Irish, and other minority languages

[Populus Romanus]

So I was reading up about the Irish language recently, and at first I thought it was rather sad that the language is disappearing from Ireland. However, on second thought, does anyone even care? Its an awful waste of time, from my perspective at least, because Irish seems to be pretty doomed and the dominance of English on the island is secure. Why do people get so worked up about these small languages? Is it nationalism or political correctness or multiculturalism that motivates people to "preserve" minority languages such as Irish, Occitan, Breton, Scots, Basque*, Catalan*, Welsh, etc.? And finally, is it worth all the effort?

*not sure if these really fit with the others as they seem to be doing fine on their own

[Fragony]

The Frysians still have their own language here, all but the older people also speak Dutch. I would be sad if it completely dies, just as it is sad when an animal-species gets extinct.

Edit, talk about language, I doubt you can spot where Dutch ends and Jiddish begins, I doubt that even the Dutchies here can http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pr4erUiuWYM

[Sarmatian]

Language is a pretty important part of national identity, so people naturally tend to preserve it.

[HopAlongBunny]

Definitely worth preserving.

We lose something in the way of knowledge and expression when a language dies.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

So I was reading up about the Irish language recently, and at first I thought it was rather sad that the language is disappearing from Ireland. However, on second thought, does anyone even care? Its an awful waste of time, from my perspective at least, because Irish seems to be pretty doomed and the dominance of English on the island is secure. Why do people get so worked up about these small languages? Is it nationalism or political correctness or multiculturalism that motivates people to "preserve" minority languages such as Irish, Occitan, Breton, Scots, Basque*, Catalan*, Welsh, etc.? And finally, is it worth all the effort?

*not sure if these really fit with the others as they seem to be doing fine on their own

Funny how the vast majority of those languages are either Brythonic or Gailic (Catalan is not a minority language).

A question for you - how do you propose to read Irish poetry without knowing any Irish?

[Populus Romanus]

Funny how the vast majority of those languages are either Brythonic or Gailic (Catalan is not a minority language).

A question for you - how do you propose to read Irish poetry without knowing any Irish?

I wouldn't be able to. But that wouldn't bother me, as much Irish poetry and other literature is already translated or being translated into English. If you can get a poem in Irish or in English, and everybody speaks English, why bother keeping the Irish version around? No reason. Eventually, after the last Irish speaker dies, no new Irish poetry will be created, anyways.

[gaelic cowboy]

I wouldn't be able to. But that wouldn't bother me, as much Irish poetry and other literature is already translated or being translated into English. If you can get a poem in Irish or in English, and everybody speaks English, why bother keeping the Irish version around? No reason. Eventually, after the last Irish speaker dies, no new Irish poetry will be created, anyways.

The reason is because poetry is meant to be read aloud the sounds of the words themselves are very important.

It would probably take hundreds years for the last irish speaker to die off, and even then the poetry will still hark back to something older.

it will be here for a whileen seeing as there doing the weather in irish

[jirisys]

I have wanted to learn Gaeilge eta Euskara for quite some time now. i have a thing for minority languages.

Euskara is not doing that well, not many basques speak it, although it's doing better than Gaeilge.

Also, wouldn't that argument also make the teaching of latin moot?

~Jirisys ()

[Noncommunist]

Funny how the vast majority of those languages are either Brythonic or Gailic (Catalan is not a minority language).

A question for you - how do you propose to read Irish poetry without knowing any Irish?

Endangered languages in western Europe are probably better known than those in other lands?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I wouldn't be able to. But that wouldn't bother me, as much Irish poetry and other literature is already translated or being translated into English. If you can get a poem in Irish or in English, and everybody speaks English, why bother keeping the Irish version around? No reason. Eventually, after the last Irish speaker dies, no new Irish poetry will be created, anyways.

You're right - you wouldn't be able to - you just be able to read the translation.

Remember when I quoted some Latin without translation and we got three separate English versions, which meant three different things?

The translation is not the same as the original - if you could read the original you'd realise how wretched the translation was and how it doesn't really convey the meaning very well at all. This goes for all translations - it is why we learn other languages.

If you can only read a translation you are dependent on someone else's understanding of the original, when no one can understand the original it cannot be re-translated - and then it is lost.

Endangered languages in western Europe are probably better known than those in other lands?

There are dialects of German that are dying out, Slavic and Finnish tongues that are near-extinct. It's interesting how the American's idea of "dying" languages is largely confined to the subject peoples who were under the English boot.

It says something about P.R. view of history.

[gaelic cowboy]

There are dialects of German that are dying out, Slavic and Finnish tongues that are near-extinct. It's interesting how the American's idea of "dying" languages is largely confined to the subject peoples who were under the English boot.

