BSR's Edu Updates/Suggestions Thread

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

I just checked for sure, and while you're mostly correct, there are exceptions. Slingers with bucklers have only 1 shield value, Northern Iberian Skirmishers have only 2, Cantabrian Cav 2 as well, just like phalanxes... I don't know, it's weird. I'd like to hear GG2's explanation, but the weirdness is really on the buckler side.

The exceptions I've noted (and remember) so far in my edu'ing: Cantabrian Cav with 2, Iberian Light Cav with 2, Northern Iberian Skirms with 2, Iovaman with a 1 (poor Iberians can't catch a break against archers), Garamantene Infantry with a 2, all phalangite units with a 2, and all slinger/archer units with a 1 except for Theurophorantes Toxotai who have a 2. The logic for slingers and archers with smaller values (and I've discussed this with GG2) is that when firing a bow or a sling, the shield is not in an advantageous position to deflect or absorb missiles. Also, these shields are often strapped to the arm and would be more difficult to use than one freely about in the hand, similar to the shields used by phalangites. I've considered the above units (not counting the slingers/archers and phalangites) oversights to the rules rather than exceptions considering they are likely less than 5% of all buckler using units in game.

I won't comment too further on the Theuro/Legion comparison only to say that Theurophoroi's historical description is as a flanking unit, one whose role was somewhere between Peltast and line infantry. I believe me and GG2 have discussed that the in game models for both Theuros and Peltasts depict the higher-end armor that either of those would be wearing and as such, we statted accordingly (though its fair to mention that the Epeirote Theuro wears no greaves).

[The Celtic Viking]

Yeah, I understood the archer/slinger side, but the description of the Thureophoroi has them as between peltastai and phalangites, which isn't exactly the same as line infantry, and that their usage was contested. With the latter in your army too it shouldn't be surprising that the Thureophoroi would be flanking units either. That is not to say a thing about their armour and armament or how those should be statted for anyway, which is what you will have to argue about.

[gamegeek2]

At this point the EDU is really too discombobulated for me to even want to work on it further, though I don't mind answering individual questions. If I am going to work on it further, I'm just going to revamp the whole thing and replace it with the EBNOM system, which has gotten generally positive reviews and is more flexible in that it offers a greater number of "tier" options.

I still have no idea how you folks expect a forward-curved sword to do a large amount of blunt damage while being a fair bit less effective than a standard sword against unarmored troops. I can see this logic for a mace and even for an axe, but not a kopis.

[Lazy O]

Then we must bash someone wearing a suit of mail with a Kopis, volunteers ?

And on the shield thing, I personally think it is ridiculous to have +1 difference between a thureos and a scutum , both are roughly the same size, would be of same quality, and any difference would really be negligable in an actual battle, since individual armaments are the least decisive factore, in my opinion we should standardize shield values .

5 for Spara or whoever has doors for a shield , with a decreas in defense skill
4 for Roman shields/aspis/thureos/scutum
2 or 3 for bucklers and smaller stuff with an increase in defense skill .

Just throwing it out there .

[The Celtic Viking]

Then we must bash someone wearing a suit of mail with a Kopis, volunteers ?

And on the shield thing, I personally think it is ridiculous to have +1 difference between a thureos and a scutum , both are roughly the same size, would be of same quality, and any difference would really be negligable in an actual battle, since individual armaments are the least decisive factore, in my opinion we should standardize shield values .

5 for Spara or whoever has doors for a shield , with a decreas in defense skill
4 for Roman shields/aspis/thureos/scutum
2 or 3 for bucklers and smaller stuff with an increase in defense skill .

Just throwing it out there .

This post has my full support, though I still think they were OP before they lost the AP trait (though afterwards they became UP). The falcata may be too, but you don't see those too often so it's harder to judge based on experience (though going by the Iberian Assaults they are massively OP ). Lonchophoroi cav used to be the real deal only because of that kopis - now the only reason to take those would be if you don't want to spend merc slots on Brihentin and really want some medium-to-heavy cav with shields. I can't even remember seeing them since the kopis lost AP, but perhaps my memory is playing tricks on me... and I wouldn't put that past him. My memory is a sneaky bastard. In any case, there's no use for them now. See -

Koinon Hellenon - has Brihentin and not much use for their merc spots (partly because they don't have a lot of mercs to begin with, partly because the mercs they do have can more often than not be easily replaced with factionals). Brihentin has better defence, better secondary, has an officer and is (insignificantly) cheaper. >3 charge value IMO.

Pontos - Scythian Nobles are literally better or equal in every way with with no detriments, while still somehow being 300 mnai cheaper. Seriously. The scythians have the same lance attack, same charge value, same lance lethality, same number of men, both hardy, better charge with secondary, better lethality with secondary, same attack with secondary, same armour and def skill but +1 shield, both have 13 morale and are disciplined... Lonchophoroi are for chumps!

Arche Seleukeia - Khuveshavagan cav are much better for only ~70 mnai more. Pass.

Ptolemaioi - Agema Klerouchon are much better and cheaper... maybe, maybe if you really want a shield on your cav? But otherwise no.

