LA BELLE EPOQUE (a sequel to the CONCERT OF EUROPE)

[Franconicus]

Here is what I found so far:

Naval warfare:

Is based on the triremes, a ship type well-known for all parties.

The triremes is fast and high maneuverable. However, it is not built to withstand storms and its capacity to carry troops or goods is limited.

Standard crews consist 200 men, including 170 rowers and between 18 marines. Vessels can also carry horses. The more it carries, the slower the ship gets and the more likely it is to sink.

Ships from Athens usually carry 14 hoplites and 4 archers. Persians usually have 40 marines.
Admirals from Athens try to out-maneuver their enemies and sink them by ramming while ships from other regions – Persia or Sparta – prefer to fight with the infantry.

Triremes can also be used as transports, and then they have only 60 rowers. Then they are able to transport up to 100 soldiers.

So a fleet of 200 triremes with 40 soldiers on board of each ship can transport 8,000 soldiers.

The triremes carry food and water for one day. Then they have to stop and get new supply. They also have to look for shelter if there is a storm coming. If a triremes stays in the water for several day, it becomes slow. So it is reasonable to carry them on the beach each night.

For these reasons, campaigns on sea depend strongly on bases, where the ships can find shelter and supply.

Question:
What is the average distance, a fleet of triremes can travel at one day?


Warfare on land:

Greeks rely mainly on hoplites combined with psiloi, some light troops (slingers, archers or peltasts). These troops can be professionals, militias or mercenaries. Besides the Spartan army, there were only little professionals. Cavalry does not play any role.

Persia had an army composed of soldiers from different nations. Infantry was lighter, although there were some similar to the hoplites, just with shorter lances. Then a lot of light soldiers with javelins, archers etc. Plus cavalry, maybe the strongest part of Persian army.


possible Factions:

Maybe
Ionia
Aeolia
Hellespont
Cyprus
Caria

And Persia

Persia coul be divided into three parts.

Of course this would be too many factions!!

[Arjos]

Average speed, taken from Xenophon, is about 8 knots over a 236 km distance. Taking "a long day's voyage", that is 16 to 18 hours, counting a midday meal.
Thoukydides records also a non-stop 340 km voyage, in little over a day. But this would tire the men incredibly and they wouldn't be battle-ready.

Also the Peltastai for the Greeks is a bit too early. They were adopted as a consequence of the Persian Wars and the athenian expansion (especially in Thrake and Anatolia). Still I see no problem with very light, but in no way professional, javelin throwers for the 5th century BCE in Hellas.

[Greyblades]

Wow... I had no idea how much Triremes suck compared to ships of the age of sail. I wonder if we can reform what our armies are equipped and train with.

[The Stranger]

im sparta. XD

[Franconicus]

Wow... I had no idea how much Triremes suck compared to ships of the age of sail. I wonder if we can reform what our armies are equipped and train with.

You mean iron armor and steam drive?


Factions - leaders:

Aristagoras - Milet

Cyprus - Onesilus

Caria - Pixodorus



Persian strategist - Daurises

Persian strategist - Hymaees

Persian strategist - Otanes



Please chose your side. Anybody is welcome, but keep in mind that I want it fast and tough!!


Any info about army sizes?

[The Stranger]

im confused on what is going to happen now :S 1 team vs 1 team or is this a ffa?

[Franconicus]

There are some Persian factions and some greek. But it will be war, so propably the factions will fight on two sides. I would like to give each factions individual goals, though.

This game shall be more military focused.

[The Stranger]

so is there anything that distinguishes the factions? apart from the generic differences between greek and persian.

[Franconicus]

no, all are part of the Persian Empire!

No, Milet will get into trouble the the Empire, soon. It has little choice but to start the riot.

[Arjos]

Any info about army sizes?

Herodotos wasn't very precise for land battles, in this case (or ever :P), apart for mentioning few casualties here and there...
Karia is said to have lost 10.000 men (likely an exageration, counting all their fighting men) at Marsyas, but right after the battle, they were debating whether to flee Asia Minor or beg for mercy and join the Persians once again. So most likely that was their total force. Obviously not considering the "reserve" from enrolling the elders and maybe early teenagers, who later ambushed and killed Daurises.
As for warships, I don't think they had any really, Rhodos was in control there.
Miletos would've had 6 lochoi of 500 men, to keep in line with their fleet.
Onesilos probably mustered at Salamis 10.000 infantry, 2.500 psiloi and 200 punic chariots (these had a driver and archer, so really movable platforms, nothing more).

