How could a loving god send people to Hell?

[Idaho]

That would be one interpretation.

The key point being - the rapist/murderer recognises the magnitude of his crimes and his utter lack of justification before God. The Atheist claims that, if there were a God, he would deserve to go to heaven.

No Christian believes he deserves to go to heaven - believing you deserve​ something is anathema to Christianity at its most basic level.

It's also worth pointing out that the atheist doesn't want to be with God - so he can't exactly complain when he dies and is separated from God. Saint Augustine said that all men are sick in their souls, a Christian is merely someone who realises he is ill and seeks treatment. For Augustine that realisation was an autonomous act which all humans were capable of.

The atheist doesn't want to be without god, just that with the brain god has given, and the evidence god has laid out, it seems unlikely to the atheist that Christianity holds more than general life guidance with a lot of hocum thrown in.

[rory_20_uk]

The whole exercise feels like the poor communication officer on the podium "clarifying" something that his boss just said. Intially he was fine as each time a question was asked he pulled out a pistol and shot the person. Increasingly, after runing out of bullets tying himself in knots "interpreting" this.

[spankythehippo]

Generally, most faiths reward good behaviour and punish misdeeds.

Going to heaven should be like a point system. Positive points for good, negative points for bad.

"You walked an old lady across the street? Here, have 5 points."

OH YEAH!

"But you murdered a nun... I'm taking away 200 points."

Goddamn it.

...

Come Judgment Day...

"Let's see now. You're in the positive numbers, so that's good. Still not high enough to be with Jesus. You can stay in the working-class district of Heaven."


See how much more effective this would be with a Divine Leaderboard? People would be competing to get more points, but of course, there would be trolls who would try to get the lowest score as humanly possible.


Now that I'm thinking about it, it does have a few flaws. Well God, if you're out there, feel free to implement my point system in this world. I sure could use a laugh.

[Sigurd]

Generally, most faiths reward good behaviour and punish misdeeds.
Going to heaven should be like a point system. Positive points for good, negative points for bad.
"You walked an old lady across the street? Here, have 5 points."
OH YEAH!
"But you murdered a nun... I'm taking away 200 points."
Goddamn it.
...
Come Judgment Day...
"Let's see now. You're in the positive numbers, so that's good. Still not high enough to be with Jesus. You can stay in the working-class district of Heaven."
See how much more effective this would be with a Divine Leaderboard? People would be competing to get more points, but of course, there would be trolls who would try to get the lowest score as humanly possible.
Now that I'm thinking about it, it does have a few flaws. Well God, if you're out there, feel free to implement my point system in this world. I sure could use a laugh.

...(condensed)

That's the thing... According to Christianity Jesus paid for all sins ever committed against God. Every sin is paid for in full -God's justice is satisfied.
I heard this analogy by an american associate: It's like you having 100 parking tickets in California. The Justice system demands that you either pay them or serve time. But you don't have the money... When you show up in court, all tickets are paid for by this guy down the street. Justice is served as the tickets are paid - and you are free to go... Thanks unknown guy!! whaddayamean I need to believe it happened OR ELSE... ???

Predestination/free will
Both are true,God knows peoples heart before they are born, he predestines them to be saved. Those that live by faith god foreknow them by faith, he predestined them to be saved.
If predestination is true than no need to evangelize.
Gen 2.19 Ezekiel 18.2-32 luke 13.34 matt 18.14 mark 8.34 Deuteronomy 5.29

The co-existence of free will and predestination answer is not satisfactory.
If he predestines someone to salvation, wouldn't he predestine someone to damnation also? Hence back to your original question. Why populate hell with his own offspring? Let me hear the angle of oppositions must exist.

[total relism]

So an unbelieving agnostic and/or atheist goes to hell?

A heretic goes to hell?

A repentant rapist and/or murderer and/or pedophile who fully sees the errors of his ways and repents is embraced by God and goes to heaven?

everyone goes to hell, unless you have never sinned before. If that is the case than you can freeley go to haven. But god and haven are perfect/sinless place and god cant dwell with sin. So we cannot go there assuming you have sinned. But because god loves us, he sent jesus to die for us pay the penalty and by his grace and love for us, we are saved, not because we have earned or worked off so that he must pay us. he pays us even though we cant fully do the work, so he did so himself.


