Defense Distributed Is The Greatest

[Kralizec]

Next: the US government, and states across the world, restrict the availability of 3D-printers.

Carry on.

[Idaho]

"Your" culture....?

Last I checked, roughly half of your population was in favour of stricter gun control. How did you manage to mentally spirit away 150 million people? Are they lesser Americans, or what?

If you want to call something "your culture", it would seem that "bitching, whining and generally disagreeing on the level of gun availability" is your culture.

It's sort of a feature of right leaning Americans that they see their culture (well usually the imaginary culture of 30 years before) as being the finished article. That human culture is not under constant change.

Actually it's all conservatives. That's why it's such a contradiction of being obsessed with the past, yet totally ahistorical.

[Idaho]

As usual, the Europeans fail to understand a key part of our culture. Its okay, we forgive you for it. That's why generation after generation left your continent for this one in the first place.

I have never for once suggested that you yanks be prevented from shooting the crap out of each other. Go for it.

As for the US being some ultimate bastion of human migration - a perfect example of the ahistorical poppycock I alluded to on my last post.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Wow. Imagine the computer parts you could make with this stuff.

The parts might be big at first but you could print hundreds of chips and essentially create a super computer.

Eh no. The problem with "big" is not just that you need a lot of space, but also that there is physically more stuff of which you need to coerce electrons to do your bidding. Coercing takes power, which means heat, which means coolers. Additionally longer wires have long propagation delays, which means lower clock speeds, which means less bang per buck of electricity bill and less performance. Additionally the bigger package, thermal and power enveloppes mean that even relatively straightforward electronics won't "fit" in the packages we currently expect.

You need semi-conductors, and you need them to be tiny (order of magnitude of now more than a few tens of nm) because you need to cram in millions of them. Then you need to have good switching properties for your semi conductors, which also means longevity and longevity of semi-conductors is not improved by applying more force (more power) or running at higher temps (melting). You also have industrial specs to contend with which may require typically -45°C to 80°C ambient temperature operating range, even for CPU's.

For modern CPU's we are currently down to such a scale that only a few atoms of Si can fit together in the wire (22nm) and the material has to be subjected to quite some special treatment to achieve this (basically "stretching" the atoms). Parts are cut out by means of intense (i.e. human-frying) UV radiation, and doping the semi-conductors is a lot trickier at that scale as traditional doping would not yield sufficient conductivity at all when the semi-conductor is switched "on". Try injection-printing that.

You could print a house or a car if you like, maybe you fancy building a corporate jet or a spaceshuttle. The only limit is the size of the printer and the material for the printer itself.

But even that can be overcome with some clever CAD design (or download someone elses)

Not if you need the thing to behave as "a solid thing". That is traditionally overcome with welding, but how will 3d printed stuff take to industrial welding? That's a major headache with current aerospace techniques already given the operating parameters the parts are subjected to.

[HoreTore]

You didn't get it. 100% percent of Americans would rather trust their own devices than the government. For now, that Arena is gun control, but that struggle encompasses lots of different facets of American life throughout the centuries. Its also why, in a discussion like this, some of us look over at Europe and just shake our heads.

Pure nonsense, but an A+ for your attempt at rewriting history.

What you say might be correct for rural areas - but the situation is mostly the same in rural areas over here as well. The US has been a shining star and example in both the development of international communism AND our modern social democracies with our welfare states. 30 years of your current neo-con wankathlon does not diminsh the contribution America has given in those fields.

And that, might I add, was a contribution from the american urban working class. The American masses.

[Tellos Athenaios]

That's why generation after generation left your continent for this one in the first place.

I believe the expression is:

Bollox.

Thanks! I'm flu ridden so I can do with a laugh or two to cheer me up.

[Kralizec]

No, no. Not an ultimate bastion of anything. Just the result of imperial conquest (by Europeans), hundreds of years of colonial warfare and intercontinental exploitation (by Europeans) that led to mass migration after (often forced--looking at you, Irish and Slaves) mass migration, and finally--in the early 1900s while you were all busy killing eachother by the millions--an actual bastion of migration away from the evils of a Europe that still can't get along after thousands of years of being packed in closer than sardines in a can. Forgive me for thinking there's a cultural gap.

Meh, a lot of those people went to the USA for economic reasons, real or perceived, and were encouraged by the US government to do so. For example I've read that in the late 19th century many impoverished Dutch people were deliberately lured to settle in Texas with images of a tropic paradise, with palm trees and whatnot. Imagine how dissapointed they must have been.

[HoreTore]

There were several migration waves to the US, all with different reasons for doing so.

If you want broad categorizations, I guess you could say that the first waves were based on oppression, while the later ones(post 1800's) were economically based.

