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    Master of useless knowledge Senior Member Kitten Shooting Champion, Eskiv Champion Ironside's Avatar
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    Default The 1 word essence of the political right?

    While certainly insufficient, you can use one word to describe the driving word behind both liberalism (freedom) and socialism (equality) and I was thinking if it's possible to do something similar for the political right. The word I've come up with this far is values.

    A strong connection with those having the right values, while the ones breaking/having the wrong values are treated harshly. A more right and wrong attitude compared to a better and worse attitude.

    It's one component of the political right, of that I'm certain (it's easily seen when the "wrong" values comes up), but it's it a sufficient covering word?

    Thoughts, comments?
    We are all aware that the senses can be deceived, the eyes fooled. But how can we be sure our senses are not being deceived at any particular time, or even all the time? Might I just be a brain in a tank somewhere, tricked all my life into believing in the events of this world by some insane computer? And does my life gain or lose meaning based on my reaction to such solipsism?

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    Member Member Greyblades's Avatar
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    Default Re: The 1 word essence of the political right?

    Dunno about the rest of the world but when I think of western right wing parties I think less values and more Oblivious-Objectivists.
    Last edited by Greyblades; 03-01-2013 at 16:35.
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    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: The 1 word essence of the political right?

    It is good, but if you take it a step-further with a description like: Daddy-Knows-Best, it summarises it up more fully. Values only go so far to explaining it.

    The political left would be more Equality. if anything, the counter of the right with Daddy-Doesnt-Know-Best.
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    Default Re: The 1 word essence of the political right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiaexz View Post
    It is good, but if you take it a step-further with a description like: Daddy-Knows-Best, it summarises it up more fully. Values only go so far to explaining it.

    The political left would be more Equality. if anything, the counter of the right with Daddy-Doesnt-Know-Best.
    The counter would be more like Everyone-Knows-Best-Because-To-Say-Otherwise-Might-Hurt-Their-Little-Feelings

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    Default Re: The 1 word essence of the political right?

    values.
    Daddy-Knows-Best
    These describe both left and right equally well.
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    Master of useless knowledge Senior Member Kitten Shooting Champion, Eskiv Champion Ironside's Avatar
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    Default Re: The 1 word essence of the political right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiaexz View Post
    It is good, but if you take it a step-further with a description like: Daddy-Knows-Best, it summarises it up more fully. Values only go so far to explaining it.

    The political left would be more Equality. if anything, the counter of the right with Daddy-Doesnt-Know-Best.
    Doesn't explain say libertarians. The right got a slightly more authoritarian bend in general, but it isn't large and not universial. Besides, I'm trying to find the positive word. It is and has been appealing for a very large chunk of the population throughout history, so there's more to it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    These describe both left and right equally well.
    Nah. They left is arrogant because they're better, the right is arrogant because they're right. Leads to diffferent consequences.
    We are all aware that the senses can be deceived, the eyes fooled. But how can we be sure our senses are not being deceived at any particular time, or even all the time? Might I just be a brain in a tank somewhere, tricked all my life into believing in the events of this world by some insane computer? And does my life gain or lose meaning based on my reaction to such solipsism?

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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: The 1 word essence of the political right?

    I'd say nationalism

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    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: The 1 word essence of the political right?

    Quote Originally Posted by johnhughthom View Post
    The counter would be more like Everyone-Knows-Best-Because-To-Say-Otherwise-Might-Hurt-Their-Little-Feelings
    I love it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    These describe both left and right equally well.
    Left is more Rights, opposed to Values.

    However, Totalitarian is on the right politically which is what I am guessing you are thinking of due to the various usurpations of power under the guise of communism, democracy and what not.
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    Senior Member Senior Member Idaho's Avatar
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    Default Re: The 1 word essence of the political right?

    Fear.
    "The republicans will draft your kids, poison the air and water, take away your social security and burn down black churches if elected." Gawain of Orkney

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    COYATOYPIKC Senior Member Flatout Minigame Champion Arjos's Avatar
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    Default Re: The 1 word essence of the political right?

    Decades ago, I'd say responsibility or realism.

    Today is irrationality or selfishness.

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    Ranting madman of the .org Senior Member Fly Shoot Champion, Helicopter Champion, Pedestrian Killer Champion, Sharpshooter Champion, NFS Underground Champion Rhyfelwyr's Avatar
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    Default Re: The 1 word essence of the political right?

