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Thread: Which of the elite Hellenic Infantry is the best?

  1. #1

    Default Which of the elite Hellenic Infantry is the best?

    Hey guys,

    Playing the Seleucids at the moment and cheating slightly by giving my faction leader the "impressed by Cats" trait I've got all the Elite units for Seleucids already at 250ish BC.

    Just wondering though which units is the best out of the 3 Elite Infantry units available to the Seleucids?

    1. Thorakitai Agematos Basilikou (Hellenic Elite Spearmen) - Javilins, stupidly heavy armour, but no sword or AP!
    2. Hypaspistai (Hellenistic Royal Guard) - Nice swords + spears! Very versatile I think in that sense, no javilins!
    3. Peltastai Makedonikoi (Hellenistic Elite Infantry) - Javilins, swords but not as great as the Hypaspistai swords + no spear though!

    So looking at that I suppose which is "best" would depend on what situation you are in.

    Thorakitai Agematos Basilikou it would seem are a hard core defensive unit. Spear armed with the highest armour value in the game for an infantry unit (please correct me if I'm wrong). The kind of unit you would want if there the last unit left in your town square during a siege! As for being assault infantry... with no sword or AP not sure they can fill that role very well. On a side note they do look awesome!

    Hypaspistai I suppose these guys get my vote as they are the most versitile, they can effectively fill a defensive role + assault with there swords + spears. They don't carry javilins but thats only a minor issue I feel.

    Peltastai Makedonikoi these are the cheapest of the 3. Same defense wise as the Hypaspistai (less armour but more defense skill), but lacking spears. So there not for holding positions or fending against cavalry but as described there for assaulting places... although not as effectively as Hypaspistai as there swords have higher lethality!

    So all in all as I've mentioned above I feel the Hypaspistai to be the best "all round unit". It is a shame the Thorakitai Agematos Basilikou I feel don't fill there role as the best assualt infantry available to the Seleucid kings purely due to there lack of sword or AP. However wether this is intentional simply to stop them being hidiously over powered?

    Any how what is your guys opinions on my break down? Any other points of view?

    Cheers

  2. #2

    Default Re: Which of the elite Hellenic Infantry is the best?

    I think you already covered all main points quite well.

    There are some "extra-Features" to the three of them that you might want to consider:
    TAB's armor is soo high that they cannot* be killed by most archers, even when fireing from behind. To kill these guys High attack or AP weapons are absolutely necessary as opposed to just jolly usefull. They are neither particulary speedy or the like but still a charge from these guys is a force to be reckoned with, mainly because you can just leave them there and forget about them, plus they have javelins. If you have the cash and don't go for realistic army compositions, have one in every army.
    In theory Hypaspists are outstanding, in reality however they suffer from a RTW engine problem, two melee weapons. Sometimes it works sometimes it does not, I'd advise you to costombattle with them a few times to get a feeling for their weaponry. Sometimes they take their swords and attack the Cataphracts and sometimes they use spears against lowly levy troops. Correct weapon usage makes the difference between a glorious victory and loosing your most expensive infantry to troops they actually counter.
    Peltmaks... opinions on them vary quite a lot, some call them overpriced crap, others battle winners. They take some more work to find a suitable spot. good flankers.

    at the end of the day I'd still go with eastern/cappadokian axemen^^ they are much easier to attain and a lot cheeper. When you can draw the arrows to the TABs or the front of your phalanx, you're good.

