Results 1 to 30 of 501

Thread: Newtown School Shootings

Hybrid View

Previous Post Previous Post   Next Post Next Post
  1. #1
    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Taplow, UK
    Posts
    8,690
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default Re: Newtown School Shootings

    Quote Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name View Post
    FBI statistics also show a 46.76% drop in the violent crime rate since 1991. What do you make of that?

    EDIT: The murder rate decreased even further, by 51% over two decades.
    Congratulations! You've shot down to 3.5 times that of the UK - result!!!

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
    Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
    "If you can't trust the local kleptocrat whom you installed by force and prop up with billions of annual dollars, who can you trust?" Lemur
    If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain.
    The best argument against democracy is a five minute talk with the average voter. Winston Churchill

  2. #2
    Part-Time Polemic Senior Member ICantSpellDawg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    U.S.
    Posts
    7,237

    Default Re: Newtown School Shootings

    What is the population difference of the most at risk groups of perpetration and victimization? If blacks commit 8 times the murders of their white counterparts and Hispanics commit some other multiplier above, what multiplier of blacks and hispanics does the US have over the UK as a percentage of the population? 2x? 3x? 8x? 15x?

    White people have a higher statistical success rate at gun related homicide, but black people have more practice. Some discussion of demographics when reviewing the rate out of 100k is in order. More homogeneous societies where the history of poverty from immigration and racism is modern are expected to have lower rates. Prove me wrong. None of this is to say that white people wouldn't have such high homicide rates if they were in similar situations of poverty, but the number must be controlled for this if we are comparing. Apples to apples!

    http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...55534169,d.dmQ
    Last edited by ICantSpellDawg; 12-20-2012 at 13:32.
    "That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."
    -Eric "George Orwell" Blair

    "If the policy of the government, upon vital questions affecting the whole people, is to be irrevocably fixed by decisions of the Supreme Court...the people will have ceased to be their own rulers, having to that extent practically resigned the government into the hands of that eminent tribunal."
    (Lincoln's First Inaugural Address, 1861).
    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

  3. #3
    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Taplow, UK
    Posts
    8,690
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default Re: Newtown School Shootings

    Prove you wrong? You've not offered anything to prove you right!

    Control numbers of what exactly? Unless you can offer some evidence that the mere colour of one's skin makes one shoot others then I'm at a loss to the point of what you're saying.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
    Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
    "If you can't trust the local kleptocrat whom you installed by force and prop up with billions of annual dollars, who can you trust?" Lemur
    If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain.
    The best argument against democracy is a five minute talk with the average voter. Winston Churchill

  4. #4
    Part-Time Polemic Senior Member ICantSpellDawg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    U.S.
    Posts
    7,237

    Default Re: Newtown School Shootings

    I'm on a tablet, but I posted a link to a Rutgers study from 2002
    "That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."
    -Eric "George Orwell" Blair

    "If the policy of the government, upon vital questions affecting the whole people, is to be irrevocably fixed by decisions of the Supreme Court...the people will have ceased to be their own rulers, having to that extent practically resigned the government into the hands of that eminent tribunal."
    (Lincoln's First Inaugural Address, 1861).
    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

  5. #5
    Senior Member Senior Member Idaho's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Exeter, England
    Posts
    6,542

    Default Re: Newtown School Shootings

    Quote Originally Posted by ICantSpellDawg View Post
    What is the population difference of the most at risk groups of perpetration and victimization? If blacks commit 8 times the murders of their white counterparts and Hispanics commit some other multiplier above, what multiplier of blacks and hispanics does the US have over the UK as a percentage of the population? 2x? 3x? 8x? 15x?

    White people have a higher statistical success rate at gun related homicide, but black people have more practice. Some discussion of demographics when reviewing the rate out of 100k is in order. More homogeneous societies where the history of poverty from immigration and racism is modern are expected to have lower rates. Prove me wrong. None of this is to say that white people wouldn't have such high homicide rates if they were in similar situations of poverty, but the number must be controlled for this if we are comparing. Apples to apples!

    http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...55534169,d.dmQ
    So you are saying that the US has more blacks than the UK, so naturally has more murders? Nice!
    "The republicans will draft your kids, poison the air and water, take away your social security and burn down black churches if elected." Gawain of Orkney

  6. #6

    Default Re: Newtown School Shootings

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    Congratulations! You've shot down to 3.5 times that of the UK - result!!!

    You know, I think I am done with this thread. It's obvious that this thread has just become a nice circlejerk among certain europeans who figure that the only statistic that matters is that their number is lower than the US number. You all more or less know me, I am not exactly an American patriot like some of the more right wing American members here. But the arrogance towards the US in general is just insufferable for me.