    I think trying to encapsulte something so broad in one word is going end end up with inadequte results. And I think it is also unhelpful and leads to misunderstandings.

    Ultimately, left, right and centre all value equality, freedom, and moral values. Their differences aren't even in their focus on these things - where they differ is about the best way to achieve them.
    At the end of the day politics is just trash compared to the Gospel.

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    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: The 1 word essence of the political right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr View Post
    Ultimately, left, right and centre all value equality, freedom, and moral values. Their differences aren't even in their focus on these things - where they differ is about the best way to achieve them.
    Right = Racial Superiority, Economic Superiority, Patriarchal Superiority, National Superiority, Religious Superiority...
    There is no equality in the right, only inequality.

    Many in the right want to force inequality, such as, oppose welfare and cut taxes so they become even richer/more inequal to the poor. Jingoism and Empire Building, etc, to enforce a nations will over 'lesser' nations.
    Last edited by Beskar; 03-01-2013 at 18:52.
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    Default Re: The 1 word essence of the political right?

    Quote Originally Posted by "Tiaexz
    Left is more Rights, opposed to Values.
    Rights are Values. Let's not fall into absurd characterizations of the Left as amoral libertarianism.

    However, Totalitarian is on the right politically
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    Default Re: The 1 word essence of the political right?

    sorry, from the examples I get to see here, liberalism is not freedom, it's elected state run. socialism is party mandate state run.

    the political right has been grossly redefined, and justifies no definition beyond gross.
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    Default Re: The 1 word essence of the political right?

    Seamus and Gelatinous display an interesting point. Yes capitalism reformed, so the inevitable violent overthrow was unnecessary; Marx was wrong in marking revolution as necessary. But did capitalism "reform" or was it just pushed to change its tactics where regulations were imposed?

    Where regulations do not exist or are not enforced, the capitalist enterprise is a fair reflection of exactly what they were in the 1800's; child labour, working hours in the 80+ range, no health and safety considerations...etc. Does capitalism reform or merely adjust to the "situation on the ground" and follow only what directives it must?
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    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: The 1 word essence of the political right?

    That the third world is poor makes is relatively rich. If the potential in the third world was released, and that part was as productive as the first world, our relative wealth would shrink, while our absolute wealth would increase.

    It's a fallacy that one mans riches depend on another mans misfortune. One man being raised from poverty to riches benefits everyone else too. A poor man is an unproductive man; an unproductive man is a waste of valuable resources. And our wealth is upheld by human resources, not natural resources.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

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    Ranting madman of the .org Senior Member Fly Shoot Champion, Helicopter Champion, Pedestrian Killer Champion, Sharpshooter Champion, NFS Underground Champion Rhyfelwyr's Avatar
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    Default Re: The 1 word essence of the political right?

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    And our wealth is upheld by human resources, not natural resources.
    I remember you saying something similar to this before - you realise that you are taking a distinctly un-Marxist approach here?

    Marx argued that fertile land was akin to capital, the very source of all bourgeois wealth, and also called natural resources were in themselves a means of production (he used fish as an example here, IIRC).
    At the end of the day politics is just trash compared to the Gospel.

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    Default Re: The 1 word essence of the political right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr View Post
    I remember you saying something similar to this before - you realise that you are taking a distinctly un-Marxist approach here?

    Marx argued that fertile land was akin to capital, the very source of all bourgeois wealth, and also called natural resources were in themselves a means of production (he used fish as an example here, IIRC).
    I do, and that's an objection I have with several other 18th/19th century economists(like Smith).

    Marx does have a focus on production over trade though, which is what I take from him.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

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    Default Re: The 1 word essence of the political right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube View Post
    Exactly! So, then, Marx was correct: until the entirety of the human race has moved beyond the need to exploit others for personal gain (as a first option, by preference!) Capitalism is a flawed institution. I'll agree with you, HoreTore, that this can be better fixed by the first world having some sort of ethical socialist enlightenment that is non-violent, but from the point of view of those living in, say, Latin America, a militant communist revolution surely seems like a good idea. I certainly can't blame them.
    Might I offer the scandinavian model to the world?

