Newtown School Shootings

[rvg]

Australia also has 22 million people vs our 300+ mil.
It's pointless to draw parallels between the two countries.

[Montmorency]

It's not pointless, by any means. Though a sentiment like, "Here is Australia. Why can't Amerikkka be more like it?" isn't very useful, the questions for analysis it raises can lead to workable solutions. Just because Australia is a different country does not mean we can take nothing from its policies or circumstances. Differences invite circumspection and qualification, not disregard.

Certainly, though the military situations the US found itself in when invading Iraq and Afghanistan would share little in common with an American entanglement against China, the Chinese military studies these situations very carefully for any lessons it could glean.

[Papewaio]

Australia also has 22 million people vs our 300+ mil.
It's pointless to draw parallels between the two countries.

Ratios.
Per Capita.
Compare similar number of states, with similar ethnic mix and background.
Meta studies.
Many ways to compare and contrast data from different sized number sets.

Canada, Australia and US are different but similar enough that you can learn from each other and cherry pick the best of solutions.

As I stated earlier its your country, your rules, your outcomes. USA leads the way in so many areas it is an amazing icon. It's size doesn't always work for it and its social inertia can be counter productive.

Forgive me if I have different preferences. I do not as a Kiwi expect everyone to be an Ozzie. That's like asking a Canuck to want everyone to be a Yank. I like the variations, I'm just personally happier to give up urban gun ownership for increased safety in Australia. In New Zealand with far more rural based people and plenty of pests to hunt, gun ownership is a far more positive thing as they are tools and generally taught as such. So horses for courses.

[Major Robert Dump]

DAWG: nothing you laid out makes organized arming of teachers any less absurd. And the fact that you think they can "earn their keep" by being armed is even more absurd. Throw as much analyticals as you want, I will continue to live in the real world. I wold be perfectly willing to entertain the notion of allowing CC holders to carry at school, but never the idea of arming teachers as a rule.

I think the one thing everyone is forgetting in this entire tragedy, with their talk of changing gun culture, is the irrepairable harm that would come to the rap industry if we enacted gun prohibition. Are you guys willing to answer for all those lost jobs? Won't someone think of the rap music?

[ICantSpellDawg]

DAWG: nothing you laid out makes organized arming of teachers any less absurd. And the fact that you think they can "earn their keep" by being armed is even more absurd. Throw as much analyticals as you want, I will continue to live in the real world. I wold be perfectly willing to entertain the notion of allowing CC holders to carry at school, but never the idea of arming teachers as a rule.

How would CC holders being allowed to carry at school and not be punished by the government have helped prevent this kind of tragedy? Other types, sure. Unless you also allowed employees who had their CCW's to carry to work at school it would be meaningless. My suggestion is not that we arm all teachers, but rather that we arm some admins or other workers who arn't in regular contact, maybe teachers if they are so inclined and it would not pose a major hazard. Not arm teachers as a rule, I havn't said that

[Major Robert Dump]

How would CC holders being allowed to carry at school and not be punished by the government have helped prevent this kind of tragedy? Other types, sure. Unless you also allowed employees who had their CCW's to carry to work at school it would be meaningless. My suggestion is not that we arm all teachers, but rather that we arm some admins or other workers who arn't in regular contact, maybe teachers if they are so inclined and it would not pose a major hazard. Not arm teachers as a rule, I havn't said that

It would have to be "as a rule" because otherwise there would not be enough takers. We are talking about schools, at least in this instance, as being in municipalities inside of towns inside of states, not feds in federal airports in federal skies. In order for your plan to come off, it would have to be complied to, which would raise all sorts of liability, district, county, city and state issues that no one wants to touch, especially school admins and teachers. Or we could just put more cops/security in schools as dedicated security, not an administrator trying to juggle duties and be school security. To argue that it would cost more would actually be unprovable, because I promise you that arming clerks and educators will make insurance premiums skyrocket. And if it did cost more, then so what? That's the price we have to pay for getting our cool toys.

Let me tell you where this is going to go, since politicians don't have the balls to close loopholes for fear or rustling feathers. They are going to take the path of least resistence. They are going to use the same conecept being used for ObamaCare, for Tobacco and for Lotteries: PREPARE FOR FIREARMS TO HAVE THE LIVING HELL TAXED OUT OF THEM. And that, my friends, is how we will cover the costs of added security, both physical and administrative.

@Panzer: many states (not sure about the federal level) have laws that do not allow firearms in the homes of felons or abusers. I foresee similar measures to be taken in conjunction with homes where people with mental issues are present.

What I find really funny is that the VA and DOD give names of mentally defunct veterans to the fed to prevent them from buying firearms. Not gonna debate this issue, and I would be willing to bet ole Tom Coburn takes his dog out of this fight now. But if I am not mistaken, there is no similar database kept for the casual mental health recipient, due much I am sure to patient-provider confidentiality. Much of the ATF form relies on the honor system.

