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Most of you probably don’t know this, but the Netherlands is (or used to be) very rich in natural gas. Most of it lies under the province of Groningen, the north-eastern part of the country, and coincidentally this is where I live.
Especially after the oil crisis of the 70’ ies natural gas has been a huge source of income. In fact, during price peaks it almost made up 10% of government income. Instead of putting the money to good use, like eliminating the sovereign debt, infrastructure or a long-term fund like Norway these revenues have generally not been earmarked in any way. About 15% was spent on infrastructural projects; the rest on general government spending like social security, bond interests and law enforcement. Nice stuff, but the long term benefit has been negligible. I’ve read somewhere that our poor example was actually one of the reasons why Norway chose to stash their oil revenues in the matress for later generations.
For a while there was an earmarked fund for the gas revenues, originally intended for infrastructure. But the stated purpose of the fund was later expanded to include “advancing the knowledge-economy” – i.e. a meaningless, vacuous term that can be used to justify almost any expenditure. The fund has since then been abolished and the revenues simply enter the general treasury again.
Other than the dumb way in which the money is spent, there’s also the issue about where it is spent. Over the decades the bulk of the money was spent in the urbanized western regions. These are obviously the most populous, but even accounting for that the amount is disproportionate. The three northern provinces make up about 10% of the national population, but only about 1% of the gas revenues end up being spent here.
Despite these gas deposits, the north is pretty much the most impoverished part of the Netherlands. Some politicians have criticized the EU financial aid packages to countries like Greece because there’s not enough kinship between different countries for such solidarity, like there is between different regions in the same country. They usually name the province as Groningen as an example, being the beneficiary of wealth transfers from the richer, urbanized west. I think this is funny.
As it turns out, large scale exploitation of gas fields can cause earthquakes. They’ve been happening sporadically for several decades but are becoming a regular occurrence nowadays. Granted, these earthquakes are pretty light (heaviest so far was 3,6 on the Richter scale) but houses and other buildings here haven’t been constructed with these quakes in mind. Since the gas revenues vastly exceed any economic damage these quakes may cause it’s perfectly rational to keep drilling and simply compensate the owners. But since the gas revenues barely benefit the local population anyway, most wonder why they should put up with it at all.
On the bright side: I don’t own a house, I’m free to move elsewhere and I intend to do just that at some point in the future. Living here sucks, anyway.
Especially after the oil crisis of the 70’ ies natural gas has been a huge source of income. In fact, during price peaks it almost made up 10% of government income. Instead of putting the money to good use, like eliminating the sovereign debt, infrastructure or a long-term fund like Norway these revenues have generally not been earmarked in any way. About 15% was spent on infrastructural projects; the rest on general government spending like social security, bond interests and law enforcement. Nice stuff, but the long term benefit has been negligible. I’ve read somewhere that our poor example was actually one of the reasons why Norway chose to stash their oil revenues in the matress for later generations.
For a while there was an earmarked fund for the gas revenues, originally intended for infrastructure. But the stated purpose of the fund was later expanded to include “advancing the knowledge-economy” – i.e. a meaningless, vacuous term that can be used to justify almost any expenditure. The fund has since then been abolished and the revenues simply enter the general treasury again.
Other than the dumb way in which the money is spent, there’s also the issue about where it is spent. Over the decades the bulk of the money was spent in the urbanized western regions. These are obviously the most populous, but even accounting for that the amount is disproportionate. The three northern provinces make up about 10% of the national population, but only about 1% of the gas revenues end up being spent here.
Despite these gas deposits, the north is pretty much the most impoverished part of the Netherlands. Some politicians have criticized the EU financial aid packages to countries like Greece because there’s not enough kinship between different countries for such solidarity, like there is between different regions in the same country. They usually name the province as Groningen as an example, being the beneficiary of wealth transfers from the richer, urbanized west. I think this is funny.