    A little exploitation is fine by me, really. There must be a certain degree of inequality, as there must be a reward for progress. The key for me is the degree. You can say it's wrong for the capitalist to take 99 dollars for every 100 dollars produced by his worker, but that doesn't mean you automatically have to hold the opinion that the capitalist should gain nothing and be removed. It's possible to want the worker to keep 5, 10, 50 or 70 dollars without favouring a bloody revolution and complete overthrow of society.

    You don't have to see things as either black or white if you don't want to.

    As for the third world, my opinion is that they must be allowed to develop their own industrial sector, instead of depending on natural resources and outsourcing. Nor can they have just any industry, they must have the kind of industry that gives innovation and high wages(ie they need to produce golf balls instead of baseballs). I would of course prefer it happening through democracy, but China is a clear example that it can be done outside democracy. Basically, the third world needs to do what we did in the 50's and 60's, with toll barriers and heavy state involvement. The biggest problem as I see it, is that we do not allow the third world to follow the policies that made us rich, they are forced to follow the policies we employed after we got rich.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

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    Ranting madman of the .org Senior Member Fly Shoot Champion, Helicopter Champion, Pedestrian Killer Champion, Sharpshooter Champion, NFS Underground Champion Rhyfelwyr's Avatar
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    Default Re: The 1 word essence of the political right?

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    Might I offer the scandinavian model to the world?

    A little exploitation is fine by me, really. There must be a certain degree of inequality, as there must be a reward for progress. The key for me is the degree. You can say it's wrong for the capitalist to take 99 dollars for every 100 dollars produced by his worker, but that doesn't mean you automatically have to hold the opinion that the capitalist should gain nothing and be removed. It's possible to want the worker to keep 5, 10, 50 or 70 dollars without favouring a bloody revolution and complete overthrow of society.
    IMO that is an inadequte response to the issue. The redistribution of wealth will only reduce material inequality. What you need is the redistribution of the means on production.

    Marx obviously wanted the means of production placed under the state's control, but I disagree with this. It would be much better to give every individual a portion of the means of production, whether it be in the form of land, natural resources, or productive resources. Since wealth is generated by the means of production, this would reduce material inequality in the same way redistributing wealth more directly would. But it would also have much greater social implications - it would end the alienation of the worker from his labour, end the social divisions of the employer/employed, and give every worker a reason to invest in and improve his work (since he would no longer simply earn whatever was given him).
    At the end of the day politics is just trash compared to the Gospel.

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    Default Re: The 1 word essence of the political right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr View Post
    IMO that is an inadequte response to the issue. The redistribution of wealth will only reduce material inequality. What you need is the redistribution of the means on production.

    Marx obviously wanted the means of production placed under the state's control, but I disagree with this. It would be much better to give every individual a portion of the means of production, whether it be in the form of land, natural resources, or productive resources. Since wealth is generated by the means of production, this would reduce material inequality in the same way redistributing wealth more directly would. But it would also have much greater social implications - it would end the alienation of the worker from his labour, end the social divisions of the employer/employed, and give every worker a reason to invest in and improve his work (since he would no longer simply earn whatever was given him).
    My response to that is:

    Why not do both, to some degree?
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

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    Ranting madman of the .org Senior Member Fly Shoot Champion, Helicopter Champion, Pedestrian Killer Champion, Sharpshooter Champion, NFS Underground Champion Rhyfelwyr's Avatar
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    Default Re: The 1 word essence of the political right?

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    My response to that is:

    Why not do both, to some degree?
    Well, why take half-measures?

    What I'm advocating is a lot more practical than socialism, since changes can be implemented within existing businesses, rathern than having to abolish them. We even have some precedents for this sort of system, so it's not just some outlandish or idealistic theory. Waitrose, John Lewis etc...
    Last edited by Rhyfelwyr; 03-07-2013 at 01:33.
    At the end of the day politics is just trash compared to the Gospel.

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    Default Re: The 1 word essence of the political right?

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    That the third world is poor makes is relatively rich. If the potential in the third world was released, and that part was as productive as the first world, our relative wealth would shrink, while our absolute wealth would increase.

    It's a fallacy that one mans riches depend on another mans misfortune. One man being raised from poverty to riches benefits everyone else too. A poor man is an unproductive man; an unproductive man is a waste of valuable resources. And our wealth is upheld by human resources, not natural resources.
    Specifically, our purchasing power would fall whilst the cost of goods would rise (more demand for the same product). As a result, our economic prosperity overall would diminish, even as our numerical "wealth" increased.

