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  1. #1
    Humanist Senior Member Franconicus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Could the Axis have won?

    But the fundamental stupidity of Nazism discouraged even the most anti-Semitic of them (not all of them).
    Brenus, I agree that it was stupid. However, if you look at it with the insane mind of Hitler, there was no alternative. First reason was that Hitler believed that Germany lost the war because of the uprise of the people caused by hunger. He realy thought that the unbeatable German army would have won, if the people at home would have go on supporting the war. So he believed that having enough food was one of the most important preconditions to win the war. Therefore, it was most important for him to get a lot of food from Ukraine, accepting the death of millions there.
    Second reason was that he obviously did not attack the SU to free Ukraine. He wanted the land for Germany, or better said for Germans. The population there had to disappear, with only few working slaves. So he used the opportunity of the war to get as many of the Ukrainians killed as possible.
    So you are right, the Germans could have done much better, but it was not a realistic option for Hitler.

    The sanctions against Japan were the proximate cause of war with both Japan and Germany.
    Kralizec, I agree that the sanctions should force Japan into war, as they did. But it was something else with Germany. Roosevelt did a lot of things to help GB and to provoke Germany: the lend & lease, the cash & carry, giving the Brits American destroyers, guiding convoys to the middle of the Atlantic, having long range air patrols over the Atlantic, occupying Island and Greenland and even attacking German submarines. Although the Germans were aware of all of this, they did not declare war. And Roosevelt could not. Why did the Germans declare war after Pearl Harbor. This does not make any sense to me.
    The alliance between Japan and Germany had only one reason for Germany: Hitler believed, that the US would hesitate to step into the war against Germany, if they have to fear the war in the Pacific. Japan also hoped that the alliance with Germany would keep the USA out of the war. That is all. There was never a plan of a coordinated war. Japan did not attack Russia to help the Germans and Hitler did not even ask for it. Hitler was not informed about the plan to attack the US navy and there was no coordination with German subs or the Africa Corps. So the allaince was no reason for Hitler to declare war against the USA.
    In my eyes, Pearl Harbor was the last chance for Hitler to avoid desaster. It was clear that the Us and Britain would declare war against Japan and that the Americans would urge their government to strike back as soon and as hard as possible. Would FDR have been able to declare war against Germany? I do not know.

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    Senior Member Senior Member ReluctantSamurai's Avatar
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    Default Re: Could the Axis have won?

    Hitler did not even ask for it.
    Actually, he did...several times.

    So you are right, the Germans could have done much better, but it was not a realistic option for Hitler.
    Of course, in reality, we all know utilizing human resources from the Ukraine was not an option considered by Hitler. But we are talking what if's here, and all of this discussion is just whimsical musings

    The alliance between Japan and Germany had only one reason for Germany: Hitler believed, that the US would hesitate to step into the war against Germany, if they have to fear the war in the Pacific. Japan also hoped that the alliance with Germany would keep the USA out of the war.
    This is also an accurate view. But in musing whether the Axis coalition could have done better, one area that could have made a large difference, IMO, is better co-operation between Japan and Germany...starting with better communications. The German pact with the SU in 1939 was both a surprise and a bitter pill for Japan to swallow. When Germany attacked in June of 1941, this was also a complete surprise to Japan and did nothing to further relations between the two powers. Japan's non-aggression pact with the SU was the flip-side of dampening relations with Germany.

    Germany would have had to give Japan something substantial in return for a commitment for Japan to attack the Soviets in the Far East. My view on what that was has already been stated.

    Would FDR have been able to declare war against Germany?
    The Germans were always considered to be the larger threat, but America was not very prepared as of yet to go to war, and so was content, for the moment to supply money and materials to GB. Pearl Harbor changed all that.......
    High Plains Drifter

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    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Could the Axis have won?

    Given the sum of their actions and policies, I am exceedingly glad the Axis were beaten. When Mussolini's Italy was the "progressive" choice, the list of choices more or less sucked. As it was, we allied with Soviet Russia -- FDR luke-warm at best, WC holding his nose -- to defeat them.

    That said, there were any number of points that the Axis mis-played that could have generated a victory -- provided that victory was realized no later than January of 1943.

    1. Germany could have opted out of any surface unit larger than a DD and turned the steel/yard space and the like over to U-boats. They began the war with 57 U-boats and never had more than 40 at sea prior to 1942, with the U-boat fleet not breaking the 100-at-sea mark (the Mark Raeder himself said would be required for six months to stangle England's economy) until July of 1942! The pocket battleship program, the excellent battlecruisers, even the battleships -- no matter how threatening -- were simply misplaced resources. Source: http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-boatPolicy.htm

    2. Germany could have realized exactly what it had with its panzerkorps. Throughout the first half of the war, German high commanders slowed down the armored spear-heads for fear of them being cut off and defeated in detail -- despite the fact that it was the shock they were generating that protected them best. Runstedt slowed the advance near Dunkirk, allowing the withdrawal of thousands of troops who could have been netted. Again, in 1941, Hitler halted Guderian and the other spear head commanders of Army Group center and turned them South to secure the Ukraine, halting the advance on Moscow for over a month. Had they struck forward, Moscow would have fallen and taken a huge chunk of the Soviet infrastructure with it. Stalin may well have been forced to sue for peace on unfavorable terms. Source: Stolfi's Hitler's Panzers East: World War II Reinterpreted

    3. Hitler failed to bring Franco into the war. The loss of Gibraltar would have crippled British offensive efforts in the Mediterranean, allowing Axis forces to concentrate in defense of a Frontal assault in the West as well as, potentially, pushing Turkey into the Axis camp and opening up the Caucasus from both sides.

    4. Hitler could have had someone slip a blood-pressure increaser into one of FDR's martinis in 1940. President Garner would not have authored Lend Lease, would not have given destroyers to GB, and would certainly not have actively aided the RN in the North Atlantic without benefit of Congressional approval. In short, no FDR and England would largely have been stuck soloing against Germany while an isolationist USA either focused solely on Japan or even stayed home depending on Japanese actions. Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Nance_Garner

    5. Japan could have struck, in 1941, against Dutch possessions in the Pacific as a follow on to their efforts against French possessions. Though strategically they felt that they had to secure the Phillipines to do this (which required them to throw the "brush back" pitch against the USN at Pearl), it is possible that politically, they would have been in a position to force the USA to declare war against Japan to protect the Dutch (hated by the locals and not having received a lot of good press in the USA). The USA, particularly if #4 above occurred, would have been hard-pressed to get the votes for war from a largely isolationist public, especially Dutch "press" for the treatement of their Indonesian subjects wasn't exactly pristine. Absent the USA or a direct attack on Singapore, they might have forced the British to accept a fait accompli without war and thereby netted the oil etc. required for continued expansion in China.

    Lots of other tactical things might be added, but these are some that might have made a strategic difference.
    Last edited by Seamus Fermanagh; 12-30-2012 at 03:23.
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