It says something about P.R. view of history.

I wouldn't consider the Irish language to be in danger of linguistic extinction there is easily a million people can speak Irish globally.


there is even plenty yanks that can speak it

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I find it interesting that a lot of the best English teachers I had were either Scot or Irish.

Maybe being bilingual improves their understanding of both languages.

That's a generally accepted truth - the more languages you speak the better.

I wouldn't consider the Irish language to be in danger of linguistic extinction there is easily a million people can speak Irish globally.

Neither would I - Welsh has not been in any danger for at least 20 years either.

[Papewaio]

I find it interesting that a lot of the best English teachers I had were either Scot or Irish.

Maybe being bilingual improves their understanding of both languages.

[gaelic cowboy]

So I was reading up about the Irish language recently, and at first I thought it was rather sad that the language is disappearing from Ireland. However, on second thought, does anyone even care? Its an awful waste of time, from my perspective at least, because Irish seems to be pretty doomed and the dominance of English on the island is secure. Why do people get so worked up about these small languages? Is it nationalism or political correctness or multiculturalism that motivates people to "preserve" minority languages such as Irish, Occitan, Breton, Scots, Basque*, Catalan*, Welsh, etc.? And finally, is it worth all the effort?

*not sure if these really fit with the others as they seem to be doing fine on their own

Mar sin, bhí mé ag léamh suas thart ar an nGaeilge le déanaí, agus ar dtús shíl mé go raibh sé in áit brónach go bhfuil an teanga ag imeacht as Éirinn. Mar sin féin, ar an dara machnaimh, an bhfuil duine ar bith a cúram fiú? A chuid an dramhaíl uafásach ama, ó mo thaobhsa ar a laghad, is é mar is cosúil Gaeilge a dar críoch go leor agus an ceannas an Bhéarla ar an oileán slán. Cén fáth a dhéanamh a fháil daoine a d'oibrigh chomh suas thart ar na teangacha beaga? An bhfuil sé náisiúnachas nó cruinneas polaitíochta nó ilchultúrachas gur féidir le daoine motivates go "chaomhnú" mionteangacha ar nós Gaeilge, Ocsatáinis, Briotáinis, Albanach, Bascais *, Catalóinis *, Breatnais, etc? Agus ar deireadh, tá fiú go léir ar an iarracht?

* Ní cinnte má na oiriúnach i ndáiríre leis na daoine eile mar is cosúil leo a bheith ag déanamh fíneáil ar a gcuid féin


Beidh Google smaoineamh ar na héireann a bheith thart ar feadh tamaill


Irish wont be disappearing anytime soon when there is plenty people living in gaeltachts who can still speak it and indeed plenty make a living from the language.

[HoreTore]

All languages except English should go down the toilet as fast as possible.

One world - One language.

[Kralizec]

Maybe, but first Norway has to settle on a single language. Dialects are permissable as long as they're mutually intelligable

For the record, I don't support any effort to replace the world's languages with a single lingua franca. I just don't see any particular reason to feel sad when a language dissapears because it's abandoned or superceded.

[Montmorency]

as soon as you've forcibly purged all the other languages your new super-language will begin to diverge.

Grammar police.

[HoreTore]

We have a Lingua Franca - it's called English, before that it was called Latin.

No, before that it was called "French". Funny how an englishman would forget that

No need for everyone to have english as a first language though - english as a second language is plenty. We loose a ton of resources globally on learning languages and defective communications. If everyone understood the same language, there would be a huge economic boost for everyone except language teachers(and they're a weird bunch anyway). English fits the bill because of its spread, not its phonetic qualities btw. But meh, the world is moving in that direction already, so I'm happy.

Maybe, but first Norway has to settle on a single language. Dialects are permissable as long as they're mutually intelligable

The sooner we throw out new-norwegian the better. Blasted thing has no positives at all, it can burn in hell for an eternity.

And I wouldn't cry if it took some of the weirder dialects with it. I'm looking at you, Telemark.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Not really. Setting a set standard of practise will keep it mutually the same with minor diverges and evolutions which end up getting incorporated within the dictionaries as the language evolves and adapts. The world at the moment is a heavily chalked up blackboard full of scribbles, what it needs is a good wipe down with new instructions written up, taking the best bits from all the scribbles, forcing a revolutionary change. After that, it is simply done and with how information technology works today it, would keep going for a very long time.

Lots of languages have "hangers on", infact, American English was an attempt to modernise the English language by removing some of them. A fundamental shake-up would force an revolutionary advancement in language (such as a new alphabet, based on the principles I mentioned). Other examples would be the metric system compared to the imperial system. There are ways to make things better, so lets make them better.

I'm sorry - it didn't work. Can a Frenchman understand a Spaniard?

No.

