The Palace [Concluded]

[TinCow]

His biased cases on obvious non-scum, that ended up lynching at least one of them, you mean?

Exaggerate much? I have made exactly one case this entire game, that against GH. If anyone's case is biased, it appears to be yours. How exactly do you know that GH was non-scum anyway? As far as I can tell, there's no information in the write-ups to let us know whether a lynch has been successful or not.

[edse]

Exaggerate much? I have made exactly one case this entire game, that against GH. If anyone's case is biased, it appears to be yours. How exactly do you know that GH was non-scum anyway? As far as I can tell, there's no information in the write-ups to let us know whether a lynch has been successful or not.

Don't worry, you have my support in case there is a tie.

Vote: Xenoneb

[Arjos]

I have made exactly one case this entire game, that against GH.

That and all the contrite reasoning with BSmith and Ishmael...
Since you said time to get serious, all you have done, has been distracting...

[Riedquat]

I can say I coincidently think like Darth F and/or I also can say as a resumed version of my thinking... blehh! I will be generous and say both!

I don't see Tincow being scummy, but if he is in the eyes of others I'd say I prefer a scummy Tincow, talking as he is, than the rest of town, silent and boring as they are, me included of course!

Oh! And Blehh!

Don't worry, you have my support in case there is a tie.

Vote: Xenoneb

And what do you plan to do? unvote xeno?

Vote: Xenoneb

[TinCow]

That and all the contrite reasoning with BSmith and Ishmael...
Since you said time to get serious, all you have done, has been distracting...

Again, a lot of exaggeration. I have made exactly one post with any reasoning about Ishmael and BSmith. That post was essentially a response to 'khaan's request to have TheFlax lynched, it was simply pointing out an argument that had already been advanced by GH. You seem rather agitated by my relatively minimal contributions to this game, why is that exactly? And please, do explain how you know that GH is "obvious non-scum."

[Makrell]

Vote: Xenoeb

Lurkers beware

[Arjos]

That post was essentially a response to 'khaan's request to have TheFlax lynched, it was simply pointing out an argument that had already been advanced by GH.

That is textbook mafia: contorting or pushing town's arguments, to increase credibility and ride the tide for wagons...
In our case it made two of them, tying, imo none of the two were mafia (looking at their voting)...

[TinCow]

That is textbook mafia: contorting or pushing town's arguments, to increase credibility and ride the tide for wagons...
In our case it made two of them, tying, imo none of the two were mafia (looking at their voting)...

You still haven't explained why you said that GH was "obvious non-scum." Obvious is a very strong word and implies a level of certainty that is highly unusual in mafia, particularly in a classic-style game like this one. What was it about GH that made him so obviously not scum?

[Visor]

The second/third guy who voted for Xeno should be lynched.

Dunno who that is, but this is a bad lynch.

[TheFlax]

The second/third guy who voted for Xeno should be lynched.

Dunno who that is, but this is a bad lynch.

Second is edse who is replacing Cornelius, so no.

Apart from that, why couldn't you be bothered to take a few more moments to check for yourself? Its not like these day phases are overflowing with posts.

[Arjos]

You still haven't explained why you said that GH was "obvious non-scum."

Because I never did XD

I was speaking of Ishmael and by the extension the Ishmael-BSmith duo, that you sidelined on that ridiculous case and pushed it forward, influencing town...

[TinCow]

Because I never did XD

I was speaking of Ishmael and by the extension the Ishmael-BSmith duo, that you sidelined on that ridiculous case and pushed it forward, influencing town...

Ok then, why are Ishmael and BSmith "obvious non-scum"?

[Arjos]

BSmith as I said was a fifth voter on a wagon, that's just unnecessary for any mafia...

Ishmael, iirc he broke at first a tie on Xeno, in which case both are mafia and soon both goners...
Otherwise he was just a townie voting however he felt like...

Regardless your vote was on BSmith, so if Ishmael is scum, then you are very likely to be the 3rd one (not voting yet), since the 2nd (Xeno) is about to meet a bus on his face, desperately trying to get something out of this conversation...

On the same boat, I see Darth Feather, coasting around and quoting other players with the mafia-like "I agree with him and will vote like him" bla bla bla...

[TinCow]

BSmith as I said was a fifth voter on a wagon, that's just unnecessary for any mafia...

Pardon if this question is redundant, but I want to make sure I clearly understand you. You're saying the reason BSmith is "obviously non-scum" is because he was the fifth person to vote for GH?