As it turns out, large scale exploitation of gas fields can cause earthquakes. They’ve been happening sporadically for several decades but are becoming a regular occurrence nowadays. Granted, these earthquakes are pretty light (heaviest so far was 3,6 on the Richter scale) but houses and other buildings here haven’t been constructed with these quakes in mind. Since the gas revenues vastly exceed any economic damage these quakes may cause it’s perfectly rational to keep drilling and simply compensate the owners. But since the gas revenues barely benefit the local population anyway, most wonder why they should put up with it at all.
On the bright side: I don’t own a house, I’m free to move elsewhere and I intend to do just that at some point in the future. Living here sucks, anyway.
Sounds much like Alberta, Canada.
We have oil & gas; been at it for a long time. The royalties saved amount to some 14billion (I believe we've been at this game longer than Norway); the attitude seems to be to spend it as fast as we can. If the politicians here were "trustees" they would be in jail :P
We have oil & gas; been at it for a long time. The royalties saved amount to some 14billion (I believe we've been at this game longer than Norway); the attitude seems to be to spend it as fast as we can. If the politicians here were "trustees" they would be in jail :P
I can understand why the people in the north are a bit angry
Hmm... from this and several other examples of despair at the actions of a country's ruling body, I conclude that the EU is not especially malevolent, cruel or incompetent, merely that it is as good and bad as any other governing body just that the lack of a singular national identity means that every fault it has is amplified due to it being perceived as foreign in every nation it influences, regardless of actual national origins. In the attempt to be representative of all european nations it is seen as representing none.
Originally Posted by Greyblades:
Hmm... from this and several other examples of despair at the actions of a country's ruling body, I conclude that the EU is not especially malevolent, cruel or incompetent, merely that it is as good and bad as any other governing body just that the lack of a singular national identity means that every fault it has is amplified because it is perceived as foreign in every nation it influences regardless of actual national origins. In the attempt to be representative of all european nations it is seen as representing none.
Nothing to do with the EU this time (am I really saying this), this isn't a reason to despair this is just an inconvenience. Shale gasses for the win, plenty of it.Hmm... from this and several other examples of despair at the actions of a country's ruling body, I conclude that the EU is not especially malevolent, cruel or incompetent, merely that it is as good and bad as any other governing body just that the lack of a singular national identity means that every fault it has is amplified because it is perceived as foreign in every nation it influences regardless of actual national origins. In the attempt to be representative of all european nations it is seen as representing none.
Edit, any experts in da house, deutorium, the sea is full of it
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deuterium
Question
Through much of the few minutes after the big bang during which nucleosynthesis could have occurred, the temperature was high enough that the mean energy per particle was greater than the binding energy of weakly bound deuterium; therefore any deuterium that was formed was immediately destroyed. This situation is known as the deuterium bottleneck. The bottleneck delayed formation of any helium-4 until the universe became cool enough to form deuterium (at about a temperature equivalent to 0.1 MeV or 100 keV). At this point, there was a sudden burst of element formation (first deuterium, which immediately fused to helium). However, very shortly thereafter, at twenty minutes after the Big Bang, the universe became too cool for any further nuclear fusion and nucleosynthesis to occur. At this point, the elemental abundances were nearly fixed, with the only change as some of the radioactive products of BBN (such as tritium) decay.[5] The deuterium bottleneck in the formation of helium, together with the lack of stable ways for helium to combine with hydrogen or with itself (there are no stable nuclei with mass numbers of five or eight) meant that insignificant carbon, or any elements heavier than carbon, formed in the Big Bang. These elements thus required formation in stars. At the same time, the failure of much nucleogenesis during the Big Bang ensured that there would be plenty of hydrogen in the later universe available to form long-lived stars, such as our Sun.
How can temperature have any impact on the mergings of atoms it's just -1or +1 or the mass that are neutral atoms
Originally Posted by Fragony:
Nothing to do with the EU this time (am I really saying this), this isn't a reason to despair this is just an inconvenience. Shale gasses for the win, plenty of it.