You're trying to fight against human nature again - and you're trying to enforce your idea of "better" again as well.

No, before that it was called "French". Funny how an englishman would forget that

Except French was never really a common language despite being the literal Lingua Franca. It nearly made the jump but then Charlemegne's empire collapsed - and Latin took over again. Yes, the language of Europe's Courts might have been French but they wrote treaties in Latin.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Except French was never really a common language despite being the literal Lingua Franca. It nearly made the jump but then Charlemegne's empire collapsed - and Latin took over again. Yes, the language of Europe's Courts might have been French but they wrote treaties in Latin.

At least in 18th/19th century higher education you were expected to learn French, much as you are expected to learn English today. Latin was the language of science and medicine, French was the language of commerce and international (business) relationships -- on the continent, at least.

It's therefore not entirely unfair to say that while French might not be a true lingua franca, its status was certainly as comparable to that of English today as Latin ever was.

[HoreTore]

Except French was never really a common language despite being the literal Lingua Franca. It nearly made the jump but then Charlemegne's empire collapsed - and Latin took over again. Yes, the language of Europe's Courts might have been French but they wrote treaties in Latin.

French was the language of diplomacy and literature - in other words the educated elite.

And as every good leninist knows: the masses are irrelevant.

[Sarmatian]

All languages except English should go down the toilet as fast as possible.

One world - One language.

One language is hardly gonna suffice. I'm gonna go on a limb here and say 3 languages for 21st century - English, Chinese and Spanish...

[a completely inoffensive name]

One language is hardly gonna suffice. I'm gonna go on a limb here and say 3 languages for 21st century - English, Chinese and Spanish...

There will be more than three languages by the end of the 21st century.

English, Russian, Spanish, French, Chinese, Indian and Arabic will still be spoken frequently by a large number of people in a large geographic area.

If I was to make a bet, the final two (in the distant future) will be English and Spanish.

[HoreTore]

There will be more than three languages by the end of the 21st century.

English, Russian, Spanish, French, Chinese, Indian and Arabic will still be spoken frequently by a large number of people in a large geographic area.

If I was to make a bet, the final two (in the distant future) will be English and Spanish.

New-Norwegian will also be spoken. The guys who speak that language rarely has any contact with anyone but their sheep, so there will be little outside influence.

[Fragony]

All languages except English should go down the toilet as fast as possible.

One world - One language.

English is a good choice for a universal language, it isn't very hard to learn. But we still wouldn't be able to understand eachother even if we are all fluent in it. Languages evolved within a cultural context and that can't be taken away. But it would be ok if it would be the universal language at universities and company's, there is really no excuse for not being able to speak it at least a bit. We will never be great at it though, the subtleties are lost to us, a truly universal language would be the death of 99% of poetry and literature. Some things in Dutch can simply not be translated to English (and vica versa)

[Hax]

Yeah, like apartheid.

[Fragony]

Yeah, like apartheid.

That's not Dutch it's Afrikaner, it's older than Dutch actually.

[Hax]

Afrikaans is by all means a sort of koiné of 17th century Dutch dialects.

[a completely inoffensive name]

In many ways, the language you grow up with shapes the way you think. Not all languages are structured the same, so when you make statements however mundane in German, your brain is processing the information in a different way than someone saying the same thing in English, or Latin or Irish or Indonesian. There are words with meanings that do not have a comparable word in other languages, feelings and abstract notions that have arisen in certain cultures that have not appeared else where.

Diversity is what makes life great, diversity of political thought gives us great places like this backroom where ultimately competing views brings us closer to the truth than a single monolithic political view. Such diversity in language brings its benefits as well, there is a character or perhaps a spirit embedded in Irish that I as a native English speaker lose out on, and I do not want a world where everyone else lacks that spirit as well, anymore than I want a world of all atheists or of all conservatives.

[Kralizec]

Language is not so simple. There are fields of science that study how the structure of your native language (and therefore your inner dialogue) affect the way you think, behave, reason, and so forth. It will always diverge based on local reasons that can't be "legislated" if you will.

In many ways, the language you grow up with shapes the way you think. Not all languages are structured the same, so when you make statements however mundane in German, your brain is processing the information in a different way than someone saying the same thing in English, or Latin or Irish or Indonesian. There are words with meanings that do not have a comparable word in other languages, feelings and abstract notions that have arisen in certain cultures that have not appeared else where.

That’s the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis. It’s actually quite controversial whether your language actually restrains your way of thinking, compared to others.

If it has any truth at all, it would probably be only a minor influence on behaviour. Nothing quite as dramatic as, say, “Russians have no word for freedom, therefore…” like president Reagan would have you had believe (and yes, he did say that – although as usual, you’ve got to wonder whether he was entirely serious)