Ishmael, iirc he broke at first a tie on Xeno, in which case both are mafia and soon both goners...
Otherwise he was just a townie voting however he felt like...

I'd like some clarification here. You appear to be saying that there are two possible scenarios for Ishmael. First, he and Xeno are both scum. Second, Ishmael is a townie. Why is there no scenario in which Ismael is scum but Xeno is not? Also, you just gave a scenario in which Ishmael could be scum. Why then would you call him "obviously non-scum"?

Regardless your vote was on BSmith, so if Ishmael is scum, then you are very likely to be the 3rd one (not voting yet), since the 2nd (Xeno) is about to meet a bus on his face, desperately trying to get something out of this conversation...

Ok then, so your theory is that now Ishmael, Xeno, and I are all a scum team? How would that work if Ishmael is "obviously non-scum"?

[Arjos]

Being the fifth, all it did was giving him spotlight...
Mafia loves that right? What would any mafia gain by voting a dead man walking?

He voted with like 20 mins left on the clock, there's just no logic behind it, other than a busy man having the decency to show up...

Ishmael, all that can be gained from his votes, was that he broke the tie, putting GH in the lead...
Should he turn up mafia, then Xeno has to be, because again why in the world would any mafia member break a tie and get attention?

In overall, I'd say BSmith can't be mafia, if Ishmael is (unlikely as it is imo), then GH isn't either...

[TinCow]

Being the fifth, all it did was giving him spotlight...
Mafia loves that right? What would any mafia gain by voting a dead man walking?

He voted with like 20 mins left on the clock, there's just no logic behind it, other than a busy man having the decency to show up...

Ishmael, all that can be gained from his votes, was that he broke the tie, putting GH in the lead...
Should he turn up mafia, then Xeno has to be, because again why in the world would any mafia member break a tie and get attention?

In overall, I'd say BSmith can't be mafia, if Ishmael is (unlikely as it is imo), then GH isn't either...

So, what you're saying is that both of them are obviously non-scum because they've drawn attention to themselves. Mafia don't like attention, so therefore they cannot be mafia. Am I understanding that correctly?

[Riedquat]

The second/third guy who voted for Xeno should be lynched.

Dunno who that is, but this is a bad lynch.

Third, would be me... I voted for him yesterday too for what is worth, why is a bad lynch? Is he participating in any way? No. Good lynch then, or at least, better than Tincow, imo.

[Arjos]

It's not because they did it, it's how they did it...

There's no incentive for the mafia to do it (except in Ishmael's case, to save Xeno)...
Now that I look at the time, Ishmael did it with an hour left, that's very bad, I'd say it's back to 50/50, him being scum...
Although with certain time zones, I know these games' deadlines can make it harder...

If you can believe that the mafia, knowing what they know, seeing other townies tied, decided to break the tie or to pile votes; well send me a postcard from your planet and I'll be sure to visit someday XD

[TinCow]

It's not because they did it, it's how they did it...

There's no incentive for the mafia to do it (except in Ishmael's case, to save Xeno)...
Now that I look at the time, Ishmael did it with an hour left, that's very bad, I'd say it's back to 50/50, him being scum...
Although with certain time zones, I know these games' deadlines can make it harder...

If you can believe that the mafia, knowing what they know, seeing other townies tied, decided to break the tie or to pile votes; well send me a postcard from your planet and I'll be sure to visit someday XD

I think it depends on the person. Some players have no issues with drawing attention to themselves while mafia; I would fully expect mafia-ATPG or mafia-Reenk to break ties without any hesitation. I don't know Ishmael's style well enough to make that kind of a call in his case.

My issue at the moment remains your use of "obvious non-scum." As has probably been clear, I've had visions of PIS dancing in my head ever since you said it. I've held off on voting for you for that reason because you've been willing to answer my questions, which is something I respect even if I your answers make me want to post the stare smiley. The fact remains though that you did say that, and then continued to express support for the statement. Setting aside Ishmael, who you've apparently had something of sudden a change of heart on and are now no longer sure about much of anything, that still leaves BSmith. BSmith piled onto a bandwagon that had a lot of steam at the last minute. While the timing may be in his favor and his reason for voting for GH met my personal approval, it's still a major reach to say he's "obvious non-scum." If it's so obvious, why did four people vote for him the following day, one of which has since been killed and thus was likely 'non-scum'? Was GH's argument about him really that poor? If so, do you think GH was scum? If not, how can there be a good argument against a someone who is obviously non-scum?