Greyblades was trying to make a different point which was more off-topic, which is why it might have came across as a little confusing as him seeming to bring the EU on this matter.Nothing to do with the EU this time (am I really saying this), this isn't a reason to despair this is just an inconvenience. Shale gasses for the win, plenty of it.
Every time I see frags I think of the EU, seeing as its all he ever talks about, there's not much to say about the original topic beyond "that sucks" besides.
Originally Posted by Greyblades:
Every time I see frags I think of the EU, seeing as its all he ever talks about, there's not much to say about the original topic beyond "that sucks" besides.
That's simply not true, i also talk about islam. I am so much more, ask my momEvery time I see frags I think of the EU, seeing as its all he ever talks about, there's not much to say about the original topic beyond "that sucks" besides.
then again, teh muslims and teh eu are in a conspiracy, so it's all the same thing! protocols of the elders of mecca! eurabia!
By the way, did you know that certain Salafi groups justify their movement by saying that God evidently blessed the Kingdom of Saudi-Arabia, otherwise there wouldn't have been so much oil there?
By the way, did you know that certain Salafi groups justify their movement by saying that God evidently blessed the Kingdom of Saudi-Arabia, otherwise there wouldn't have been so much oil there?
Originally Posted by Hax:
then again, teh muslims and teh eu are in a conspiracy, so it's all the same thing! protocols of the elders of mecca! eurabia!
By the way, did you know that certain Salafi groups justify their movement by saying that God evidently blessed the Kingdom of Saudi-Arabia, otherwise there wouldn't have been so much oil there?
As long as there is no sense of humor or other ways of introspection I don't really carethen again, teh muslims and teh eu are in a conspiracy, so it's all the same thing! protocols of the elders of mecca! eurabia!
By the way, did you know that certain Salafi groups justify their movement by saying that God evidently blessed the Kingdom of Saudi-Arabia, otherwise there wouldn't have been so much oil there?
That's the problem.
You don't really care about anything that you think doesn't immediately affect you.
You don't really care about anything that you think doesn't immediately affect you.
Originally Posted by Fragony:
Edit, any experts in da house, deutorium, the sea is full of it
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deuterium
Question
How can temperature have any impact on the mergings of atoms it's just -1or +1 or the mass that are neutral atoms
Temperature is energy. Or to be more exact, it's how fast the average molecule/atom is moving in the area. For merging (or ripping apart) you'll need to pass a certain energy treshhold (unique for every type of reaction) and get a perfect collision. Now since you'll get a lot of collisions every second it doesn't take that long when a proper temperature is reached. Edit, any experts in da house, deutorium, the sea is full of it
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deuterium
Question
How can temperature have any impact on the mergings of atoms it's just -1or +1 or the mass that are neutral atoms
The average means that some are faster and it's possible that those are the only ones that react. That's a relativly slow reaction.
Originally Posted by Hax:
That's the problem.
You don't really care about anything that you think doesn't immediately affect you.
I might surprise you thereThat's the problem.
You don't really care about anything that you think doesn't immediately affect you.
Your could learn from us?
"The Dutch" is a term we use whenever we want to convey images of horror and impending economic ruin. I'd say it's more common to talk about you than Spain or Argentina... You are the beacon of economic mismanagement, the living image of everything that should not be done.
Be proud of it.
"The Dutch" is a term we use whenever we want to convey images of horror and impending economic ruin. I'd say it's more common to talk about you than Spain or Argentina... You are the beacon of economic mismanagement, the living image of everything that should not be done.
Be proud of it.
Still better than what we are ussualy known for ;)
Originally Posted by HoreTore:
Your could learn from us?
"The Dutch" is a term we use whenever we want to convey images of horror and impending economic ruin. I'd say it's more common to talk about you than Spain or Argentina... You are the beacon of economic mismanagement, the living image of everything that should not be done.