A lot the famous ones from England/Dutchies/France were due to religious oppression. At the other extreme, all of the ones who left scandinavia did so for economic(or adventerous, I guess) reasons. Weirdly enough, all of the groups we've oppressed over the years have stayed put... Not even the Finns left!

[ICantSpellDawg]

Anything that would cause Europeans to eschew technological progress gives us the advantage. 3d printed guns could very well scare them off, more lunch for us.

[gaelic cowboy]

Eh no. The problem with "big" is not just that you need a lot of space, but also that there is physically more stuff of which you need to coerce electrons to do your bidding. Coercing takes power, which means heat, which means coolers. Additionally longer wires have long propagation delays, which means lower clock speeds, which means less bang per buck of electricity bill and less performance. Additionally the bigger package, thermal and power enveloppes mean that even relatively straightforward electronics won't "fit" in the packages we currently expect.


You need semi-conductors, and you need them to be tiny (order of magnitude of now more than a few tens of nm) because you need to cram in millions of them. Then you need to have good switching properties for your semi conductors, which also means longevity and longevity of semi-conductors is not improved by applying more force (more power) or running at higher temps (melting). You also have industrial specs to contend with which may require typically -45°C to 80°C ambient temperature operating range, even for CPU's.

For modern CPU's we are currently down to such a scale that only a few atoms of Si can fit together in the wire (22nm) and the material has to be subjected to quite some special treatment to achieve this (basically "stretching" the atoms). Parts are cut out by means of intense (i.e. human-frying) UV radiation, and doping the semi-conductors is a lot trickier at that scale as traditional doping would not yield sufficient conductivity at all when the semi-conductor is switched "on". Try injection-printing that.

People thought we would never get to 12in wafers either so of course people will print microprocessors eventually.

Not if you need the thing to behave as "a solid thing". That is traditionally overcome with welding, but how will 3d printed stuff take to industrial welding? That's a major headache with current aerospace techniques already given the operating parameters the parts are subjected to.

You dont need welding in 3d printing, remember the process is additive so you can print a frame fully assembled. Aerospace people are looking at printing hollow parts which would lighten a plane and still retain the majority of the strength.

the possibilities are only limited by size and materials in my view

Chocolate 3-D Printer Arrives At Last

3D Printing, Now in Glass

It's a cliche to say it's going to change everything but I guessing it will be pretty close to it.

[Strike For The South]

Meh, Not impressed.

Is this supposed to be how we get around the evil tyranny?

Because you can find plenty of parts around, maybe not in New York, the ammo is the rub

GET WITH THE PROGRAM PEOPLE, LEARN HOW YOU'RE BEING OPPRESSED.

[Montmorency]

GET WITH THE PROGRAM PEOPLE, LEARN HOW YOU'RE BEING OPPRESSED.

Tell us.

[Strike For The South]

Tell us.

That was the end of my joke.

You seem to think I am holding back some sort of awesome knowledge.

I am a drunk butcher, I AM YOUR PAPER GOD

[Fragony]

There were several migration waves to the US, all with different reasons for doing so.

If you want broad categorizations, I guess you could say that the first waves were based on oppression, while the later ones(post 1800's) were economically based.

A lot the famous ones from England/Dutchies/France were due to religious oppression. At the other extreme, all of the ones who left scandinavia did so for economic(or adventerous, I guess) reasons. Weirdly enough, all of the groups we've oppressed over the years have stayed put... Not even the Finns left!

There has never been religious oppression in the Netherlands...

[Beskar]

Why do I have a mental image of a computer virus 3D printing a bomb on all affected computers?

Food for thought.

[Montmorency]

Material constraints.

But a virus, I'm sure, could potentially waste all the 'ink' and muck-up the machine. That's plausible.

[Beskar]

Material constraints.

But a virus, I'm sure, could potentially waste all the 'ink' and muck-up the machine. That's plausible.

True, but many people are assuming a lot of complicated machinery like a space rocket can be made, so in that sort of light, some kind of IED could be created.

[Tellos Athenaios]

People thought we would never get to 12in wafers either so of course people will print microprocessors eventually.

Fundamentally there is a difference between cutting out and printing. On the one hand you have a solid which you know "works" and can be cut repeatedly to trim it down to the required size,on the other you have to hope the right bits (i.e. doped versus normal) land up at the right place (a few nm difference) and then the bits you "spray" have to be of less than the required size because you can only add more of them. You have to be able to aim with nm precision here.

Cutting is considerably easier to do, no need for moving parts with nm precision.

You dont need welding in 3d printing, remember the process is additive so you can print a frame fully assembled. Aerospace people are looking at printing hollow parts which would lighten a plane and still retain the majority of the strength.

