Step to Statehood or Oblivion

[HopAlongBunny]

Palestine has UN status upgraded.

One may argue that the upgrade could give the Palestinian Authority more levers (peaceful) to make the push to statehood successful. Given the structure of the UN though, it may just heighten everyones frustration with the entire process.

So, are we on the path of peace and plenty for all, or are we weaving a dangerous course which will only lead to violence and disillusion?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20550864

[Jolt]

Palestine has UN status upgraded.

First thing that comes to my mind:

[Greyblades]

Oh good, this should prolong the struggle another good few months.

[Beirut]

It's a beautiful thing.

[Major Robert Dump]

Does this mean they will get a Bureau of Tourism now?

[HopAlongBunny]

I think its about time Palestine was recognized; although my gov't apparently disagrees.

While the measure certainly makes the quiet elimination of Palestine more difficult, is it enough to halt the process?

I get no inkling that there is any "will to peace" from the US or Israel.

[Papewaio]

If superpowers at the height of a Cold War could recognise each other and use the UN for dialogue to prevent nuclear war then I cannot see how this is not a good thing.

Giving a voice to a both sides changes this from a monologue to a dialog. The monologue has gone on long enough and it is clear that it hasn't resolved anything. So let them talk, let the world listen and let's see if a peaceful position can be found.

[Idaho]

Israel doesn't want to integrate the Palestinians into a Greater Israel, nor does it want them to have their own state. This only leaves one other strategic goal they can have - to have a Greater Israel without any Palestinians in it. The behaviour and policy so far would also be consistent with this.

[Vladimir]

So how is this going to affect the rockets targeted at Jerusalem? Will there be more or will they just have more modern guidance systems?

[rory_20_uk]

I always thing Idaho's diagram says it all: Israel is playing the long game. Taking just a bit more per year but the direction is pretty constant.

[Hax]

So how is this going to affect the rockets targeted at Jerusalem? Will there be more or will they just have more modern guidance systems?

That kinda conflates Palestine in its totality with just Gaza. When were rockets fired from the West Bank again?

[Montmorency]

Looking a bit more closely than I had in the past at the map progression, I notice that the Palestinians now 'possess' land they did not 60 years ago, around both the West Bank and Gaza.

Am I merely geometrically confused, or is there a story behind that? Land the Israelis would rather have the Palestinians on? An error on the map creator's part?

[Idaho]

All hail Greater Israel! A mere 3,000 homes to be built on Palestinian land and those crazy a-rabs refuse to participate in the peace process. I'm starting to wonder if they actually want peace with Israel. Let's all focus on obscure points in the Hamas political charter - those are the most essential topics we face.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20552391

[rvg]

That kinda conflates Palestine in its totality with just Gaza. When were rockets fired from the West Bank again?

Well, in all honesty the Hamas in Gaza are the only ones that have the balls to act like a real government and actually achieve some results. The Ramallah government is more of a provincial administration with not much political leverage. Seriously, if I were a Palestinian I'd support Hamas and dismiss Fatah as a joke faction that is incapable of achieving any tangible results.

[Idaho]

Well, in all honesty the Hamas in Gaza are the only ones that have the balls to act like a real government and actually achieve some results. The Ramallah government is more of a provincial administration with not much political leverage. Seriously, if I were a Palestinian I'd support Hamas and dismiss Fatah as a joke faction that is incapable of achieving any tangible results.

The West Bank is less viable as it has been carved up. You can't travel across it (if you are Palestinian) without lining up at several checkpoints (and the stories about soldiers abusing people at those are grim and depressing). Gaza - while poorer and generally crappier in terms of land and aspect, at least has some freedom of movement within it.

[Beskar]

The West Bank is less viable as it has been carved up. You can't travel across it (if you are Palestinian) without lining up at several checkpoints (and the stories about soldiers abusing people at those are grim and depressing). Gaza - while poorer and generally crappier in terms of land and aspect, at least has some freedom of movement within it.

When I was in the West Bank, the Israeli's all had to leave the coach before crossing over into the Palestinian territories and whilst travelling, the only check points we came across were ran by Palestinian soldiers, all wielding SMG's whilst in little huts off the side of the road with the Palestinian flag flying high upon them. Only Israeli checkpoints I saw were at the border crossings into Israel proper and they didn't seem to really bother with the coach.

[gaelic cowboy]

I always thing Idaho's diagram says it all: Israel is playing the long game. Taking just a bit more per year but the direction is pretty constant.

Plus I'm pretty sure you will find that Israel essentially closed it's eyes to Hamas early on in order to weaken the PLO.