Be proud of it.
For me actually netherlands is the land of part-time-work. Inhowfar is the netherlands so terribly mismanaged? I haven't heard about economic doom from the dutch.Your could learn from us?
"The Dutch" is a term we use whenever we want to convey images of horror and impending economic ruin. I'd say it's more common to talk about you than Spain or Argentina... You are the beacon of economic mismanagement, the living image of everything that should not be done.
Be proud of it.
Originally Posted by Fragony:
Still better than what we are ussualy known for ;)
Wasted potential at the World Cup? Still better than what we are ussualy known for ;)
Being tall, so it makes me feel like I am a normal height, opposed to the more typical "shorter" Brits.
Originally Posted by Kival:
For me actually netherlands is the land of part-time-work. Inhowfar is the netherlands so terribly mismanaged? I haven't heard about economic doom from the dutch.
There's no economic doom, Krazilec was cranky cause someone woke him up early from his afternoon nap. For me actually netherlands is the land of part-time-work. Inhowfar is the netherlands so terribly mismanaged? I haven't heard about economic doom from the dutch.
Just so you know, you guys in general sound really funny to me when you complain "how bad is it" in your countries. "Oh, my God, it's soooo bad here. I eat moldy cheese, drink old wine and drive a car without a roof. Also, my wallet is too small and my fine Italian leather shoes are too tight. Awful... "
Wanna swap, Kraz? I'll trade you richest province in Serbia for poorest province in Netherlands any day of the week...
Meh, I just like to complain. You should give it a try, it feels pretty good.
Edit: I'll give you €100 for your richest region.
Edit: I'll give you €100 for your richest region.
Originally Posted by Kralizec:
Meh, I just like to complain. You should give it a try, it feels pretty good.
Edit: I'll give you €100 for your richest region.
Pffff, are you kidding me?Meh, I just like to complain. You should give it a try, it feels pretty good.
Edit: I'll give you €100 for your richest region.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Originally Posted by Kival:
For me actually netherlands is the land of part-time-work. Inhowfar is the netherlands so terribly mismanaged? I haven't heard about economic doom from the dutch.
They were in the situation we are in now a few years ago, and squandered it all. We try our best not to make their mistakes, and Krazilec is correct that our oil-fund was inspired by their mistakes.For me actually netherlands is the land of part-time-work. Inhowfar is the netherlands so terribly mismanaged? I haven't heard about economic doom from the dutch.
We call it "the dutch disease" here.
Originally Posted by Sarmatian:
Pffff, are you kidding me?
It's a deal!Pffff, are you kidding me?
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Hah, you could have robbed me by demanding twice that much, maybe even more. This just proves that eastern Europeans are too honest for their own good.
Originally Posted by HoreTore:
They were in the situation we are in now a few years ago, and squandered it all. We try our best not to make their mistakes, and Krazilec is correct that our oil-fund was inspired by their mistakes.
We call it "the dutch disease" here.
Heh, I don't know if this is true, but I heard we are actually being back some of our gas at a higher price. It wouldn't surprise me.They were in the situation we are in now a few years ago, and squandered it all. We try our best not to make their mistakes, and Krazilec is correct that our oil-fund was inspired by their mistakes.
We call it "the dutch disease" here.
Originally Posted by Fragony:
Heh, I don't know if this is true, but I heard we are actually being back some of our gas at a higher price. It wouldn't surprise me.
We all do, as we don't have refineries. We sell unrefined oil and gas, and buy back refined oil and gas. The latter is of course more expensive than the former.Heh, I don't know if this is true, but I heard we are actually being back some of our gas at a higher price. It wouldn't surprise me.
Originally Posted by HoreTore:
We all do, as we don't have refineries. We sell unrefined oil and gas, and buy back refined oil and gas. The latter is of course more expensive than the former.