Yes but then you need to produce the thing in one go, i.e. no prefabbed parts and assembly. So either you need to be able to 3d-print as big as your parts need to be (in the case of aerospace, very big) or you need to weld.

[HoreTore]

There has never been religious oppression in the Netherlands...

The most famous of them all, the Mayflower pilgrims, set sail from dutchistan, and their reason for migrating was to escape religious persecution

[Husar]

Anything that would cause Europeans to eschew technological progress gives us the advantage. 3d printed guns could very well scare them off, more lunch for us.

And you need all the lunch you can get, because while you're printing guns and celebrating your blackpowderian superiority, 15 million of you are suffering from hunger or malnutrition, probably being very proud to live in such a great country where you can suffer hunger and be called a moocher at the same time! Yeah, the availability of guns is really the most pressing issue you should worry about...

Edit: These photos of the weapons Syrian rebels use also show that some craftsmanship, education and other perks can help as well if you ever have to oppose the government. A 3D printer is not the only way to make your own gun, you have to know a lot about materials and how a gun works anyway. The fixation on guns ignores other important issues and that's a real problem, a lack of guns surely isn't a problem in America.

Edit 2: How's that fiscal cliff coming along anyway?

[Fragony]

The most famous of them all, the Mayflower pilgrims, set sail from dutchistan, and their reason for migrating was to escape religious persecution

They set sail from the Netherlands, but they weren't prosecuted in the Netherlands but in England. There has never been any here that's why they came here initially. The south is catholic and the north protestant

[HoreTore]

They set sail from the Netherlands, but they weren't prosecuted in the Netherlands but in England. There has never been any here that's why they came here initially

Never said there was any

Well.... Not counting the Jews you willingly rounded up and sent eastwards 70 years ago, of course...

[Fragony]

Never said there was any

Well.... Not counting the Jews you willingly rounded up and sent eastwards 70 years ago, of course...

Yes no less than a 100.000 died, makes you wonder why there were so many of them.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Have you ever noticed that Americans are all:

"Herr derr, I hate my government. Always taking my freedoms, always getting bigger."

And then you got these Europeans who are all like:

"You silly Americans, always defiant against programs and institutions which are in your best interests."

Even though Americans had the conviction to scrap the Articles of Confederation for being too weak and replaced it with the Constitution. And it's the Europeans who try to skate by on a weak EU whose answer for irresponsible member states....is to give them more German money.

Here's another joke, a Norwegian walks into a thread with the presumption that the Nordic model is sustainable beyond our current oil driven society, then proceeds to call other people nutjobs!


Jeeze, tough crowd here. What's the deal with airline food?

[Conradus]

There has never been religious oppression in the Netherlands...

Catholicism has been outlawed in the Netherlands from 1580-1850.

[Fragony]

Catholicism has been outlawed in the Netherlands from 1580-1850.

Not outlawed, protestant was just the state religion. Catholics have never been prosecuted for being catholics. You are probably referring to the haagepreken

[HoreTore]

Not outlawed, protestant was just the state religion. Catholics have never been prosecuted for being catholics. You are probably referring to the haagepreken

http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/ren/sum...4.harline.html

That fits the term "persecution" in my book.

[Fragony]

http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/ren/sum...4.harline.html

That fits the term "persecution" in my book.

In great Dutch tradition catholic services were tolerated, there were arrangements to keep it invisible though. It was outlawed nor recognised.

[gaelic cowboy]

Fundamentally there is a difference between cutting out and printing. On the one hand you have a solid which you know "works" and can be cut repeatedly to trim it down to the required size,on the other you have to hope the right bits (i.e. doped versus normal) land up at the right place (a few nm difference) and then the bits you "spray" have to be of less than the required size because you can only add more of them. You have to be able to aim with nm precision here.

of course but seeing as were already very close to being able to print circuit boards it's likely that something like a very simple processor will be printed in the next 10yrs. Very soon no doubt people will print the board on which the processor sits and buy summit off the web to sit in it.

Once your doing that the drive to complete the circle will be immense.

Cutting is considerably easier to do, no need for moving parts with nm precision.

But cutting is wasteful and it has limitations on geometry that are not as prevalent in additive manufacture.

Yes but then you need to produce the thing in one go, i.e. no prefabbed parts and assembly. So either you need to be able to 3d-print as big as your parts need to be (in the case of aerospace, very big) or you need to weld.

one could imagine a scenario where a frame is extruded from a printer that inches along a track inside a large warehouse.


also welding does not appear to be a problem

[Idaho]

All these waves of immigrants to the US got there only to discover they were expected to fit in and shut up.

The land of the free. Providing universal suffrage since 1968.