Syria

[Lemur]

We have pulled out early [...] Iraq is begging us to come back, but we are too busy pulling out of Afghanistan and trying to get involved in Syria to handle that.

Eh ... um ... we were heavily invested in Iraq for eight years, at a cost somewhere between $3 trillion and $6 trillion. What exactly were we supposed to do? Make Iraq the 51st state?

You cite Iraq as a negative example of the US "not see these things to the end"—what end did you have in mind?

For most Americans, the Iraq War is, in fact, a negative example, but not the one you're reaching for.

[Montmorency]

The fact of the matter is the only way to intervene is to destroy the society so utterly and to occupy and direct it so thoroughly that the entire nation is transformed.

But 'democracy through total war' is a tactic we haven't used for a couple of generations...

[Fisherking]

Eh ... um ... we were heavily invested in Iraq for eight years, at a cost somewhere between $3 trillion and $6 trillion. What exactly were we supposed to do? Make Iraq the 51st state?

You cite Iraq as a negative example of the US "not see these things to the end"—what end did you have in mind?

For most Americans, the Iraq War is, in fact, a negative example, but not the one you're reaching for.

That is just it! They are all negative examples. There was no peace in Iraq when we left. I am not making it a positive example. Just another failure like all of the rest.

I only pointed out that they asked for us to come back, it is not that I think we should go. I doubt we would do any better the second time around.

[CrossLOPER]

That is just it! They are all negative examples. There was no peace in Iraq when we left. I am not making it a positive example. Just another failure like all of the rest.

I only pointed out that they asked for us to come back, it is not that I think we should go. I doubt we would do any better the second time around.

So you are negating your own point?

[Fisherking]

So you are negating your own point?

No, I think you just may mist understand what I said.

[Lemur]

No, I think you just may mist understand what I said.

Maybe you could clarify? You appeared to be arguing that the eight years and trillions of dollars we spend in Iraq were somehow incomplete, or as you phrased it, "We have pulled out early from every intervention."

[Fisherking]

Maybe you could clarify? You appeared to be arguing that the eight years and trillions of dollars we spend in Iraq were somehow incomplete, or as you phrased it, "We have pulled out early from every intervention."

That is true enough. It was not complete. I didn’t say we should have been there but it was unfinished, just as Afghanistan is unfinished, just as Somalia was unfinished.

If you think it is worth going you had better be willing to write a blank check for time, blood, and treasure. Otherwise just keep out.

[Papewaio]

Maybe you could clarify? You appeared to be arguing that the eight years and trillions of dollars we spend in Iraq were somehow incomplete, or as you phrased it, "We have pulled out early from every intervention."

Lemur this is the most stereotypical American thing I have ever seen you say. So much so it is more caricature of the American tourist then what a typical American is.

The amount of money spent does not equate to how successful one is.

Only Results Count (ORC). Were any WMD found? Is Iraq a functioning society be it democracy or dictatorship? Is it more or less likely to spawn hardline fighters, jihadists and terrorists then prior to the invasion of a secular dictatorship that was enemies of Al Qaeda? Did the price of gold go down?

Essentially US spent trillions, years and most importantly lives intervening in another society to only make things worse for that society in respect to making it safer for Americans and its allies. Ten years is not a generation. Intervention had only scratched the surface and despite lots of money and blood the result is a veteran enemy with more training, motivation and members then before intervention.

So unless we get Russia, China and the rest of the UN behind this and a plan to stay for a generation with a new Marshall plan we had better have a better plan then the same that was applied to Iraq.

[Montmorency]

Of course, the real problem is that the US doesn't have any good options - as far as I can see.

If we keep out, Obama gets to be the President that made us look like a chump to the antagonistic states of the world.

If we go in, we get a mess in Syria.

If we go all-in...*gulp*.

[Lemur]

The amount of money spent does not equate to how successful one is.

You seem to be under the impression that I am saying our Iraqi adventure was a success, or a good idea, or something. You also seem to believe that because I mention time and money that I am ignoring every other reality, including, oh, human death, for example.

Don't really know where you're getting this from; certainly not from anything I have written.

I have been saying that the Iraq War was a dreadful mistake since its inception. I have been saying that we should stay the hell out of Syria consistently.

So ... whatever point you're responding to, I don't think it's one I have actually made.