Maybe not enough, but no refineries seems wrong.We all do, as we don't have refineries. We sell unrefined oil and gas, and buy back refined oil and gas. The latter is of course more expensive than the former.
Originally Posted by Husar:
Maybe not enough, but no refineries seems wrong.
Gah, I knew you'd be a nazi over this Maybe not enough, but no refineries seems wrong.
The "maybe not enough"-part is the same as "no refineries" to my point, which was about the refining process. Also, it's a matter of international trade. For an example of another industry, we dump Jarlsberg cheese all over Britain, yet we still import lots of cheese from Italy, France and even Britain. More expensive cheese too. The same mechanics apply to oil and gas. Frag's post implied an arrangement where the dutchies sold off gas and then imported the exact same kind of gas back. That's not how it works.
AND MONGSTAD CAN BURN IN HELL FOR ALL ETERNITY
At last you're making use of your own natural resources. The traitorous scum in the Bulgarian Parliament gave Dundee Precious Metals a 30 year concession of one of our gold mines (the only working one) for peanuts. So far they've excavated and exported 100 tons of gold from our mine. Apart from the few priveliged who got bribed to accept this atrocious deal, the Bulgarian people get zilch, squat, nada from the most precious resource a country could own IMO.
You also must think of something else - there are those who don't want your country to pay off its debt. You must stay indebted and you must be reliant on things like the European Bank, the IMF and so on. Nobody wants a free, independant country that generates its own wealth. Would that we all end up like Spain and Greece, they'd be a happy bunch of bankers.
Why don't you organize protests. They seem to be working here in Bulgaria (don't know if you've seen the news, I was at the protests last night even though I make good money presently)
You also must think of something else - there are those who don't want your country to pay off its debt. You must stay indebted and you must be reliant on things like the European Bank, the IMF and so on. Nobody wants a free, independant country that generates its own wealth. Would that we all end up like Spain and Greece, they'd be a happy bunch of bankers.
Why don't you organize protests. They seem to be working here in Bulgaria (don't know if you've seen the news, I was at the protests last night even though I make good money presently)
Got any Protocols of the Elders to explain how those bankers work?
Anyhoo, a country relying on natural resources is bound to stay poor. Countries without them are bound to be wealthy. It's not a coincidence that Europe's first truly wealthy states came in areas without natural resources or agriculture(Holland and the Italian city-states). Ditto for the East. Asia's wealthiest country, Japan, is also the country with the fewest resources.
Anyhoo, a country relying on natural resources is bound to stay poor. Countries without them are bound to be wealthy. It's not a coincidence that Europe's first truly wealthy states came in areas without natural resources or agriculture(Holland and the Italian city-states). Ditto for the East. Asia's wealthiest country, Japan, is also the country with the fewest resources.
Originally Posted by :
The "maybe not enough"-part is the same as "no refineries" to my point, which was about the refining process. Also, it's a matter of international trade. For an example of another industry, we dump Jarlsberg cheese all over Britain, yet we still import lots of cheese from Italy, France and even Britain. More expensive cheese too. The same mechanics apply to oil and gas. Frag's post implied an arrangement where the dutchies sold off gas and then imported the exact same kind of gas back. That's not how it works.
Gas doesnt need that much treatment before consumption, and I think we do it ourselves. There are various industrial applications for natural gas (i.e. used for fertilizer, conversion into methanol, etc) and we might import some of that stuff, but that's not quite the same thing.The "maybe not enough"-part is the same as "no refineries" to my point, which was about the refining process. Also, it's a matter of international trade. For an example of another industry, we dump Jarlsberg cheese all over Britain, yet we still import lots of cheese from Italy, France and even Britain. More expensive cheese too. The same mechanics apply to oil and gas. Frag's post implied an arrangement where the dutchies sold off gas and then imported the exact same kind of gas back. That's not how it works.
Our pipelines also serve as a distribution node for foreign gas towards other European countries, maybe that's what Frags meant.
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