[PanzerJaeger]

What has always fascinated me about the gun grabbers is their complete silence on alcohol. Alcohol related deaths claim the lives of millions of people each year, hundreds of thousands of them being innocent children - far more than firearms. Even infallible Australia isn't immune to the misery caused by the substance. And the typical arguments about guns are uniquely interchangeable. Consumable alcohol serves absolutely no beneficial social good. It's sole purpose is to alter people's mental state, which leads to all manner of terrible outcomes. The fact that millions consume it responsibly each year does not negate the fact that millions also die each year because of it.

And yet, in all the years that I've been reading Pap's and some of the others' posts, I've never read a word written about the social costs of alcohol. This leads me to believe that the immediate jump to ban guns, as opposed to say, trying to understand why society keeps letting mentally disturbed individuals fall through the cracks, is not out of a genuine concern for the teh childrenz. If it were, such posters would be calling for a return to Prohibition in the states and abroad. Instead, the urge to ban instead of understand reveals deep rooted fear or ignorance about guns and/or general disdain of the mindset that leads people to desire gun ownership.

[Hooahguy]

And yet, in all the years that I've been reading Pap's and some of the others' posts, I've never read a word written about the social costs of alcohol.

Because banning alcohol has been tried and it failed miserably. Which is why banning guns will also fail but people are delusional so they think it will work because panic is always fun to practice.

[Beskar]

Because banning alcohol has been tried and it failed miserably. Which is why banning guns will also fail but people are delusional so they think it will work because panic is always fun to practice.

Not really the same. Brewing a beer can be done in a bath tub with stuff from the supermarket. You cannot make a gun anywhere as easy. Only issue with America is the prevalence of guns in mainstream culture which would make it difficult to remove whilst in other countries, it is a non-issue.

[Catiline]

What has always fascinated me about the gun grabbers is their complete silence on alcohol.

Yay for the strawman.

[Hooahguy]

Yay for the strawman.

Explain please.

[Ironside]

And yet, in all the years that I've been reading Pap's and some of the others' posts, I've never read a word written about the social costs of alcohol. This leads me to believe that the immediate jump to ban guns, as opposed to say, trying to understand why society keeps letting mentally disturbed individuals fall through the cracks, is not out of a genuine concern for the teh childrenz. If it were, such posters would be calling for a return to Prohibition in the states and abroad. Instead, the urge to ban instead of understand reveals deep rooted fear or ignorance about guns and/or general disdain of the mindset that leads people to desire gun ownership.

"Why do you have a military compound in the middle of the city?"
"It's a school."

Simply comparing the number of school shootings in the US to Europe tells that something is off. And since you do have an unusually aggressive gun culture (guns for defense (and therefore aggression) is seen as normal) it's what the focus will be.

It is more factors involved, but that's more subtile and harder to see if they are influential or not.

[Husar]

What has always fascinated me about the gun grabbers is their complete silence on alcohol. Alcohol related deaths claim the lives of millions of people each year, hundreds of thousands of them being innocent children - far more than firearms. Even infallible Australia isn't immune to the misery caused by the substance. And the typical arguments about guns are uniquely interchangeable. Consumable alcohol serves absolutely no beneficial social good. It's sole purpose is to alter people's mental state, which leads to all manner of terrible outcomes. The fact that millions consume it responsibly each year does not negate the fact that millions also die each year because of it.

And yet, in all the years that I've been reading Pap's and some of the others' posts, I've never read a word written about the social costs of alcohol. This leads me to believe that the immediate jump to ban guns, as opposed to say, trying to understand why society keeps letting mentally disturbed individuals fall through the cracks, is not out of a genuine concern for the teh childrenz. If it were, such posters would be calling for a return to Prohibition in the states and abroad. Instead, the urge to ban instead of understand reveals deep rooted fear or ignorance about guns and/or general disdain of the mindset that leads people to desire gun ownership.

Says the guy who was in favor of invading two countries, killing hundreds of thousands of people and taking a whole lot of freedoms away over a statistically insignificant terror attack... Statistical significance can obviously not be a deciding factor.

[Papewaio]

A moderate amount of shots of alcohol can increase ones lifespan.

How many shots to the head with a gun can increase ones lifespan?

There is a risk vs reward/utility of an object or action. Not only equally risky actions have an equal payoff.

Cars kill people regularly. And I for one think a drunk or drugged driver should be prosecuted harsher then a non-addled driver. However I do not support a ban on vehicles for everyone as they have a utility that if driven correctly far outweighs their problems. I do support banning those with medical conditions such as epileptics passengers only, and those who need glasses should be wearing them.

A lot, not all alcohol related injuries and deaths are to the user. Unfortunately a lot also hurt those around them. I'm not pro-alcohol, I've had my share of bad mentors in that field. I chose not to get a car license until I felt I was more mature and could handle the responsibility, I also did not even touch alcohol until 22 and even then not very regularly at all (legal age is 18). I do drink now, but my rule is only when I am happy and in general have achieved something.

I'm also not against hunters and farmers having access to firearms.