[Arjos]

Ahahahahah, well obvious to me, I don't expect my view to be the absolute rule lol
What a terrible world, would that make XD

GH's reason was the simpliest thing: they voted me the last...
Which, imo, is something very townie like...

But as I said, by looking at the time (of BSmith I was sure, Ishmael I just noticed), there's ground to say BSmith is off the hook...
As for Pizza and Reenk, I completely agree, I've been saying all of this, because I don't see any of the previous pair doing it...

Well, likely I've rationalized your position to fit the rest...
But to be frank, the optimist in me would love for Ishmael to be scum, but the realist in me doesn't believe that we were that lucky :P

So the general feeling I'm getting is a sleepy town, with little going on, settling for reading the awesome write-ups...
With at least one mafia active, helping with smoke screen, that's why (coupled with the "Ishmael if" scenario) I'm inclined to vote for you...

Any other impulsive townie, in your position would've voted for me way back...
But that just makes you one of the good ones ^^

I can switch to Xeno in any moment, should it be needed...
If you aren't scum and all the mafia has been lurking, then honestly, what's the point? lol

[TinCow]

So the general feeling I'm getting is a sleepy town, with little going on, settling for reading the awesome write-ups...
With at least one mafia active, helping with smoke screen, that's why (coupled with the "Ishmael if" scenario) I'm inclined to vote for you...

On this, I agree with you.

Honestly though, I don't like the Xeno lynch. He strikes me as an actual lurker, not a fake one. Clearly we've got at least one mafioso who's sufficiently active to get orders in on time every night, if nothing else. He has a grand total of one post since this game started. In that post he said he wasn't aware the game had started. He said that just before Andres replaced two players, which is consistent with him getting a 'nudge PM' from Andres at around that time, thus making him go active. In addition, that's not an excuse I think a mafioso would give because all of us got a PM from Andres saying the game was starting. Any mafioso who's been able to get orders in every night is going to be paying sufficient attention to know that PM was sent out. The only reason to say you're unaware that the game had started after having received a PM saying the game had started was if you're actually a legit lurker who's flaking out on the game. Xeno also hasn't posted anywhere else on the Org since the time he made that post. The only other post he's made since the 19th was a congrats post in the Chemistry game, made 3 minutes after his post in here. That's consistent with someone who's been AWOL coming in to check on his games, responding to an Andres' nudge PM and then posting in another game he was participating in. Since then he doesn't even appear to have been on the Org, let alone around to submit orders. That's not to say he couldn't be mafia; he certainly could. However, we can clearly tell that at least one mafioso is active enough to get orders in, so that's a better place to start looking than someone who looks like a legit lurker.

So, I'd like to propose an alternative.

Vote: ACIN

Acts aloof early on, giving himself an immediate alibi for not posting. He then puts a lot of effort into intentional off-topic posts and continues them at length to the point of eye-rolling. Gets called on this by 'khaan and ATPG on Day 3. Reacts by immediately voting for the next closest lynch option (me) and acts aloof multiple times. He is then saved from the lynch by the GH bandwagon... and goes completely silent in this game. He's made no posts in this thread for the last 5 days, but he's been posting on the Org on all previous days, indicating that he's on the forum and fully capable of reading the thread and submitting orders. Thus, ACIN appears to be a 'fake' lurker, as contrasted with Xeno's 'legit' lurker.

[GeneralHankerchief]

You still haven't explained why you said that GH was "obvious non-scum." Obvious is a very strong word and implies a level of certainty that is highly unusual in mafia, particularly in a classic-style game like this one. What was it about GH that made him so obviously not scum?

Honestly yeah, I was pretty scummy.

[Csargo]

It's a shame that one of the leaders of discussion in this game is also one of the vote leaders at this point. I don't think lynching him will be beneficial in any way.

Vote: Makrell

He's been doing the same thing I've been doing. That's pretty scummy imho.

[BSmith]

He voted with like 20 mins left on the clock, there's just no logic behind it, other than a busy man having the decency to show up...

To add my two cents on the topic, this is exactly right. As I pointed out earlier in the thread, If I were scum I’d be paying much closer attention to the thread and would not do something that would put undue pressure on me. Given the number of lurkers/non-voters I probably wouldn't have voted at all and stayed hiding in the crowd.

I’d also like to point out that Arjos and I have been on quite a few teams together lately, so he likely has some more insight to my play style (both as scum and as town) than average.