    It also IS true that you can only get rich off the backs of others - economics is trade, getting wealthy using trade means buying low and selling high - creating a surplus from the transaction which you can then use for something else.
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    Default Re: The 1 word essence of the political right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla View Post
    Specifically, our purchasing power would fall whilst the cost of goods would rise (more demand for the same product). As a result, our economic prosperity overall would diminish, even as our numerical "wealth" increased.

    It also IS true that you can only get rich off the backs of others - economics is trade, getting wealthy using trade means buying low and selling high - creating a surplus from the transaction which you can then use for something else.
    Hah! Not likely.

    You can't "sell high" unless you've got a buyer. The richer people get, the more buyers we get. We also get a lot more products, since ore people are producing stuff, thus decreasing costs.

    The zero-sum game is the greatest lie told in history. Henry Ford proved that beyond doubt.
    Last edited by HoreTore; 03-12-2013 at 08:38.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

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    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: The 1 word essence of the political right?

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    The zero-sum game is the greatest lie told in history. Henry Ford proved that beyond doubt.
    I (dis)agree. It's true that everyone can become richer and have more by trading, but in the human mind it's still a zero sum game because we rate ourselves in relation to others. I won't be highly regarded for having a yacht if everybody else has 5 yachts because in that case a yacht is not a sign that sets me apart as being rich and successful. In fact with that one yacht I might count as poor in my country because the value that makes you poor is set to be when you earn less than 1/5th the average wage or something like that, it's not a hard value. So overall you may be fine but that doesn't mean you will be happy or regarded as worthy as long as you don't have more than most others.


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    Default Re: The 1 word essence of the political right?

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    Hah! Not likely.

    You can't "sell high" unless you've got a buyer. The richer people get, the more buyers we get. We also get a lot more products, since ore people are producing stuff, thus decreasing costs.

    The zero-sum game is the greatest lie told in history. Henry Ford proved that beyond doubt.
    No because:

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    I (dis)agree. It's true that everyone can become richer and have more by trading, but in the human mind it's still a zero sum game because we rate ourselves in relation to others. I won't be highly regarded for having a yacht if everybody else has 5 yachts because in that case a yacht is not a sign that sets me apart as being rich and successful. In fact with that one yacht I might count as poor in my country because the value that makes you poor is set to be when you earn less than 1/5th the average wage or something like that, it's not a hard value. So overall you may be fine but that doesn't mean you will be happy or regarded as worthy as long as you don't have more than most others.
    This.

    Beyond that - you're talking about luxury gifts, XBoxes, TV's... Try looking at bread, in a lot of Western countries you have families with two TV's who struggle to feed themselves. This is the same as last time, where you fall back on possessions rather than essentials like food and fuel. THOSE things always have a buyer, and the seller always looses out until it gets to retail where the merchant makes a profit. You forget, I grew up in farming, if the Western world is so bloody marvelous and we're all so wealthy why do most farmers need to be subsudised?

    I'll tell you why, because the merchants buy low and sell high, they extract more than their fair share and make the rest of us poorer.
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    Default Re: The 1 word essence of the political right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    I (dis)agree. It's true that everyone can become richer and have more by trading, but in the human mind it's still a zero sum game because we rate ourselves in relation to others. I won't be highly regarded for having a yacht if everybody else has 5 yachts because in that case a yacht is not a sign that sets me apart as being rich and successful. In fact with that one yacht I might count as poor in my country because the value that makes you poor is set to be when you earn less than 1/5th the average wage or something like that, it's not a hard value. So overall you may be fine but that doesn't mean you will be happy or regarded as worthy as long as you don't have more than most others.
    I'm a commie, since when did peoples happiness matter to me?

    All that matters is material improvment. Nothing else.

    (and I'm not really joking either)


    And you do agree with my previous posts btw, my statement was that relative wealth would decrease, while increasing absolute wealth, which is what you described in your post

    As for PVC; my standard example on economic matters is the farmer-miller-baker-example. When I have I talked about non-essential items? I've also made the point that depending on resources(like farming) makes you poor, while depending on industry(including trading) makes you rich. Why are you arguing against me, really?

    And one last thing: farmers should quit their non-stop whining. Not really relevant to this discussion, but I think it should be said more often.
    Last edited by HoreTore; 03-12-2013 at 19:32.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

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