5 But He was wounded for our transgressions,
He was bruised for our iniquities;
The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,
And by His stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
We have turned, every one, to his own way;
And the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
Isiah 53 5-6




god wants not even the sinner to die or be separated from him.


"'Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked?,' says the Lord God, 'And not rather that he should turn from his way and live? For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone,' says the Lord God. 'So turn and live! Say to them, "As I live," says the Lord God, "I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways. For why will you die?"'" (Ez. 18.23,32; 33.11).

Can't you just update this thread? New posts for arguments made by other people on other forums isn't necessary.


Aren't you saying that 1) There are no innocent people, since we are all sinners, and thus, seeing as we all deserve punishment since we have all turned away at least partly from God, we should all go to Hell?

CR

No because I want to use each thread as reference in future on this forum. Each topic is unique and deserves its own thread I believe.


Yes to second part, what I was saying in bolded part is simply no innocent person will ever be sent to hell. But we are all guilty.

The atheist doesn't want to be without god, just that with the brain god has given, and the evidence god has laid out, it seems unlikely to the atheist that Christianity holds more than general life guidance with a lot of hocum thrown in.

Dont we wish this was true, I offer to debate you personally in a 1v1 debate at twcenter forums, or here if we can. I will show this is not the case at all. But it is your worldview that is determined by your hearts wants that controls how you decide truth and inteprite evidence.

Generally, most faiths reward good behaviour and punish misdeeds.

Going to heaven should be like a point system. Positive points for good, negative points for bad.

"You walked an old lady across the street? Here, have 5 points."

OH YEAH!

"But you murdered a nun... I'm taking away 200 points."

Goddamn it.

...

Come Judgment Day...

"Let's see now. You're in the positive numbers, so that's good. Still not high enough to be with Jesus. You can stay in the working-class district of Heaven."


See how much more effective this would be with a Divine Leaderboard? People would be competing to get more points, but of course, there would be trolls who would try to get the lowest score as humanly possible.


Now that I'm thinking about it, it does have a few flaws. Well God, if you're out there, feel free to implement my point system in this world. I sure could use a laugh.

I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!"
Galatians 2:21


I think it comes down to gods perfect holiness and judgment. He cant allow even a few sins go unpunished or he is unjust. I recommend a debate on this topic if your interested.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPWle3mIFBk

.
The co-existence of free will and predestination answer is not satisfactory.
If he predestines someone to salvation, wouldn't he predestine someone to damnation also? Hence back to your original question. Why populate hell with his own offspring? Let me hear the angle of oppositions must exist.

I dont see why its a problem. He does not want any to go to hell.



"The Lord is not willing that any should perish but that all should reach repentance" (2Pet. 3.9).

"He desires all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth" (1Tim. 2.4).

"'Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked?,' says the Lord God, 'And not rather that he should turn from his way and live? For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone,' says the Lord God. 'So turn and live! Say to them, "As I live," says the Lord God, "I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways. For why will you die?"'" (Ez. 18.23,32; 33.11).



But he predestined those that would live by faith to be saved. Both the ones in havan and hell both chose there own paths, yet god foreknow who would chose each way.

[Sigurd]

I dont see why its a problem. He does not want any to go to hell.

"The Lord is not willing that any should perish but that all should reach repentance" (2Pet. 3.9).
"He desires all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth" (1Tim. 2.4).
"'Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked?,' says the Lord God, 'And not rather that he should turn from his way and live? For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone,' says the Lord God. 'So turn and live! Say to them, "As I live," says the Lord God, "I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways. For why will you die?"'" (Ez. 18.23,32; 33.11).

But he predestined those that would live by faith to be saved. Both the ones in havan and hell both chose there own paths, yet god foreknow who would chose each way.

You say that he does not want to condemn anyone to hell.. Predestination according to Calvin contradicts this. If God "knows" your fate before you are born, then he has condemned you before he created you.
In the same breath that you propose a predestined salvation, you also propose a predestined damnation. You say God know who will be saved. Well then, you also say God knows who will not be saved - which is synonym with damned. Even before God sends you to your parents he knows you will end up in hell... why send you at all? It would be better if he only sent those who would obtain salvation. Hence a perfect creation with a successful outcome.