    It's very frustrating to try and explain the differences between US and Europe and get these one liner responses that either outright dismiss the argument or just a rehash of the same statistical argument "we have less deaths, we are more civilized, listen to us."

    Someone pointed out that Canada has a fair share of guns and does not have the same problem as the US. Obviously, this is a multifaceted problem involving American culture, more specifically I have made the case that the problem is our terrible mental healthcare, and indeed out healthcare in general. But again, the reaction is to refocus the argument on how not why.

    It has been pointed out that the demographics are different for the US, our border situation is different, our neighbors are different (who exactly is the Mexico of Europe?), our history is different, our individual states are different themselves. But no, such things are dismissed as "gang violence is only 12%, you are still barbarians." or "You are saying african americans commit a large portion of overall gun crimes against other african americans? Racist!"

    The US is not as urban nor as homogeneous as European countries are, falling back on European attempts at multiculturalism as a defense against the homogeneous argument is laughable. As if a policy that is a few decades old counters an entire culture built upon three centuries of any man, woman and child across the world staking a claim in North America.

    Even worse is when I point out that despite the rampant proliferation of guns and the victories of gun culture over the past two decades, we have seen gun related crimes and violent crime in general per capita decline by tremendous amounts. The US is improving, we are becoming more responsible but people want to cave into the immediate emotions now, or they don't want to admit that in the long run there could be a different way than the European model. Instead you get responses like the one I quoted above. Nothing like a few days of condescension from people who live 8 time zones away when 18 of your fellow Americans, kids no less, have been killed.

    What's even more sad is when the American liberals hop onto the bandwagon and start painting everyone willing to break the circle as some absolutist extremist. As if the Assault Weapons Ban stopped the kids in Columbine from killing as many fucking students as they wanted. As if the Connecticut ban on handguns for anyone under 21 stopped the 20 year old killer from obtaining a handgun. As if a fucking 30 round magazine is what makes the difference between a massacre and a single murder. Because we all know that if you only have 8 bullet magazines, the killer will need to spend an extra 10 seconds swapping out magazines, which makes the difference for people running at 2% of the speed of a bullet (http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i...ed+of+a+bullet).

    Obviously though we are just savages who are ignorant of how best to save lives. If only we were as careful with guns as say, Norway, nothing like this would have happened.

    I am just done here. No one wants to talk about the real statistics that matter. The fact that there are 3 times more mentally ill people in jail in the US than in actual treatment facilities. We have no other place to put them. http://gawker.com/5968818/i-am-adam-lanzas-mother

    This will likely be my last post in this thread. I am really done reading this. I hope American society continues to improve as it has over the past two decades and shows the world that with enough emphasis on responsibility and improving mental health care we can indeed live in a society where we enjoy the freedom to own guns and live safely as well.

    Members thankful for this post (6):



  7. #7
    Upstanding Member rvg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    America
    Posts
    3,818

    Default Re: Newtown School Shootings

    "And if the people raise a great howl against my barbarity and cruelty, I will answer that war is war and not popularity seeking. If they want peace, they and their relatives must stop the war." - William Tecumseh Sherman

    “The market, like the Lord, helps those who help themselves. But unlike the Lord, the market does not forgive those who know not what they do.” - Warren Buffett

  8. #8
    Part-Time Polemic Senior Member ICantSpellDawg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    U.S.
    Posts
    7,237

    Default Re: Newtown School Shootings

    The United States homicide rate is 4.2 out of 100k per anum avg
    The United Kingdom homicide rate is 1.7 out of 100k per anum avg

    In the U.S., whites commit 1 homicide to every 8 committed by blacks. Hispanics commit some multiplier (2-3x) of homicides to every 1 by whites, but it is a number between 2 and 8

    In the U.S., non-hispanic Whites make up 63.7% of the population, blacks are 12.6%, hispanics make up around 16%
    In the U.K., non hispanic whites make up 92% of the population, blacks make up around 2%, hispanics don't register.

    here is an article from the CDC, "the conservative d-bags council"?, no wait, the federal center for disease control...
    During 2007, homicide rates were highest among persons aged 15--34 years, and the overall unadjusted rate for males was approximately 4 times that of females (9.8 versus 2.5 deaths per 100,000 population, respectively. Unadjusted homicide rates were highest among blacks (23.1 deaths per 100,000), followed by AI/ANs (7.8) and Hispanics (7.6), then whites (2.7) and A/PIs (2.4)
    Can anyone break those figures down for me? To pretend that homogeneity and heterogeneity don't enter into the figures is a lie. I like a cosmopolitan society, but I don't like people to lie to me or themselves about reality. Make it about class or status as it relates to race, but weigh the numbers fairly. This isn't aryan race crap, I think people are inherently equal and certain subsections of society have been unfairly disadvantaged due to deeply rooted emotions. It just doesn't mean that I'm going to lie to myself.
    Last edited by ICantSpellDawg; 12-21-2012 at 03:29.
    "That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."
    -Eric "George Orwell" Blair