    *you might get one or two when you empty your quivers.
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  3. #3

    Default Re: Which of the elite Hellenic Infantry is the best?

    thorokitai is always my pick when they are agematos even better but think of it this way

    thorokitai in the center they can stop almost everything hypa for protecting the flanks and peltmak for the flanking and ofc the companions to hit them in the rear

    in defense pelmak are amazing on walls both for attack and for defense they are the elite assault infantry per excellence

    ofc that playing with the seulekids with their phallanxs thorokitai seem the less usefull and in reality is the biggest disapointment when playing with the makedonians but they are amazing when well used

    just remember hellenistic powers use anvil and hammer never forget the hammer that are the cavalry particulary when using the seulekids wich are known for their catraphacts (if you got the agematos you got the catraphacts also)

    also in antiocheia you can recruit those cretins altough being the seulekids you also have acess to amazing persian archers so you can build the most varied armies in the world with anything you´ll ever need including steppe armies thanks to steppe generals catraphacts dahe riders and so forth

    and ofc the elephantoi wich are deal makers or deal breakers your pick

    me personally i prefer the epirotes and the makedonians altough the lack of the famous thorokitai in the makedonian armies is a sure downer

  4. #4

    Default Re: Which of the elite Hellenic Infantry is the best?

    Quote Originally Posted by moonburn View Post

    me personally i prefer the epirotes and the makedonians altough the lack of the famous thorokitai in the makedonian armies is a sure downer
    Epirote roster is better in general (gets thorakitai and elephants). However, the macedonian get one unit that the epirotes don't which is the reformed phalanx. Not only is it a great unit, but its recruitment aoe is insane. You can recruit them in like syracuse, kyrene and the bosphorus i think which is really helpful.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Which of the elite Hellenic Infantry is the best?

    Quote Originally Posted by Conan View Post

    Thorakitai Agematos Basilikou it would seem are a hard core defensive unit. Spear armed with the highest armour value in the game for an infantry unit (please correct me if I'm wrong). The kind of unit you would want if there the last unit left in your town square during a siege! As for being assault infantry... with no sword or AP not sure they can fill that role very well. On a side note they do look awesome!

    Hypaspistai I suppose these guys get my vote as they are the most versitile, they can effectively fill a defensive role + assault with there swords + spears. They don't carry javilins but thats only a minor issue I feel.

    Peltastai Makedonikoi these are the cheapest of the 3. Same defense wise as the Hypaspistai (less armour but more defense skill), but lacking spears. So there not for holding positions or fending against cavalry but as described there for assaulting places... although not as effectively as Hypaspistai as there swords have higher lethality!

    Cheers
    My favourite of the three are the hypaspistai since they are killing machines and just don't die.

    For pelt maks ive found that they do poorly against any spear armed unit (maybe a trait of all short swordsmen?)

    and ive found TABs are good offensively as well as defensively. The unit description says that they have a metal spear so maybe that has something to do with it. However I found them to be slow so I prefer hypaspisatai.

  6. #6
    COYATOYPIKC Senior Member Flatout Minigame Champion Arjos's Avatar
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    Default Re: Which of the elite Hellenic Infantry is the best?

    You are playing as the Arche, if your economy doesn't support all of those units, in more than one army, then you are doing it terribly wrong :P

    Id est, recruit all of them and use them where they perform best: versatile armies are seleucid armies ^^

  7. #7

    Default Re: Which of the elite Hellenic Infantry is the best?

    A further point in favor of TABs is that they fit in perfectly besides Thorakitai, thus make a good elite core of a "Imitation legionary"- army, something many people consider the only way a late selucid army can go.
    When I got several diffent units to choose from(and have the cash) I normally train several different armies. For Selucids this could mean the FL has an army of mixed pikemen Hypaspists, and hetairoi, while the Faction heir runs around with a bunch of Thorakitai, Thureophoroi, TABs and Cataphracts.
    As an example I usually have my Spartan FMs lead an army of classical hoplites, with appropriate support while my Athenian FMs lead armies of Reformed hoplites, thureophoroi and the like. Normally the latter fail miserably and chance their army composition^^
    "Who fights can lose, who doesn't fight has already lost."
    - Pyrrhus of Epirus

    "Durch diese hohle Gasse muss er kommen..."
    - Leonidas of Sparta

    "People called Romanes they go the House"
    - Alaric the Visigoth

  8. #8
    ΤΑΞΙΑΡΧΟΣ Member kdrakak's Avatar
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    Default Re: Which of the elite Hellenic Infantry is the best?

    I love them all... By the time you get to have them in the AS campaign you probably already can pretty much do anything you want so... IMO they are there for the flavor.
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  9. #9

    Default Re: Which of the elite Hellenic Infantry is the best?

    Quote Originally Posted by kdrakak View Post
    I love them all... By the time you get to have them in the AS campaign you probably already can pretty much do anything you want so... IMO they are there for the flavor.
    this is so true, unlike most other factions, the seleucid campaign is one where you never stop fighting and you dont have time to develop those 15 turn barracks until your victory conditions are met.

    Other factions like carthage or Epirus can conquer the area around them and then turtle up but not the seleucids

  10. #10
    Villiage Idiot Member antisocialmunky's Avatar
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    Default Re: Which of the elite Hellenic Infantry is the best?

    A mob of classical hoplites because they are ridiculously imbalanced for their price.
    Fighting isn't about winning, it's about depriving your enemy of all options except to lose.



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  11. #11

    Default Re: Which of the elite Hellenic Infantry is the best?

    Quote Originally Posted by seleucid empire View Post
    this is so true, unlike most other factions, the seleucid campaign is one where you never stop fighting and you dont have time to develop those 15 turn barracks until your victory conditions are met.

    Other factions like carthage or Epirus can conquer the area around them and then turtle up but not the seleucids
    I have to disagree here. In my Seleucid campaign (VH/M) I'm nicely bottled up behind four "Gateways" (my term for them) : Hierosolyma in the South, Pergamon/Nikaia in the West, Ekbatana / Susa in the East, and the Northern border is still being constructed but will eventually revolve around Kotais and the province North of Hayasdan. Perhaps this would be less possible at a higher battle difficulty.

    As an aside on VH campaign difficulty AS doesn't seem too difficult as long as you can contain the Ptolemaioi rather quickly. And I'm also quite disappointed with the Parthians. Stacks of Pantodapoi aren't what I have in mind when I think of their armies.

  12. #12
    EBII Hod Carrier Member QuintusSertorius's Avatar
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    Default Re: Which of the elite Hellenic Infantry is the best?

    Quote Originally Posted by antisocialmunky View Post
    A mob of classical hoplites because they are ridiculously imbalanced for their price.
    Also hugely available as mercenaries, too.
    It began on seven hills - an EB 1.1 Romani AAR with historical house-rules (now ceased)
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  13. #13

    Default Re: Which of the elite Hellenic Infantry is the best?

    Quote Originally Posted by antisocialmunky View Post
    A mob of classical hoplites because they are ridiculously imbalanced for their price.
    Agreed.

    Which is better:

    a. 5 elite units of infantry that are outnumbered 3-1 and will be outflanked easily
    b. 10 regular units of infantry that are outnumbered only 1.5 to 1 and will not be outflanked easily because they occupy a front line twice as wide as the elites

    I'd go for b. every time. Especially with the Hellenic factions. Quality is nice, but not as important as quantity.

  14. #14
    Unbowed Unbent Unbroken Member Lazy O's Avatar
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    Default Re: Which of the elite Hellenic Infantry is the best?

    The veiled tanks wearing mail armor for the Seleukids.


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  15. #15

    Default Re: Which of the elite Hellenic Infantry is the best?

    AI loves to flank, no matter how long your main line might be ( and if it outnumbers you, it can do so easily ) and i doubt that outnumbered, and encircled levies would do better then elite troops.
    You can also always mod the stats; if the haploi seem unbalanced, then lower their stats, or up their costs?
    Concerning the long barack building times: simply use "process_cq" and get yourself that flavour ( or just play slow, and don´t rush the retarded AI ^^ )
    Since i´ve modded my EDU it would be not really comparable to the vanilla EB, but from what i remember, i liked the GC Thorakitai Hoplitai´s looking, and their ap swords.
    - 10 mov. points :P

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