Either you forgo Calvinistic predestination and embrace true free will or stick to a fixed game where God "chooses" which go to hell and which do not.

[total relism]

You say that he does not want to condemn anyone to hell.. Predestination according to Calvin contradicts this. If God "knows" your fate before you are born, then he has condemned you before he created you.
In the same breath that you propose a predestined salvation, you also propose a predestined damnation. You say God know who will be saved. Well then, you also say God knows who will not be saved - which is synonym with damned. Even before God sends you to your parents he knows you will end up in hell... why send you at all? It would be better if he only sent those who would obtain salvation. Hence a perfect creation with a successful outcome.

Either you forgo Calvinistic predestination and embrace true free will or stick to a fixed game where God "chooses" which go to hell and which do not.

first I am not hard line predestination as many think of it I reject that idea as i clearly posted earlier on my first response to you.

Predestination/free will
Both are true,God knows peoples heart before they are born, he predestines them to be saved. Those that live by faith god foreknow them by faith, he predestined them to be saved.
If predestination is true than no need to evangelize.
Gen 2.19 Ezekiel 18.2-32 luke 13.34 matt 18.14 mark 8.34 Deuteronomy 5.29


I dont care what calvin says, I care what bible says. I agree that god created a world knowing many would reject him. But he also created as stated with free will. He does not want any to deny him but knows they will. You also assume falsely god can control who will reject him. He cannot, some will some wont.

I think a part of a william lane craig debate might help.
Suppose that God could create a world in which everyone is freely saved, but there is only one problem: all such worlds have only one person in them! Does God's being all-loving compel Him to prefer one of these underpopulated worlds over a world in which multitudes are saved, even though some people freely go to hell? I don't think so. God's being all-loving implies that in any world He creates He desires and strives for the salvation of every person in that world. But people who would freely reject God's every effort to save them shouldn't be allowed to have some sort of veto power over what worlds God is free to create. Why should the joy and the blessedness of those who would freely accept God's salvation be precluded because of those who would stubbornly and freely reject it? It seems to me that God's being all-loving would at the very most require Him to create a world having an optimal balance between saved and lost, a world where as many as possible freely accept salvation and as few as possible freely reject it.

Read more: http://www.reasonablefaith.org/can-a...#ixzz2HNKHOzoD



But to add onto that, god allows things to happen even though he knows the future. So for example, god punishes certain people for there crimes, yet he waits untill the crime is committed. He could punish right off [a murderer] and not allow it to happen. Yet he first allows than gives consequence. Same with salvation, he tries to draw near to people who he knows will reject him, jesus dies for all sinners not just those that would receive him etc.


and as I said in OP
It is not gods fault that many will reject him, his offer is still fair and loving as hell was never meant for man.
Man chooses to go there witch has nothing to do with gods love or fairness but mans free will.
What of the people who do accept him? Should he not have made them because of those that chose life without god?

[Sigurd]

first I am not hard line predestination as many think of it I reject that idea as i clearly posted earlier on my first response to you.

Predestination/free will

Both are true,God knows peoples heart before they are born, he predestines them to be saved. Those that live by faith god foreknow them by faith, he predestined them to be saved.
If predestination is true than no need to evangelize.
Gen 2.19 Ezekiel 18.2-32 luke 13.34 matt 18.14 mark 8.34 Deuteronomy 5.29

I read the above and first you say they are both true... I think that they are mutually exclusive. You need to choose either.
The second highlight favours complete free will... nothing is set in stone, no predestination is committed. Which is more sound.

I dont care what calvin says, I care what bible says. I agree that god created a world knowing many would reject him. But he also created as stated with free will. He does not want any to deny him but knows they will. You also assume falsely god can control who will reject him. He cannot, some will some wont.

Let's agree that predestination IS the doctrine proposed by Calvinism and nothing else... you should move away from the word and use something else if you want to incorporate free will and the foreknowledge of God.