    "If the policy of the government, upon vital questions affecting the whole people, is to be irrevocably fixed by decisions of the Supreme Court...the people will have ceased to be their own rulers, having to that extent practically resigned the government into the hands of that eminent tribunal."
    (Lincoln's First Inaugural Address, 1861).
    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

  9. #9
    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    15,677

    Default Re: Newtown School Shootings

    CDC is a good place for this information

    http://www.cdc.gov/violencepreventio..._age-race.html

    That particular link is by ethnic group for 10-24 yr olds
    Our genes maybe in the basement but it does not stop us chosing our point of view from the top.
    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat
    Pape for global overlord!!
    Quote Originally Posted by English assassin
    Squid sources report that scientists taste "sort of like chicken"
    Quote Originally Posted by frogbeastegg View Post
    The rest is either as average as advertised or, in the case of the missionary, disappointing.

  10. #10
    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Albion
    Posts
    15,930
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default Re: Newtown School Shootings

    Though White-British is a minority in London.

    White British: 44.9%
    Other white: 14.9%
    Asian: 18.4%
    Black: 13.3%
    Arab: 1.3%
    Mixed race: 5%
    Homicide Rate in London? 1.8 per 100,000 people.

    Not really homogeneous/heterogeneous issue.
    Last edited by Beskar; 12-21-2012 at 03:21.
    Days since the Apocalypse began
    "We are living in space-age times but there's too many of us thinking with stone-age minds" | How to spot a Humanist
    "Men of Quality do not fear Equality." | "Belief doesn't change facts. Facts, if you are reasonable, should change your beliefs."

  11. #11
    Part-Time Polemic Senior Member ICantSpellDawg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    U.S.
    Posts
    7,237

    Default Re: Newtown School Shootings

    The one I posted is unadjusted for all ages, right?

    So London would be a better comparison, although you guys didn't enslave (arguably) and completely decimate the culture of the "asians, blacks, arabs, and mixed race" right? The relative poverty is massively different. Personally I believe that socioeconomic status and disenfranchisement are the causes of high crime, it's just that in the US we have too great a share of that problem in 2 ethnic groups (although there are technically more whites below the poverty line than blacks in sheer number). Compare incomes in each of those groups vs their white counterparts.

    In NYC blacks and hispanics make up 55% of the population, the remaining 45% is non-hispanic white (21%) Asian (10%) Other (14%). Our cosmopolitan is one that you couldn't even fathom.
    Last edited by ICantSpellDawg; 12-21-2012 at 03:28.
    "That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."
    -Eric "George Orwell" Blair

    "If the policy of the government, upon vital questions affecting the whole people, is to be irrevocably fixed by decisions of the Supreme Court...the people will have ceased to be their own rulers, having to that extent practically resigned the government into the hands of that eminent tribunal."
    (Lincoln's First Inaugural Address, 1861).
    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

  12. #12
    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    15,677

    Default Re: Newtown School Shootings

    London is as mixed, it's just different "races" in each positon.

    Sydney is similar in mix with 39% born overseas.
    Our genes maybe in the basement but it does not stop us chosing our point of view from the top.
    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat
    Pape for global overlord!!
    Quote Originally Posted by English assassin
    Squid sources report that scientists taste "sort of like chicken"
    Quote Originally Posted by frogbeastegg View Post
    The rest is either as average as advertised or, in the case of the missionary, disappointing.

  13. #13
    Part-Time Polemic Senior Member ICantSpellDawg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    U.S.
    Posts
    7,237

    Default Re: Newtown School Shootings

    Most of those "born overseas" in Sydney are British, South African, Rhodesian, Kiwi - other commonwealth and other european. In other word's - people who look, act and have ancestries with 6 degrees of separation from you. Barely 10% even look different or come from markedly different linguistic and cultural origins - and 2% of those were in Australia before you got there not from "overseas". My city dwarfs yours in "cultural ecleticity". But congratulations on being a bumpkin
    Last edited by ICantSpellDawg; 12-21-2012 at 04:07.
    "That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."
    -Eric "George Orwell" Blair

    "If the policy of the government, upon vital questions affecting the whole people, is to be irrevocably fixed by decisions of the Supreme Court...the people will have ceased to be their own rulers, having to that extent practically resigned the government into the hands of that eminent tribunal."
    (Lincoln's First Inaugural Address, 1861).
    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO