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Thread: Amazons: Total War 6.0 & 7.0, Archaeological and Anthropological References

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    Amazon Total War Admin Member parthian shot's Avatar
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    Default Amazons: Total War 6.0 & 7.0, Archaeological and Anthropological References

    As you folks might have already know, the Amazon: Total War - Reignited mod (6.0 series) has four Amazon Factions. The mod is developed after Subrosa's excellent theme, ie adding four factions of Amazons to the RTW game, plus introducing the Sarmatian from RTW/BI expansion pack. The 7.0 release retain the same configuration and added more features.

    The Amazons: Total War - Recalesced (7.0 series) has four Pseudo-Amazon factions which can become Amazon-like if correct cultural path is taken and their Quest(s) are fulfilled. These factions are

    - Armenia (or Armens in the mod, who absorbed the Kingdom of Mittani, the ancient horse breeding and horse trading people in Asia Minor),
    - Carthage (because Queen Dido, according to the story, was once a priestess in the Amazon Theocracy Sisterhood)
    - Sarmatian (because of their lineage to the Amazons)
    - Far Eastern Celts (because of their recent near-annihilation at the hands of the Huns, and therefore their women's role in the army).

    To help to gain more background understanding of Amazon: Total War mods, I thought I add the cultural, archaeological, as well as anthropological stories/references to this forum, so the players can have better perspective of factions playing out in the game.

    The Amazon Factions in Amazons:Total War are

    1. Geothe Amazonia
    2. Thermodon Amazonia
    3. Thyssagetae, or Thyssa
    4. Libyan Amazon

    The Neo-Amazon Factions are

    1. Far Eastern Celt [7.0 Series only]
    2. Armenia
    3. Sarmatian
    4. Carthaginians

    I. Geothe Amazon

    Up to the 400BC, the Geothe (pronounced "Jia-Zee", ancient form of Jyazii) Amazons were the guardians of the Caucasus Gate for fifteen centuries. They claim to be the original Amazon Nation from which all other branches of Amazons originated. However, for reasons unknown, at around 400BC they are being forced out of their homeland in the Caucasus Mountains, first migrated to the western shore of the Caspian Sea, and later settled in the region east of the Azov Sea. The word Geothe, which literally translates to 'from steppes', are the tribal name of the people and the name 'Amazon', which is the sacred name derived from the river Sinus Amazenus, where Priestess Camilla is said to be hurled across by her father when she was an infant.

    According to Virgil (Aeneid, Books VII and XI), Camilla's father, Metabus, was fleeing from his enemies carrying the infant Camilla when he encountered the Amisenus (Amazenus) River. He fastened the baby to his javelin, then dedicated the baby girl to the Goddess Innana (the equivalent of Diana or Artemis in the Greco-Roman world), and hurled the javelin with the baby across the river. He then swam to the opposite bank, where he rejoined Camilla. True to the oath, Camilla grew up to become a great warrior and a renowned huntress, stayed to be a maiden her entire life to serve the Goddess despite advances from many suitors. She led an army of maidens which started the Camilla sect of the Artemis cult. The Geothe warriors took great pride to be called the Amazons because of their most revered heroine from the River Sinus Amazenus. To the Geothe as well as all the Amazonians, the word Amazon signifies the oath sworn by Camilla's father, an oath that dedicates a maiden to the Goddess to become a warrior and protector of her community or her friends in need. Such females know not what hearth chores are like, but are more at ease with archery, javelins, close-quarter combat, and equestrianism. Virgil recorded the legend of Camilla as the official court scribe at Rome in the year Octavian ascended to become Augustus, the first Emperor of Roman Emipire. Virgil purposely made Camilla a Volscian maiden in his writing to flatter the new Emperor (Volcia in Italia being Octavian's birth place), and to inspire his fellow Romans, but every reader of his time who has any sense of geography knows that the river Sinus Amazenus Virgil talked about is located not in Italia, but near Sinope in Asia Minor, between the border of Aram (Armenia) and Themiskyran Amazonia.

    Because most horses of their time are only 12 hands tall (48 inches or 120cm), really glorified ponies in real life, the limitation of smaller horses made women the ideal cavalry soldiers. Being more petite and lighter in weight, they can travel farther and faster with the pony-size horses. Even though their number is never great, their often small sized mobile army can strike their enemy where they least expected, and can destroy much larger forces because of their advantage in mobility and long range fire power of their missiles.

    In addition to possessing the best women cavalry, the Geothe Amazons also enjoyed a special relationship with the Kingdom of Mittani, both factions being the founding members of Melanchlaenae, (or the Black Coat Society), and therefore has advanced knowledge of horse breeding. The Mittani people pioneered the horse breeding technique where they successfully bred horse to 15-17 hands tall. Although Mittani traders sold gelded horses in great numbers to their neighbors, the true secret of breeding is only known to a few factions, such as the Aramites (Armenian) who eventually absorbed the Mittani people, Pre-Alexander Egypt, and the Geothe Amazons.

    The Geothe's other fortes are their education and secret library system, the Geothe Priestess Society usually gathered their local populace and train their womenfolks to defend their community from marauding adventuring menfolks, the likes of Aeneas, Ulysses, Hercules, and Jason, ie the so-called Quest Heroes. These marauders almost always plundered, stole, raped, and murdered their way through their travel, leaving matriarchal communities in destitute through such raids. So the Sisterhood inspired their pupils with the deeds of heroines such as Camilla's, or that of the Amazon Queen Panthesilea, so these womenfolks can be organized to better defend their communities.

    This also has the benefit of solidifying the Priesthood's support base, and to imbue the peasant women with such fighting spirit so as to create potential recruits for the Priesthood novitiates. The Priestess Sisterhood also educated their local womenfolks on crops, animal husbandry, and basic form of hunting or fighting skills, such as stone throwing, javelin throwing, and some in archery. The priestess sisterhood are a collection of maidens who are located in various geographical regions, most are well versed in horse riding, horse archery, hand to hand combat with daggers, axes, spears, and swords, as well as the secret of the sacred fire. They rely their means of communication mainly on the horse riders to be able to cover long distance, from one Amazon community to the next, all through relay message dispatchers on horseback. The Sisterhood hold secret archive only accessible by the members of the Priesthood, and in its archive contains all the dispatches between the Amazon Communities. Such messages relating news of potential threats, new technology and innovation of every kind.

    Like the later Hungarian and Magyar cavalry, the Geothe Amazon also train their horses to lie down on th battlefield, this allows them to conceal some of their cavalry units on the battlefield.

    II. Thermodon Amazonia

    These are the most well known Amazons to the Greeks and the Romans. These are the colonies of the Amazons migrated from the Caucasus Mountains. Their establishment in the Asia Minor guarded the incursion of Medes, and later the Persians from overpowering the Western Asia Minor. The Persian rulers only required the token of submission in the forms of earth and water, they would then send a representative of the King, known as the Setrap to rule the region. As long as the tax is paid and the levy called, the Setrap pretty much let the people do what they want. Unknown to most of the men-societies, the Amazons heavily infiltrated the Persian and Median Setrapies, to such an extent that they are the arbitrator of politics in the region most of the time. The early beginning of the Carian League, for example, is the classical case, where the league formed its own governing body, with the consent of the Setrap. It was so well established, that later on even the Greeks and the Roman would grudgingly allow the league to exist, even allowed their officiation in 168BC. The league in various forms lasted until the the early days of the Byzantine Empire. For people who may not know, the U.S. Consitition is, in many ways, based on the Carian League Bylaws. It is under these guises the matriarchal societies continue its untangible influence on the men-societies through-out the Asia-Minor.

    III. Thyssa Amazons

    Caucasus Albania is a term describes an ancient geographical domain around the Caucasus Gate by the Caspian Sea. This is not to be confused with the Albania in southern Europe, but it refers to the very border region between Europe and Asia. The Albani Amazons were the Amazons of Albania. They lost their homeland to the Geothe Amazon because of the Quarrel of The Guardians. The Albani ancestors were the matriarchal followers of the Aphrodite sect. For fifteen centuries, they and the Geothe, who represented Priestess Sisterhood of the Armtemis/Innana Sect, guarded the Caucasus Gates that protected the Ecumene Europa from the steppe incursions. When the Albani declined into orgiastic and wanton ways, disaster struck, and the Geothe Priesthood took over the control of the Caucasus Gates for the very survival of their own people.

    Henceforth, the Albani Amazon ceased to be their former selves, and become a semi-wondering people whom the Greek scholars referred to as the Thyssagetae. "Thys" means society or people, "Geta" means clan/army, with "geta-i" (Getae) means area ruled by such army, and "Sa-Getae" means White Army Land. The Thyssa Amazon is no longer ruled by their Priestess Caste, but instead a matriarchal hereditary monarchy is established, and their Priestess Sisterhood is replaced by shamans who also fulfill medicinal needs as well as midwife work amongst their people.

    The Thyssa controls important regions which demarcates forest steppe from the steppe, with abundant supplies of wood for fortification, and weapon components such as spear shaft, and arrow shafts. A common misconception is that the nomadic horse archers have abundant supplies of arrows. The truth is, the most horse archers can only afford two or three good arrows on her/his own. Without the wood-lathing technology, straight arrow shaft is painstakingly slow to make. Requires aging (as long as five years), curing, cutting, and trimming. A warped arrow shaft is as good as firewood for the camp, so unlike the spear shaft or javelins, arrow shafts are usually produced from highly developed weapon industry with large scale of processing, quality control, and skillful arrow smithing. And the Thyssa Amazon are one such faction which has both abundance of supply as well as the expertise and the facilities for such undertaking.

    At this point in time, the Thyssa Amazons are in possession of great swath of land. They have built the legendary cities of Gelon and Qabala. Gelon alone, is said to be a wooden walled city thousand times the size of the legendary city of Troy.

    They have mated for some generations now with the local Finnic people, and many have become red haired and even more light color eyed.

    The Thyssa Amazon maintained a proud tradition of mounted women cavalry warrior class. So their cavalry force are highly effective. The equestrian class were required to train and evolved their tactics. The Thyssa were therefore very much aware of the many tactical improvements made by their former rival, the Geothe Amazon. Many of the units are copies of the Geothe warriors. But they have long lost the secrets of the sacred fire and the horse breeding knowledge.
    Being rich in timber and woodcraft also allows them to equip their missile units with extra stores of arrows or javelins.
    The Thyssa Amazon also train their horses to lie down on th battlefield, this allows them to conceal some of their cavalry units on the battlefield.

    Strategically, the Thyssa Amazon have the benefit of being surrounded by squabbling neighbors, many of them are minor factions.

    They also have the advantage that the regions under their control are at the northern edge of the inhabited world, or Europa Ecumene. So there is no worry of threats from all sides.

    Like the Geothe Amazons, the Thyssa possess great knowledge in metal-craft, but their lack of iron resources is a great disadvantage. Only swords or dagger blades, spear tips, and most importantly, the arrowheads or bolt head are made of iron. The Thyssa did not have the knowledge of the beryllium bronze alloy, so their bronze armors are heavier and less effective.

    Their two neighbors, the Scythians and the Sarmatians are constant sources of menace to the Thyssa Amazon. But the worst fear of all, is the Geothe faction who possess knowledge that will end the world the rule of men.

    IV. Libyan Amazon

    From the time immemorial, the Amazon communities stretched from India to North Africa, from the Steppe of Asia to the Adriatic Sea, to the Pyrenees Mountains. It is all matriarchal societies linked together through chains of pony express like messenger system, or through secret outlets in the major sea ports with messages sent using maritime fleet of the Sea People. Bearing the fruit of its labor over the centuries, it become a secret federation of prosperity and cultural enlightenment, despite many conquests claimed by the men-societies, the raiding and the pillaging of the so-call the “Heros” like Jason or Hercules, the Amazon Federation remain mostly hidden to the men-society and only a few in the Secret Sisterhood of Artemis and Aphrodite as well as the leaders of Sisterhood's military caste know the true extent of the vastness as well as the glory of its achievement. But gradually, all these greatness are being eroded by the encroachments of belligerent menfolks like the Assyrians, the Mycenaeans, the Dorian Greeks, the Asiatic Steppe nomads, the Massagetae, the Persians, and then Alexander, and his pretenders, the Diadochi.

    In time of great conflicts, or conquests of men-armies, the Amazon ran to their hidden fortifications they built over the centuries, like hidden city on the Isle of Lemnos, or the temple fortress on the Island of Hespera, the cave world in Caria, the wooden redoubt at Gelon, the riverbank garden at Tartessos, and the list of the places goes on and on. When the entire town or village got massacred or decimated by the men-armies, the refugees in the fortress would then re-emerge to rebuild their homes, and to restore their ways of life. In North Africa, the pattern has gone through similar repetition over the centuries, but all things changed when Queen Dido, who used to be a Priestess of the Amazon Sisters, return to her native home of Tyre with the Sea People and then founded the City of Carthage at the Northern shore of Libya. The land of Libya (the geographical location the Romans later called North Africa) has since forever been divided between the Libyan Amazons and the Carthaginians. And a cooperative coexistence ensued. But Carthage is all for the greed of trading, so instead of remaining hidden in the Amazonian way, it sets itself up in earnest to engage in commerce. And soon Carthage become the most important relay-trade-station for the sea traders in the lucrative trade between the Eastern Mediterranean and Western Mediterranean Seas. No other trading cities in the mid-Mediterranean, such as the Greek colonies in Sicily or southern Italia, is as successful as Carthage. While the Libyan Amazons remained hidden to the prying eye of all the visitors, whether they are traders or spies, both the Greeks and the Romans have become very envious of the Carthaginian wealth. When the Sea People finally squabbled between the Phoenician faction and the Carthaginian faction, the Libyan Amazons once again took refuge in their hidden temple fortress on the Isle of Hespera.

    Unbeknownst to Amazon Libyans, the Athenian Greeks, ever eager to set up a North African Trade Colony with the aim to take over the commercial revenue of the Carthaginians, had eye on the Island for some time now because it would make a perfect Athenian trading colony to compete against the City of Carthage. So while the Amazons take refuge in the temple fortress on the Hespera Island, with all their army away watching for a possible Phoenician invasion, the massive Athenian Greeks Expedition force landed on the Hesperides island and took the Libyan Amazons completely by surprise and the Athenian murdered all the living beings within the walls of the temple fortress, menfolks and the children included. All the priestesses except a handful who are away in the military are murdered and the entire library burnt to the ground. The Libyan Amazons had lost all their cultural roots, all the secret communication code books, the Amazon Stelae, and their the intellectual caste, plus their political leadership in just one fateful day.

    The catastrophic event forever severed the tie between the Libyan Amazons from the rest of the Amazonian Federation. The surviving members and its warriors ran deep into the African continent, and maintained a semblance of community along the edge of the great Sahara Desert. Amongst its military leaders, a junior officer Animone (meaning "Defender who is without fault") rose through the rank and became the leader of its people and the Queen of the Libyan Amazons. The Libyan Amazon had since lost its Priestess Caste and had become a hereditary monarchy ruled by Queen Animone's descendents. Its religions are part Egyptian (in the theology of Amon, the first true monotheismic preaching with which Alexander himself later embraced), part Greek, and part Phoenician.

    Centuries passed, on the year of Alexander's death, Queen Theseis of Libya paid a secret visit to the Temple of Amon at Siwa Oasis. The Oracle of Siwa, as in most oracles through out the Amazon land, was a front-organization with design to turn the Greeks' attention eastwards towards Persia, so as to leave the Libyan Amazons and the Carthaginians in peace. The Amazon Federation agent at the Oasis presented the Queen with the most alarming news, that the secret Amazon code thought long lost at Isle Hesperides during the Athenian raid has re-surfaced, and the Stelae are now being located by the sacred tree in the temple fortress ruin on the island of Hesperides. Those who are in possession of the code and know how to break the code, can amass enough technological advances to dominate the entire world and therefore to end the world of men. So for the past half a century, the Libyan Amazons have been quietly preparing to restore their domain to their former glory and to end the world of the men as we know it.

    In the year of 270BC, the Libyan Amazons are on the run again, with the Numidian, the Iberian, the Carthaginian, as well as the Egyptian hot on their heels. The Libyan must find a new homeland, and then plan its conquest to take back the temple fortress of Hesperides, in the hope that once it has the possession of the Stelae, where the secret code are inscribed, it can establish a relationship with another Amazon faction, it can then break the code and build a Libyan Empire along with a new army the world has never seen.

    January 10th, added Far Eastern Celt background for Amazons Total War 7.0

    V. Far Eastern Celt

    Far East Celts are the Celtic people who lived in the Far East Asia, they are also loosely known as the Tocharians, or Yuezhi by their Chinese Ally in the war against the Huns.
    From 2,000 years past, the Far East Celts had dwelled in the Ting Shan Mountain Range halfway between China and Scythia. In the past fifty years, the Hunnic Empire has forcefully "evicted" them from their ancestral homeland after terrible slaughters, so the Far East Celts have just settled in a region called the Tarim Basin. It is surrounded by Great Gobi Desert in the East and steep mountains in all other three directions.
    The Far East Celts' language and their appearance are every bit as their Western Celtic cousins, being tall with blonde hair and light colored eyes. But in so many ways, the Far East Celts are much more advanced than their western counterpart.
    They are the first people known to have domesticated horses. They also have highly advanced culture and industries.
    But unfortunate to the Far East Celts, none of their technology have been applied to war until the Hunnic aggression, and in many respects, they are perhaps the most peaceful and docile of all 'barbarians'.
    And just as their Hindu neighbors to the south, they would not likely start a war, unless being provoked first, but unlike their Aryan Hindu neighbors in the south, who advocated peace through strength and have established the largest army in the world in the recorded history up to this time to deal with any potential threats. In contrast, the Far East Celts are mostly ill prepared to wage any war. To make the matter worse, after the terrible conflict with the Huns and being forced out of their ancestral homeland, they are now severely deprived of menfolks. So their army is made of mostly women and even girls.
    Like the Western Celts, only taller and heavier, their men can be as tall as 6 foot and 6 inches (195cm) and even their women can reach 6 foot tall (180cm) as well.
    This presents a recruitment disadvantage for their cavalry, because only their most petite women or girl can ride light horses. And the men, however few are left, need to go to war on specially bred heavy horses, and this factor makes their men cavalry prohibitively expensive. Because of their technological advances, however, the Far East Celts are experts at wagon warfare. So their short fall of cavalry is more than made up by the fact that most of their fighting are done using the battle wagons and chariots.
    Being at the crossroad of Asia and Europe, the Far East Celt also has a variety of exotic military units, such as camels riders, and Indian Elephants troops, and so on.

    But a quite unique military unit of their own is the Linked Armor-Clad Cavalry. This is consisted of heavily armored horses linked together by either yoke or chains, 4-20 horses abreast. This is done so the horses will not swerve around the enemy formation during a charge and instead will assault the enemy formation head-on. Even if one of the horses is mortally wound during the onslaught, the momentum of the whole unit can not be stopped, this usually ended up in completely smashing through of the enemy formation they are up against. The linked Armor-Clad Cavalry, often misnomered to be linked cataphract, also has side benefit of requiring only one or two riders per rank (or team) of horses, so as short of manpower as the Far East Celts are, this tactical arrangement fits into their situation perfectly.
    Futher more, such cavalry unit does not require advanced cultural development to be recruited, and as such, they can be deployed early in the campaign.

    Strategy:
    The Far East Celt has finally had a break from the Huns, now being isolated from them by the Great Gobi Desert, and they now called the Tarim Basin their new home. To the south, sheltered by the world's highest mountains, the largest army in the world with 90,000 war elephants is guarding the Indian Subcontinent from anyone who dare to provoke them. In the west, the Massagetaes, once a powerful empire, now became no more than a renegade province of the Seleucids, but they still possess a powerful mobile army. And because of the high mountains to the North and the great desert to the East, the only way for the Far East Celt to expand is to go westward and this can only be done by building up an army powerful enough to overcome the Massagetae army.

    The Far East Celts also need to be mindful of its recruitment methodology. Whereas, recruitment of an entry-level infantry unit in the Western Celt is very cheap, the same unit can cost 6-10 times in the Far East Celt faction due to their shortage of men. The cost of the women units in the Far East Celt army are much more reasonable, so some careful planning is needed to raised an army which can seize territories and be able to hold onto them.
    Last edited by parthian shot; 02-20-2013 at 15:57.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Amazons: Total War 6.0 & 7.0, Archaeological and Anthropological References

    Okay, you quite often mentioned the "petite" shape of these Warrior-Women. Well, I'm not convinced. Take this one Girl of the "Ending-Times" of Amazon culture, that Michael Schulz from Goettingen inspected. She has had the muscles of a today's male Bodybuilder... and with 1,6 meters height she was 10 centimeters taller than the average Greek guy those days. She, riding one of these little horses you discovered would look like Arnold Schwarzenegger, riding a Shetland-Pony ;-)
    If you can't inspect the bones of these Women, a good indicator for big muscles is also the size of the arrowhead-to-shaft-joints. If the holes do only measure about 4 millimeters, it's for a barreled shaft. These shafts are used for 80+ pound Bows, because "normal" Shafts would simply explode before leaving the Bow (happened to me once with my 55 pound Assyrian Bow - wasn't funny). In my Shooting-Club, we only have 2 guys that can handle such amount of power. Both of them look like Hercules (well, one like Hercules who ate too much LOL)

  3. #3
    Amazon Total War Admin Member parthian shot's Avatar
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    Default Re: Amazons: Total War 6.0 & 7.0, Archaeological and Anthropological References

    Quote Originally Posted by -Nietzsche- View Post
    Okay, you quite often mentioned the "petite" shape of these Warrior-Women. Well, I'm not convinced. Take this one Girl of the "Ending-Times" of Amazon culture, that Michael Schulz from Goettingen inspected. She has had the muscles of a today's male Bodybuilder... and with 1,6 meters height she was 10 centimeters taller than the average Greek guy those days. She, riding one of these little horses you discovered would look like Arnold Schwarzenegger, riding a Shetland-Pony ;-)
    If you can't inspect the bones of these Women, a good indicator for big muscles is also the size of the arrowhead-to-shaft-joints. If the holes do only measure about 4 millimeters, it's for a barreled shaft. These shafts are used for 80+ pound Bows, because "normal" Shafts would simply explode before leaving the Bow (happened to me once with my 55 pound Assyrian Bow - wasn't funny). In my Shooting-Club, we only have 2 guys that can handle such amount of power. Both of them look like Hercules (well, one like Hercules who ate too much LOL)
    FYI, Pea, our animation lead is a Level III archery instructor, and a docent/weapon master worked on weaponry of antiquity, and I myself have been to Archery World Competition. So I understand the points you are making, but we don't agree with them at all.

    Deformity aside, for a given people, if you can find a female of great physique, within that genetic trait, you should find a male of even more imposing appearance. So the argument of female being more petite is still perfectly valid. Because the comparison is within her own genetic group.

    Taking the Far East Celt for example, these are mummies recovered from Tarim Basin in China. The female can be 6 foot tall or 1.8 meter (as mentioned in my white paper), and the male is 6 foot and half or 1.95 meter. So you can argue that the 6 foot tall female is a giant, but the male would have been even taller. So the term "petite" is always true when you compared within the same genetic group.

    And in the white paper, I also discussed that Amazons has equestrian breeding program which are few and far between in the 300-600BC time frame. I can imagine a 5'4" (that is 1.6 meter) female perfectly capable of riding a special breed of horses.

    The female skeletons of the ancient equestrian societies uncovered in Ural and Central Asia, who are Iranistan origin (vs being Mongoloids) are between 4.5' to 5.6' (1.35 meter to 1.65 meter).
    And note that I would never use one taller girl against an "averaged Greek guy", that is simply not scientific.

    Also, another disagreement is that, I am 5'10" (1.75 meter) tall, and I rode steppe ponies while I was over in Russia, Central Asia, as well as Mongolia, it is not like us humans are so gigantic, we instantly crush the poor little pony. In equestrianism, it is a matter of how fast you can ride the pony and for how long.

    Another little known concern, which I documented before, is that, the taller the rider, the closer their feet are to the ground. While this might be OK during daytime march, it is highly dangerous during night march, or during battle. Riders are known to lose their leg because in the heat of the battle, or during movement in the darkness, their feet got cut or torn from obstacle close to the ground.

    As for pulling 55lb-80lb bows, the real physical limit is the pressure of the bow string on the wrist and the finger. That is why the horse archers use thumb rings, not finger tabs or leather gloves like the longbow archers. That is also why in the white paper, I specifically mentioned the use of double bows for horse archery, this was first published for Amazons Total War mod. Bow like that allows for longer limb lives, and easier pull.

    As for shaft implosion, the integrity of the arrowhead is the main concern, the shaft only needs to be strong enough to withstand the stacking load at the tail end. That is why we emphasize on the "spine stiffness" of the arrows. The shaft is always made to flex (or warp depending on your point of view) since antiquity, most wooden arrow needs to be picked specifically for its spine stiffness to match the draw weight of the bow.

    The ancient steppe ritual of breaking arrows when making alliance or making friends is grounded in the knowledge that if an arrow can NOT be snapped by the archer, it has the spine stiffness good enough for the archer's bow, since each archer would have a bow made by his/her family since childhood that matches the draw weight of the individual. It later evolved into having two archers breaking their own arrows to signify that they have found new and better arrows in each other during the oath.
    Last edited by parthian shot; 08-28-2013 at 00:22.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Amazons: Total War 6.0 & 7.0, Archaeological and Anthropological References

    You really have assembled a rock-soild team, there :-)
    I do have to mention a few details, though...
    I'm shooting all of my bows by thumb-ring. Personally I belive that it's a little more precise than using the tree-finger-method, but to be frank, I know that's just imagination ;-)
    The point is: I am NOT able to draw a really strong bow by thumb. I have to use my fingers, there. I cannot confirm that the limitation are the wrist and fingers, also:
    A friend of mine (the Hercules who ate too much) has got a 95# English Longbow, which I can pull just about half way out (hey! I'm not THAT weak LOL). I haven't got any problems with my wrist or/and fingers at all. My Breast- and upper Arm-Muscles are simply not strong enough to pull it out further...
    Surely it isn't healthy to draw those extreme weights all the time (I guess you already encountered some skeletons with completely messed up fingers), but you have to develop some serious muscles first, before you can have a chance to destroy your hand ;-)
    I'm sorry for not having made myself totally clear with the "petite-term". There is no doubt that, within one genetic group, the average female is always smaller than the average man - that's scientifically evident.
    What I meant was that these Women were not petite in comparison to their adversaries on the field.
    Also, even though they were smaller than their own men, if only the women did extensive training for war - and not their men - these women would have become more sturdily in shape than their men - so one cannot name them petite.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Amazons: Total War 6.0 & 7.0, Archaeological and Anthropological References

    Sorry for harassing you with all these "Hey, did you do your job right?" Questions - I'm writing on a histotainment Comic-Book Series about Amazons (The first one is already out for some time, now) and I need to know what's a fact and what's only a theory, before I present anything to my readers.
    I have to be so neurotic with this, because Amazons are still a Topic most people in Germany think of beeing as realistic as Flying Saucers or the Loch Ness Monster. Even many german Archaeologists with big Names are still ignoring every fact you throw at their desks and keep saying: Women never waged war, because women are weak, not as intelligent as men and only good for cooking and raising children (yes, some people still live in the Fifties...). The most ridiculous quote I have ever heard from one of these guys: It is impossible for a woman to bear a weapon, because women haven't got the right Anatomy. One could laugh about this, if it weren't that sad.
    So, in an atmosphere like this you can easily imagine, that you get called Erich van Däniken pretty quick if you call something a fact that is just a theory.
    This is by far not as tough as your Problems with some men, trying to represent their own, personal interpretation of a certain religion, but I hope, you understand...

    ...before I'm going to ask my next "did you do your job right?"-Question LOL
    Some friends of mine, who are somewhat into the german medieval age (mostly having fun with Talhoffer), told me, that these giant Knight's Horses everyone thinks of, when you mention German Knights, were extremely rare and valuable, and were only used for battle - and nothing else. Their Everyday-Horses were indeed tiny little animals the size of a mule at best.
    My question now:
    Have you only found this tiny little horses, or a big one, too, occasionally?
    This small horses might work for horse archery and scouting duty perfectly well - but remember the 1,6-meter-Girl, holding a 2,2-meter-Lance (they found this thing in her grave).
    I have no Idea, if this still might work - or if this would be more like a charging Hamster ;-)
    Did anyone do some energy-calculations on charging horses of different sizes?

  6. #6
    Amazon Total War Admin Member parthian shot's Avatar
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    Default Re: Amazons: Total War 6.0 & 7.0, Archaeological and Anthropological References

    Quote Originally Posted by -Nietzsche- View Post
    Sorry for harassing you with all these "Hey, did you do your job right?" Questions - I'm writing on a histotainment Comic-Book Series about Amazons (The first one is already out for some time, now) and I need to know what's a fact and what's only a theory, before I present anything to my readers.
    I have to be so neurotic with this, because Amazons are still a Topic most people in Germany think of beeing as realistic as Flying Saucers or the Loch Ness Monster. Even many german Archaeologists with big Names are still ignoring every fact you throw at their desks and keep saying: Women never waged war, because women are weak, not as intelligent as men and only good for cooking and raising children (yes, some people still live in the Fifties...). The most ridiculous quote I have ever heard from one of these guys: It is impossible for a woman to bear a weapon, because women haven't got the right Anatomy. One could laugh about this, if it weren't that sad.
    So, in an atmosphere like this you can easily imagine, that you get called Erich van Däniken pretty quick if you call something a fact that is just a theory.
    This is by far not as tough as your Problems with some men, trying to represent their own, personal interpretation of a certain religion, but I hope, you understand...

    ...before I'm going to ask my next "did you do your job right?"-Question LOL
    Some friends of mine, who are somewhat into the german medieval age (mostly having fun with Talhoffer), told me, that these giant Knight's Horses everyone thinks of, when you mention German Knights, were extremely rare and valuable, and were only used for battle - and nothing else. Their Everyday-Horses were indeed tiny little animals the size of a mule at best.
    My question now:
    Have you only found this tiny little horses, or a big one, too, occasionally?
    This small horses might work for horse archery and scouting duty perfectly well - but remember the 1,6-meter-Girl, holding a 2,2-meter-Lance (they found this thing in her grave).
    I have no Idea, if this still might work - or if this would be more like a charging Hamster ;-)
    Did anyone do some energy-calculations on charging horses of different sizes?
    - On women not able to bear weapon

    That depends on what equipment and what tactics. My theses maintain that with better mobility and stand-off capability, women can out match any men's army.
    Modern women's real problem is her attitude and her upbringing, thanks to 3,000 years of brainwashing by the patriarchal societies.

    - On knight's war mounts

    The only known ancient horse taller than 14 hands is the Akhal-Teke horse, its DNA is shown to be the ancestors of almost all the war mounts through out the history. Whether the breed itself is a cross-bred Assyrian cavalry horses is not known. Far East Celt is also the first people known to domesticate the horses, so the Akhal-Teke horses might have been passed on from the Far East Celt.

    This is the same horse a Chinese Emperor made a replica of the horse in gold and trying to get live ones from the Ferghana (or Dayuan) Kingdom far to the west of China in order to provide better horses for the Chinese cavalry. When the kingdom refused the gift, the emperor waged a 10 years war against them trying to get live Akhal-Teke horses. This is the beginning of the Silk Road.

    My theory is that the most of ancient horses have bred to be larger, not for cavalry mounts, but to draw horse carts and carriage, or plow the fields. Most of these horses are unable to break into gallop or charge, the typical of these horses are the Brabancon, or Belgium heavy horses. When they lost most of their war mounts over the war with Russia after 1812, some French made the mistake of using these horses for their heavy cavalry regiments, and in several battles, the horses were unable to charge, so the desperate cavalry soldiers "march" the horse to displace the enemy formation while understandably suffering heavy casualties.

    And from the time before the Alexander The Great, people have tried to cross breed the heavy farm horses with tall and more agile race horses, and pray and hope the result can be used for cavalry. The Spanish Andalusian war horse is the secret work of Benedictine monks who successfully bred a heavy horse suitable for cavalry work from the offspring of captured Moorish war mounts with local horses.
    But this is is one success in countless of failures.
    If you trace the lineage. the Moorish horses are cross-bred Arabian horses, and the Arabian horses are cross-bred Akhal-Teke. As you can see, there aren't much of other mixtures which means in the entire history of cavalry, new suitable war mounts were only successfully bred a few times.

    - 2.2 meter lance

    So here we talk about the use of lance in cavalry combat, not ceremonials. If you ask me, we have got most cavalry animation all wrong (Rome II included), before the adaptation of stirrups, lancer charging the enemy with under the shoulder hold (like most jousting scene we see from the games or movies) will get unseated at once when the lance hit the intended target.
    Before the incorporation of stirrup into cavalry combat, almost all lancer charges are over the shoulder hold which translate the impact upwards, not directly against the rider. The much talked about Kantos spear, for example, which the rider holds with both hands, merely suggest that the war horse is trained in the Central Asian fashion, meaning the rider can stir and direct the horse using the knees and the lower legs. The charge is still using the over the shoulder hold, so now if you can visualized a cavalry charge by the Sarmatian Kantos cavalry, all the first line trooper in that lancer units are not tugging their lances under their arm pit, but actually raise both hands up and jab the spear (or lance) downwards. So are the Alexander's cavalry shown in all the contemporary mosaic and period current sculptures.

    Avars (Aaorsii) are the only people known to use metal stirrup in battle, and even then their lance are considerable shorter, only at 1.8 meter.

    So what is the big deal with 2.2 meter "lance"?, well, without stirrup, any "lancer" can not charge the enemy with 2.2 meter lance because, at 2.2 meter length even with both hands holding the lance high, the impact angle is so small, even with the over the shoulder hold, the result is almost the same as the under the shoulder hold, and imparts almost a direct impact to the rider. Unless this rider is some ancient version Olympic Pole Vaulting jumper, on horseback no less.

    The above hypothesis of mine is anthropologically sound and completely substantiated by period-correct mosaic or other archaeological artifacts.

    So my feeling of what that girl is, and the "lance" is, is that

    1. she is a ceremonial figure (the "lance" is her symbol of authority during the ceremony),
    2. she is a standard bearer, which means her "lance" is not a lance at all, but a pole with spearhead to hoist standard or color for her people.
    3. she is a member of some kind of suicide corp. meaning the very tactics of her unit is to hit the enemy, and get un-seated from the horse, and prepared to suffer the injury, death or capture.
    4. her unit uses a completely hypothetical rope/lether stirrup. which we have no way of knowing if this is true or not.

    - Horse archery and scout

    Small horses are not necessarily faster than fast horses, and small does not mean it will out-maneuver the heavier horses. On the contrary, a good race quality horse will most certainly overtake a steppe pony.

    So the scouts are usually equipped with the best and the fastest horses available such that they can overrun any potential threats.

    What small ponies signify though, is that they are economical. Steppe ponies will survive the harsh winter with minimum food and water, when most other horses are long gone.
    Last edited by parthian shot; 08-30-2013 at 21:57.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Amazons: Total War 6.0 & 7.0, Archaeological and Anthropological References

    "Unless this rider is some ancient version Olympic Pole Vaulting jumper" RoFl :-D Great way to describe it.
    Thank you for your detailed and illuminating answer :-)
    With this background, there is only one probable solution for the 2,2 meter problem:
    It is not a lance - it's a long spear, as you already suggested.
    If we sum up everything you told us about horses and lancing-techniques, it is practically impossible to use this thing as a lance.
    Alas, this is, how it is, all too often: Someone uses an incorrect term - and everyone runs into the wrong direction.
    This girl surely has been one hell of a warrior (the examination of her bones made that obvious), but not on a horseback.
    Findings like this show us, that these Women were dangerous adversaries, wether mounted or on foot.

    P.S.:
    "Modern women's real problem is her attitude and her upbringing, thanks to 3,000 years of brainwashing by the patriarchal societies."
    Hey! You are stealing my words ;-)

  8. #8
    Amazon Total War Admin Member parthian shot's Avatar
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    Default Re: Amazons: Total War 6.0 & 7.0, Archaeological and Anthropological References

    Vice's interview with Warrior Women of Asgarda.

    Their leader, Keterina Tarnovska claims lineage from Ukrainian Amazons.

    Please note that though the view expressed in this video shares some similarity with the Amazons Total War mod's anthropological theses, they are completely independent movement from the mod or Parthian Shot's theses.

    Also please exercise caution and viewer discretion because of some mature scene or topics:

    Last edited by parthian shot; 12-11-2013 at 03:45.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Amazons: Total War 6.0 & 7.0, Archaeological and Anthropological References

    Well, I don't know if I might be over-reacting, but as a today's German I have a built-in Scepticism against Groups, that attract Children by Adventures - while indoctrinating political Ideologies...
    as far as I can see, this is, what happens, there, quite frequently. If you search the Internet for this Group, it becomes pretty obvious, that they have a high Number of very young Girls - you can read Ages of 12-14, the Children on some pics look even younger. These Girls are practically parented, there, and some are in their early 20ies, meanwhile. These Girls grow up with an Ideology, that sees War as cool and admires Warroirs, for what they are and what they do (i.e. killing People in the end...)
    I wouldn't see any Problem, if this were a Group for Grown-up Women, old enough to judge for themselves.
    Am I oversensitive with this?

  10. #10
    Amazon Total War Admin Member parthian shot's Avatar
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    Default Re: Amazons: Total War 6.0 & 7.0, Archaeological and Anthropological References

    Quote Originally Posted by -Nietzsche- View Post
    Well, I don't know if I might be over-reacting, but as a today's German I have a built-in Scepticism against Groups, that attract Children by Adventures - while indoctrinating political Ideologies...
    as far as I can see, this is, what happens, there, quite frequently. If you search the Internet for this Group, it becomes pretty obvious, that they have a high Number of very young Girls - you can read Ages of 12-14, the Children on some pics look even younger. These Girls are practically parented, there, and some are in their early 20ies, meanwhile. These Girls grow up with an Ideology, that sees War as cool and admires Warroirs, for what they are and what they do (i.e. killing People in the end...)
    I wouldn't see any Problem, if this were a Group for Grown-up Women, old enough to judge for themselves.
    Am I oversensitive with this?
    I totally understand your concern, given your country's background...

    But guess we can say the same about cub scout troops.

    Or martial arts clubs.

    Or private-run boot camps for the juvenile delinquents.

    Or America's pro-2nd Amendment training centers.

    If the intent is evil, no matter how people would like to embellish it, it is evil.

    But if the intent is trying to rejuvenate a failing society, trained to the warrior's ways while not advocating violence and jingoism can not be labelled a bad thing.

    I don't see anywhere in their video that they advocate resolving societal or personal issues via violence. If you do find it, please let me know.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Amazons: Total War 6.0 & 7.0, Archaeological and Anthropological References

    Well, this is, what a Warrior does - resolving Problems via Violence... I'm not sure, if one should confront Children to such a Perspective all the time...
    but maybe you're right and I'm overreacting.
    To judge, wether the Ukraine is failing or not is quite difficult right now, as you can see in the News. The Ukraine as got a precarious standing - the Cold War hasn't ended for this Country, yet. Russia is the 2nd largest Exporter of military Goods (well, I mean Weapons LOL). Most of the Production Facilities are in the Ukraine, though. Russia has kept a policy of bleeding out this Country by not paying a lot for the Assembly, there - and demanding high Prices for their Natural Gas on the other Hand. With the now established Natural Gas-Lines Nabucco and Northstream as Alternatives, this Option is no longer available for Russia, resulting in Putin's "Charming Offensive" on the Ukraine. Many Ukrainians would rather like a Western Association (you can currently watch TV, to see that), but noone really knows, what happens, when this 2nd Revolution is succesful - and Putin stops beeing pollite...
    Teaching Children how to wage War in a Situation like this makes me a bit uneasy.

    P.S.:
    I know, Germany is the 3rd largest Exporter of Weapons, and it may look a little schizophrenic to talk about Peace while selling Weapons in gigantic Amounts...
    You might have already guessed: America is #1 on the Exporters' Ranking.

  12. #12
    Amazon Total War Admin Member parthian shot's Avatar
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    Default Re: Amazons: Total War 6.0 & 7.0, Archaeological and Anthropological References

    Quote Originally Posted by -Nietzsche- View Post
    Well, this is, what a Warrior does - resolving Problems via Violence... I'm not sure, if one should confront Children to such a Perspective all the time...
    but maybe you're right and I'm overreacting.
    To judge, wether the Ukraine is failing or not is quite difficult right now, as you can see in the News. The Ukraine as got a precarious standing - the Cold War hasn't ended for this Country, yet. Russia is the 2nd largest Exporter of military Goods (well, I mean Weapons LOL). Most of the Production Facilities are in the Ukraine, though. Russia has kept a policy of bleeding out this Country by not paying a lot for the Assembly, there - and demanding high Prices for their Natural Gas on the other Hand. With the now established Natural Gas-Lines Nabucco and Northstream as Alternatives, this Option is no longer available for Russia, resulting in Putin's "Charming Offensive" on the Ukraine. Many Ukrainians would rather like a Western Association (you can currently watch TV, to see that), but noone really knows, what happens, when this 2nd Revolution is succesful - and Putin stops beeing pollite...
    Teaching Children how to wage War in a Situation like this makes me a bit uneasy.

    P.S.:
    I know, Germany is the 3rd largest Exporter of Weapons, and it may look a little schizophrenic to talk about Peace while selling Weapons in gigantic Amounts...
    You might have already guessed: America is #1 on the Exporters' Ranking.
    I was brought up to understand there is nothing wrong with weapons, it is the people's intention which is the determining factor.

    I stated Ukrainian as a failing country not because they are not well financially, there are poorer countries compared to Ukraine. But Ukraine has serious substance abuse problems, domestic violence problems, and women slave trafficking.

    I grew up among American Indians, many tribes are actually doing well financially too, but there are some with comparable moral issues as Ukraine's. Like, substance abuse, domestic violence, and victimization of women.

    Against that backdrop, I can see why people like Keterina would like to teach her fellow women how to find the self-esteem for themselves as well as their country through martial spirit and military-style training for her womenfolks in Ukraine.
    You can say Hitler tried it and use it for his evil intentions, and Frederick The Great tried it and saved Prussia, or Ronald Reagan also tried it, and save the world from possible bloodbath of the Cold War.

    Just because the activities have potential for evils, does not means evil is manifested in these activities, and also does not mean disallowing such activities will prevent evils.
    Last edited by parthian shot; 12-19-2013 at 05:05.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Amazons: Total War 6.0 & 7.0, Archaeological and Anthropological References

    hmm...
    maybe, you're right.
    Qui desiderat pacem, preparet bellum

  14. #14

    Default Re: Amazons: Total War 6.0 & 7.0, Archaeological and Anthropological References

    I was skimming over the current faction descriptions, yesterday and saw, that you referred to an Ebook named "Quarrel at the Gates" or "Quarrel of the Guardians"... this Book is hidden very well in the Depths of the Internet
    Have you got a link or something?

  15. #15
    Amazon Total War Admin Member parthian shot's Avatar
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    Default Re: Amazons: Total War 6.0 & 7.0, Archaeological and Anthropological References

    Quote Originally Posted by -Nietzsche- View Post
    I was skimming over the current faction descriptions, yesterday and saw, that you referred to an Ebook named "Quarrel at the Gates" or "Quarrel of the Guardians"... this Book is hidden very well in the Depths of the Internet
    Have you got a link or something?
    It was out briefly but the publisher has to be replaced because the term was not favorable. So I am still looking for a publisher.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Amazons: Total War 6.0 & 7.0, Archaeological and Anthropological References

    Well, maybe you could find someone, who is printing real Books, too. You can't place an Ebook on a shelf...

  17. #17
    Amazon Total War Admin Member parthian shot's Avatar
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    Default Re: Amazons: Total War 6.0 & 7.0, Archaeological and Anthropological References

    Quote Originally Posted by -Nietzsche- View Post
    Well, maybe you could find someone, who is printing real Books, too. You can't place an Ebook on a shelf...
    You are right! And I was looking for another publisher who offers printed eBook option at an extra fee to the reader. The book got artwork as well, so it would make a nice soft cover or hard cover book.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Amazons: Total War 6.0 & 7.0, Archaeological and Anthropological References

    Friends of mine just stumbled over a "new Guy in town", who places his Thoughts on archaeological Subjects at youtube...
    This is, what he has to say about Amazons:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qow7RCAqHdc

    This surely looks like a Bouquet of the usual, old Stereotypes, that are ignoring every archeological Fact of the last 15 Years. The Problem: Most people think, that everything he says is true - for the remaining Statements of him on miscelaneous other Topics seem to be a lot better (I still haven't seen them personally, yet.)
    So I wonder if this clip might be worth a few words of clarification...

  19. #19
    Amazon Total War Admin Member parthian shot's Avatar
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    Default Re: Amazons: Total War 6.0 & 7.0, Archaeological and Anthropological References

    Feel free to clarify for that youtube clip, we are trying to stay clear of argumentative side of things, and it has not been easy.

    Also, anything you post on youtube pretty much stay with your Youtube profile forever, so do be careful of the haters out there. That is how I got some group of middle eastern fanatics sending me hate messages to this day, simply because I posted message on YouTube to thank someone for making the Amazon TW video.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Amazons: Total War 6.0 & 7.0, Archaeological and Anthropological References

    There is an old german Saying of WW1: "Viel Feid - Viel Ehr' ". That means: "Many Enemies - Much Honour."
    All, these Idiots do, is making you Guys and your Project more famous ;-)
    You can also have a look at the funny side of Life: People like these are the Tamagotchies of the Internet... feed them regularly and they do a lot of funny things for your Entertainment

  21. #21
    Amazon Total War Admin Member parthian shot's Avatar
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    Default Re: Amazons: Total War 6.0 & 7.0, Archaeological and Anthropological References

    Not to trying to bring up a modern parallel to the Amazons, but here are my 3 gun match builds

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Only in America!
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    Last edited by parthian shot; 05-26-2014 at 00:43.

  22. #22

    Default Re: Amazons: Total War 6.0 & 7.0, Archaeological and Anthropological References

    Well, seems you're adequately equipped for not bothering about eastern Trolls ;-)
    Nice work, by the way. You built these parts completely on your own? You must own one heck of a machine-shop...

  23. #23
    Amazon Total War Admin Member parthian shot's Avatar
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    Default Re: Amazons: Total War 6.0 & 7.0, Archaeological and Anthropological References

    Quote Originally Posted by -Nietzsche- View Post
    Well, seems you're adequately equipped for not bothering about eastern Trolls ;-)
    Nice work, by the way. You built these parts completely on your own? You must own one heck of a machine-shop...
    Not really, you can get cheap vise and torque wrenches to do mostly all the work. I certainly did not build all the parts from scratch, these are expensive, so took people with meager salary like me a long time to put them together.

  24. #24

    Default Re: Amazons: Total War 6.0 & 7.0, Archaeological and Anthropological References

    Okay, I'm almost through with Peter Scholl-Latour's political Analysis of the Middle East, so I need something to read. Where is your Book?

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