Miletos should've 80 triremes. While Persia (that is Phoenicians, Egyptians, Cilicians and Cypriots, who didn't rebel or subdued) numbered 600 in the campaign and Phoenicia should've covered half of it. Considering that Kypros had losses, but most were defections, its number is somewhere in there. Maybe 100-150, since soon as the Ionians showed up, they warned that all their ships should go and fight the Phoenicians.
The persian army had division units of 10.000 men, so maybe when Herodotos speaks of "two persian armies", "the third army", he could be simply speaking of the divisions. I tend to agree to this, considering that Artaphernes (the satrap of Sardis) would've been the commander for the operations and the various generals mentioned, would be leading each division. Otherwise a full army for each person would make several hundred of thousands of soldiers (not counting all the supporting men and women) for almost a decade in the Anatolia: unsustainable for the logistics and resources.
300.000 might've been the total number of men available in the Persian Empire, considering every single ethnicity and in its geographical totality...

So I'd say that 40.000-50.000 in Asia Minor is already an incredible number for the Persians. And the ships available in the eastern Mediterranean, able to transport about half of it.

am i the only one confused by this scenario or the story we are roleplaying?

Think so :P

Three greek poleis, living under the persian yoke, squabbles during a campaign about the chain of command and a tyrrant fearing for his status, stirred a rebellion in the whole region. But without cooperation, they are doomed.
And so the King of Kings sends three generals, to deal with these annoying rebels.

Will this escalade and involve more people, or will the deeds of these men be forgotten in the sands of time?
Really what's puzzling you? :)

[Greyblades]

Honestly it seems hopeless, the Persian invasion took nigh all the Greek states working together to repel, 3 cities on their own seem kinds screwed.

[Arjos]

Meh, that's just the playable and leading ones, there should be several other poleis in the mix...

BTW I'd like either Otanes or Pixodoros, whichever is left over :)

[Greyblades]

Still... way I see it the only way to succeed here is if the Persians aren't putting their all into this at the start and we have to juggle resisting enough to stay independent but don't screw them over so badly that we end up getting the Persians so peeved they sic their entire might on us, otherwise I can only see us winning by playing a guerrilla campaign.

[The Stranger]

Herodotos wasn't very precise for land battles, in this case (or ever :P), apart for mentioning few casualties here and there...
Karia is said to have lost 10.000 men (likely an exageration, counting all their fighting men) at Marsyas, but right after the battle, they were debating whether to flee Asia Minor or beg for mercy and join the Persians once again. So most likely that was their total force. Obviously not considering the "reserve" from enrolling the elders and maybe early teenagers, who later ambushed and killed Daurises.
As for warships, I don't think they had any really, Rhodos was in control there.
Miletos would've had 6 lochoi of 500 men, to keep in line with their fleet.
Onesilos probably mustered at Salamis 10.000 infantry, 2.500 psiloi and 200 punic chariots (these had a driver and archer, so really movable platforms, nothing more).

Miletos should've 80 triremes. While Persia (that is Phoenicians, Egyptians, Cilicians and Cypriots, who didn't rebel or subdued) numbered 600 in the campaign and Phoenicia should've covered half of it. Considering that Kypros had losses, but most were defections, its number is somewhere in there. Maybe 100-150, since soon as the Ionians showed up, they warned that all their ships should go and fight the Phoenicians.
The persian army had division units of 10.000 men, so maybe when Herodotos speaks of "two persian armies", "the third army", he could be simply speaking of the divisions. I tend to agree to this, considering that Artaphernes (the satrap of Sardis) would've been the commander for the operations and the various generals mentioned, would be leading each division. Otherwise a full army for each person would make several hundred of thousands of soldiers (not counting all the supporting men and women) for almost a decade in the Anatolia: unsustainable for the logistics and resources.
300.000 might've been the total number of men available in the Persian Empire, considering every single ethnicity and in its geographical totality...

So I'd say that 40.000-50.000 in Asia Minor is already an incredible number for the Persians. And the ships available in the eastern Mediterranean, able to transport about half of it.



Think so :P

Three greek poleis, living under the persian yoke, squabbles during a campaign about the chain of command and a tyrrant fearing for his status, stirred a rebellion in the whole region. But without cooperation, they are doomed.
And so the King of Kings sends three generals, to deal with these annoying rebels.

Will this escalade and involve more people, or will the deeds of these men be forgotten in the sands of time?
Really what's puzzling you? :)

meh maybe its just that it doesnt appeal to me as much so im trying to play dumb to get out of it XD