is that they are a fanatical, militant, wanna-be terrorist group.

Damn, I love how the left likes to play the races card.

[Kadagar_AV]

Vuk, in case of an all out age conflict I wouldn't mind popping off some babies.

Now, do you think that means I consider the scenario likely, and do you think I promote or believe in the killing of infants?

[Vuk]

You know, Vuk, if you're going to do the classic "I'm going to make a bunch of racial references and then scream 'race card' the moment anyone calls me on it"? You need to do it more artfully. It's a legitimate bit of doublethink, but it needs more finesse than you're bringing to the party.

So what are you saying Lemur, that 'thug' means black? I think that says a lot about you.
And what, because I point out that a liberal group was using voter intimidation and they happen to be black, I am suddenly being racist? So make up your mind! Are black people off limit to criticism based on their actions, or all they all thugs?! You seem a bit confused there Lemur. (and equally paranoid)

EDIT: I think you watch too much Chris Matthews Lemmys. Neither Thug nor Foodstamps are racial references, and if you think so, then it says a lot more about your racist attitudes than about anyone else.

[Lemur]

Like I said, you need more finesse to pull the maneuver you are attempting. As you continue to demonstrate.

[Vuk]

Like I said, you need more finesse to pull the maneuver you are attempting. As you continue to demonstrate.

Maneuver? Ah, my little dishonest friend cannot help but to think in terms of rhetoric, lying, and persuasion.

It may be hard for you to understand Lemmy, being the type of 'man' that you are, but I am a lot less complex person than that. I just say the truth when I see, as I see it. No con-games and rhetorical maneuvers. I leave such slight-of-tongue up to you and your liberal colleagues. I rely on the truth, not rhetoric.

[Lemur]

Well, if you are unable to recognize your own rhetorical maneuver as such, then it's no surprise you are so ineffective at deploying it.

Hint: When repeating things you heard on Fox News or talk radio, you are, in fact, regurgitating specific talking points and rhetoric.

Also, when putting my manhood in quotes, please use double, not single quotes. You wouldn't want people to think you are a God-hating Socialist European.

[Vuk]

Well, if you are unable to recognize your own rhetorical maneuver as such, then it's no surprise you are so ineffective at deploying it.

Hint: When repeating things you heard on Fox News or talk radio, you are, in fact, regurgitating specific talking points and rhetoric.
Also, when putting my manhood in quotes, please use double, not single quotes. You wouldn't want people to think you are a God-hating Socialist European.

That would be a good trick considering I don't have a TV that gets any reception and don't listen to the radio! I get all my information online, and most of it from Yahoo News which is extremely Left leaning.
Trust me dude, I don't want to go anywhere near your 'manhood'.

[Lemur]

Wow, you really present yourself as someone unable to absorb the simplest fact. Single versus double quotes. You're using the European version, commie.

Why do you hate American grammar and punctuation?

[Viking]

I can't speak for the rest of Europe, but in Norway, we use «these quotes». Trying to put the blame on us for single quotes must be a dirty trick.

By the way, is it OK to forswear grammar and punctuation for political beliefs?

[Lemur]

By the way, is it OK to forswear grammar and punctuation for political beliefs?

Never. NEVER.

[Gregoshi]

By the way, is it OK to forswear grammar and punctuation for political beliefs?

No. Even the Nazi's were punctual (see "Hitler and trains").

[Vuk]

Wow, you really present yourself as someone unable to absorb the simplest fact. Single versus double quotes. You're using the European version, commie.

Why do you hate American grammar and punctuation?

Spank me daddy.

[Lemur]

Hell no. As I have told Mrs. Lemur, good girls get spanked; bad girls get ignored.

Revise text as necessary to apply to this situation—not suggesting you are anything but a hot-blooded American male with ripped abs and glistening pecs.

[Kadagar_AV]

No. Even the Nazi's were punctual (see "Hitler and trains").

Damn... There were this brilliant comedy clip with a German (read: Nazi) being unable to cope with the bus being late in England... But now I can't find it :(