[Idaho]

When I was in the West Bank, the Israeli's all had to leave the coach before crossing over into the Palestinian territories and whilst travelling, the only check points we came across were ran by Palestinian soldiers, all wielding SMG's whilst in little huts off the side of the road with the Palestinian flag flying high upon them. Only Israeli checkpoints I saw were at the border crossings into Israel proper and they didn't seem to really bother with the coach.

Were you on the Jews only roads?

[Fragony]

Israel doesn't want to integrate the Palestinians into a Greater Israel, nor does it want them to have their own state. This only leaves one other strategic goal they can have - to have a Greater Israel without any Palestinians in it. The behaviour and policy so far would also be consistent with this.

Weirdest ethnic cleansing ever than as the Palestinian population is now 4 times as big as it was 50 years ago. At least.

[HoreTore]

Weirdest ethnic cleansing ever than as the Palestinian population is now 4 times as big as it was 50 years ago. At least.

I'm puzzled. Is this statement caused by:

1. Frags pulling numbers out of his behind yet again?
2. Frags have read some "quality media who tells the truth", who pull numbers out of their behinds, and presented their lies as facts?

The populstion of the british mandate of palestine in 1945 was 1.7 million. The population in the west bank is about 2 millin, while it's a little over 1.5 mill in gaza, giving 3.5-ish million.

You've got to show me how you managed to calculate 1.7 x 4 = 3.5!

[Fragony]

I'm puzzled. Is this statement caused by:

1. Frags pulling numbers out of his behind yet again?
2. Frags have read some "quality media who tells the truth", who pull numbers out of their behinds, and presented their lies as facts?

The populstion of the british mandate of palestine in 1945 was 1.7 million. The population in the west bank is about 2 millin, while it's a little over 1.5 mill in gaza, giving 3.5-ish million.

You've got to show me how you managed to calculate 1.7 x 4 = 3.5!

The Palestines are among highest breeders of the world it isn't uncommon that a family has over 10 children.

Söhne und Weltmacht, Gunnar Heinsohn 2003

[HoreTore]

The Palestines are among highest breeders of the world it isn't uncommon that a family has over 10 children.

Söhne und Weltmacht, Gunnar Heinsohn 2003

So, that's how you got numbers who are completely wrong?

When even the books you read are insane and wrong, perhaps you should reconsider the way you obtain information...?

[Fragony]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demogra...an_territories

Weirdest genocide ever

[Hax]

Might have something to do with nationality. It could be that until 1967, Palestinians in the West Bank were regarded as Jordanians. Dunno.

[Fragony]

Might have something to do with nationality. It could be that until 1967, Palestinians in the West Bank were regarded as Jordanians. Dunno.

There is a sharp rise during the Libanon war, so that's possibe. But overall it looks pretty consistant

[HoreTore]

Who are you arguing against, frags? Who has claimed the palestinian population is declining? The post you replied to was about land, not people.

[Husar]

Probably because they're not allowed to have jobs so they have nothing better to do than make children.

Edit: So you admit your numbers were wrong, HoreTore?

[Fragony]

Who are you arguing against, frags? Who has claimed the palestinian population is declining? The post you replied to was about land, not people.

Israel doesn't want to integrate the Palestinians into a Greater Israel, nor does it want them to have their own state. This only leaves one other strategic goal they can have - to have a Greater Israel without any Palestinians in it. The behaviour and policy so far would also be consistent with this.

Not so consistant. The ethnic cleansing that is hinted at has this unique quality of populations decreasing, in great contrast with populations growing. Also the Palestinians who live in Israel are thriving, weirdest ethnic cleansing ever.

[Fragony]

Probably because they're not allowed to have jobs so they have nothing better to do than make children.

Edit: So you admit your numbers were wrong, HoreTore?

That is also what Heinson argues, if you don't get a lot of kids they are less likely to be sacrificed in a needless spiral of violence. They can get so many kids because they are at the tit of just about everything aid-industry. It cannot be sustained. All aid but food should be stopped at once and and carefully rationed so this unnatural situation ceases to exist.

[Idaho]

Israel doesn't want to integrate the Palestinians into a Greater Israel, nor does it want them to have their own state. This only leaves one other strategic goal they can have - to have a Greater Israel without any Palestinians in it. The behaviour and policy so far would also be consistent with this.

Not so consistant. The ethnic cleansing that is hinted at has this unique quality of populations decreasing, in great contrast with populations growing. Also the Palestinians who live in Israel are thriving, weirdest ethnic cleansing ever.

Thriving? Very much second class citizens alas.