But to add onto that, god allows things to happen even though he knows the future. So for example, god punishes certain people for there crimes, yet he waits untill the crime is committed. He could punish right off [a murderer] and not allow it to happen. Yet he first allows than gives consequence. Same with salvation, he tries to draw near to people who he knows will reject him, jesus dies for all sinners not just those that would receive him etc.

and as I said in OP
It is not gods fault that many will reject him, his offer is still fair and loving as hell was never meant for man.
Man chooses to go there witch has nothing to do with gods love or fairness but mans free will.
What of the people who do accept him? Should he not have made them because of those that chose life without god?

This is more in line with free will... Man is free to choose evil and God will not intervene in those choices... but will hand out the consequences, either temporal (Sodom and Gomorrah, Lot's wife) and/or eternal (damnation). Man's destiny is not set in stone and he/she will be able to choose salvation in this lifetime by repentance.

I gave you a handle in my second post --- I would like to hear your opinion of it.
You could finish this sentence: Opposition in all things exists because ...

[spankythehippo]

I think it comes down to gods perfect holiness and judgment.

So God's judgment is perfect? Any evidence for this, or is this just one of the many taken-to-be-true-without-question "facts" purported in holy texts? If you do have evidence for God's perfect judgment, I'd love to hear them.

And please don't refer me to the OP. That seems to be the focal point of your argument.

[Ronin]

The co-existence of free will and predestination answer is not satisfactory.
If he predestines someone to salvation, wouldn't he predestine someone to damnation also? Hence back to your original question. Why populate hell with his own offspring? Let me hear the angle of oppositions must exist.

and even if God gave man free will, he still has them living under the threat of hell.
choices made under that kind of intimidation are not exactly free.

[total relism]

and even if God gave man free will, he still has them living under the threat of hell.
choices made under that kind of intimidation are not exactly free.

Please read op,god/the bible see it very differently. Would would you suggest to do with a eternal,guilty, person who rejects god?.

[Ronin]

Please read op,god/the bible see it very differently. Would would you suggest to do with a eternal,guilty, person who rejects god?.

That problem is a corollary of the ideas that man is "eternal" and "guilty"
So I leave that imaginary problem to the people that made it up....I just pointed out the problem exists.

[Kralizec]

Reading the Old Testament gives you the distinct impression that the supernatural was a lot nearer. When God ruined Job’s life as part of a bet, Job is told by his wife that he should curse God for what has been done to him. Read: not deny his existence, which is what most of us would do but which didnt even enter their minds, but curse him. The moral of the story was that God can do whatever he pleases, and piety and respect to God may or may not be rewarded. If not, then the reasons for why not are none of your business and you should shut up. But I digress.

“Rejecting God” is a loaded term that implies that the person is not an atheist at all, but is perfectly aware that God exists, yet refuses to honor him. Since Hell is traditionally said to be extremely unpleasant it’s really quite ridiculous for someone with knowledge of God to refuse to honor him.

If we postulate that God exists, the reason why people like me go to hell would be that we don’t see any compelling reason to think God exists, him having not appeared physically in the last thousends of years despite supposedly appearing several times to the ancient Israelites. “Free will” my arse. I guess they never heard of the term informed choice in those days.

[Beskar]

From Blackadder:

Edmund: Well, well, let's take Hell: You know, Hell isn't as bad as it's cracked up to be.
Graveney: What?
Edmund: No, no, no, no. No, you see, the thing about Heaven, is that Heaven is for people who like the sort of things that go on in Heaven, like, uh, well, singing, talking to God, watering pot plants...
Graveney: Ew...
Edmund: Whereas Hell, on the other hand, is for people who like the other sorts of things: [with relish] adultery, pillage, torture — those... areas.
Graveney: Really?
Edmund: Mm! Give your lands to the Crown, and once you're dead, you'll have the time of your life!
Graveney: Adultery? Pillage? Through all eternity?
Edmund: Yep!
King: (handing over a quill) Lord Graveney, your decision...
Graveney: Very well. (signs) I leave my lands to the Crown, and my soul in the hands of the Lord. May He treat me like the piece of refuse that I am (rubs his hands together, grinning) and send me to Hell.

[Idaho]

How old are you and where are you from Total Relism?