I dislike games without reveals on death. Especially when I am vanilla. Thread analysis is way harder, and building reliable cases on people is almost impossible. For all we know GH was scum and this whole conversation is moot. But we don’t so here we are.

I agree with Xeno likely being a true lurker, and probably a waste of a lynch. If he continues he will be replaced or WOG’d. Much better to lynch someone else for now, and I do see merit to TinCow’s case on ACIN. It’s not the strongest case, but with no reveals it will have to do.

vote: ACIN

[TheFlax]

Vote: Visorslash

[TheFlax]

Actually, if I haven't miscounted, its a tie between Xenoneb and ACIN. Since I'd rather see the latter be lynched: Unvote, Vote: ACIN

[White_eyes:D]

He's been doing the same thing I've been doing. That's pretty scummy imho.

Yeah....and my vote on you before was not justified when even you think you act scummy?

If you and TinCow are scum, I will kick myself for ever letting you both get a pass of my scum sense on you two.(Which is going red alert BTW)

[LazyMcCrow]

Yeah....and my vote on you before was not justified when even you think you act scummy?

If you and TinCow are scum, I will kick myself for ever letting you both get a pass of my scum sense on you two.(Which is going red alert BTW)

I dont think you're far wrong White Eyes. That comment by Csargo seems too scummy to be true, but maybe that's because its true. But mainly: TinCows earlier rant rattled my cage a bit - I don't know about all the ins and outs, but I wouldn't bet against TinCow flipping Scum in this one.

[a completely inoffensive name]

On this, I agree with you.

Honestly though, I don't like the Xeno lynch. He strikes me as an actual lurker, not a fake one. Clearly we've got at least one mafioso who's sufficiently active to get orders in on time every night, if nothing else. He has a grand total of one post since this game started. In that post he said he wasn't aware the game had started. He said that just before Andres replaced two players, which is consistent with him getting a 'nudge PM' from Andres at around that time, thus making him go active. In addition, that's not an excuse I think a mafioso would give because all of us got a PM from Andres saying the game was starting. Any mafioso who's been able to get orders in every night is going to be paying sufficient attention to know that PM was sent out. The only reason to say you're unaware that the game had started after having received a PM saying the game had started was if you're actually a legit lurker who's flaking out on the game. Xeno also hasn't posted anywhere else on the Org since the time he made that post. The only other post he's made since the 19th was a congrats post in the Chemistry game, made 3 minutes after his post in here. That's consistent with someone who's been AWOL coming in to check on his games, responding to an Andres' nudge PM and then posting in another game he was participating in. Since then he doesn't even appear to have been on the Org, let alone around to submit orders. That's not to say he couldn't be mafia; he certainly could. However, we can clearly tell that at least one mafioso is active enough to get orders in, so that's a better place to start looking than someone who looks like a legit lurker.

So, I'd like to propose an alternative.

Vote: ACIN

Acts aloof early on, giving himself an immediate alibi for not posting. He then puts a lot of effort into intentional off-topic posts and continues them at length to the point of eye-rolling. Gets called on this by 'khaan and ATPG on Day 3. Reacts by immediately voting for the next closest lynch option (me) and acts aloof multiple times. He is then saved from the lynch by the GH bandwagon... and goes completely silent in this game. He's made no posts in this thread for the last 5 days, but he's been posting on the Org on all previous days, indicating that he's on the forum and fully capable of reading the thread and submitting orders. Thus, ACIN appears to be a 'fake' lurker, as contrasted with Xeno's 'legit' lurker.

I'm a villager. Don't know how to convince you otherwise. When I get involved in a game whether I am mafia or powerless townie, I always put attention on myself. Most of the time I try to make vigilante groups, obviously I haven't done that according to the write ups.

If you want to kill a lurker who isn't really a lurker, try Vote: Darth Feather
This dude has been voting every single day and has said nothing in thread substantial. He bases his first two votes off of random.org. Then goes on to make 5 pointless filler posts that contribute nothing but give him plausible deniability.

Gems such as "This makes sense. vote: Ishmael". or when he voted for Xenoneb based entirely off of something Monty said, then goes on to vote for Ishmael with the previous statement shown then switches back to Xenoneb for no reason whatsoever. Lame mafia is lame.

[Jarema]

Boo! Poor showing killing off one of the more active players.

if this post is not scummy, I do not know what is.
vote: TinCow

TBH, mafia killing active players in this game may help us. How? They are confirmed innocents now, so we can analyze their post from this point of view. We do not have such certainty with lynched ones.