Epeiros - Here they might be useful, actually... but I would probably rather take Prodromoi and spend the remaining 300 mnai elsewhere. Epeiros still suck and no one plays as them anyway.

Makedonia - Same as Epeiros.

Don't know if all of that can be attributed to the kopis change, but it certainly hasn't helped.

[-Stormrage-]

At this point the EDU is really too discombobulated for me to even want to work on it further, though I don't mind answering individual questions. If I am going to work on it further, I'm just going to revamp the whole thing and replace it with the EBNOM system, which has gotten generally positive reviews and is more flexible in that it offers a greater number of "tier" options.

I still have no idea how you folks expect a forward-curved sword to do a large amount of blunt damage while being a fair bit less effective than a standard sword against unarmored troops. I can see this logic for a mace and even for an axe, but not a kopis.

I just hope we got some faster horses, and some noticeable differences when a unit is fresh or exhausted.

I can probably guess the edu doesn't deal with those things, So migrating to EBNOM would be the best option, i think.

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

I just hope we got some faster horses, and some noticeable differences when a unit is fresh or exhausted.

I can probably guess the edu doesn't deal with those things, So migrating to EBNOM would be the best option, i think.

Actually Storm, the fact that I've removed good stamina from most non-elite heavy infantry has decidedly changed the way you would typically use them. They tend to slow down and tire much quicker now as opposed to lighter units.

And TCV I agree with many of your points, the only two points I would make are that KH actually has more mercenaries than most Hellenic factions so those slots are definitely valuable and you can do a lot with them (Balearic Slingers and Scythian Archers come immediately to mind). Also, the Scythian Noble cav gets the price reduction associated with Sarmatian units iirc, hence their ridiculously low price compared to other cav in their tier.

[Vlixes]

Actually Storm, the fact that I've removed good stamina from most non-elite heavy infantry has decidedly changed the way you would typically use them. They tend to slow down and tire much quicker now as opposed to lighter units.

Does this applies to Cohorts? Those were, after the Marian reform, dedicated war corps. I think they must have good stamina. Apart from that, I've the feeling that now Heavy Infantry will be useless. But I'm talking without knowing. Perhaps is just a change in the way a general should use them, and that's good.

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

Cohorts retain good stamina due to their extensive training and drilling. Phalangites do as well though that may have more to do with the way the engine handles them than anything else.

Heavy infantry shouldn't be running around much. They should advance into javelin range, toss their javs, and then begin to exert themselves. In other words, you shouldn't be able to race heavy infantry into position without much penalty. They will still fare very well in the main line but keeping fresh reserves may also be more important. They will in no way be useless

[The Celtic Viking]

And TCV I agree with many of your points, the only two points I would make are that KH actually has more mercenaries than most Hellenic factions so those slots are definitely valuable and you can do a lot with them (Balearic Slingers and Scythian Archers come immediately to mind). Also, the Scythian Noble cav gets the price reduction associated with Sarmatian units iirc, hence their ridiculously low price compared to other cav in their tier.

That's baloney. Baloney I say!

Regarding KH and it's mercenaries, I disagree. There are three mercenaries that I usually consider for their individual usefulness - Brihentin, Thraikioi Peltastai and Scythian Archers. That's basically it. There are definitely others that I like to bring too, but none that aren't because I'm still a Keltophile at heart, or that can't easily be replaced by a factional anyway. I'm not convinced that Balearic slingers have any use at all, to be honest; at the very least I'm not convinced they're meaningfully better than Rhodians, but both are more expensive than I'd like to pay for what is still a small and vulnerable slinger unit anyway.

(Of course, I also forgot that KH has the Hippeis Xystophoroi as well, who are factional cost the same as Lonchos while being better. So, only reason to bring Lonchos are if you a) don't want to spend merc slot/s on Brihentin, b) really want cav at that price range, and c) require shields. I.e. not very often indeed. Though that's of course unrelated to the Kopis.)

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

That's baloney. Baloney I say!

Regarding KH and it's mercenaries, I disagree. There are three mercenaries that I usually consider for their individual usefulness - Brihentin, Thraikioi Peltastai and Scythian Archers. That's basically it. There are definitely others that I like to bring too, but none that aren't because I'm still a Keltophile at heart, or that can't easily be replaced by a factional anyway. I'm not convinced that Balearic slingers have any use at all, to be honest; at the very least I'm not convinced they're meaningfully better than Rhodians, but both are more expensive than I'd like to pay for what is still a small and vulnerable slinger unit anyway.

(Of course, I also forgot that KH has the Hippeis Xystophoroi as well, who are factional cost the same as Lonchos while being better. So, only reason to bring Lonchos are if you a) don't want to spend merc slot/s on Brihentin, b) really want cav at that price range, and c) require shields. I.e. not very often indeed. Though that's of course unrelated to the Kopis.)

You may feel this way because most of the merc units KH has access to are lower tier units but think about it for a minute. They get access to Enoci Curoas which are a pretty decent flanking/reserve unit for a faction that lacks longswords. They get the above mentioned Thrakioi, Scythians, and Brihentin which are all quality units. They get Iberi Caetrati which I have made substantially better (as I felt they were lacking and are supposed to be some of the best light infantry in the world), they also get Balearics whom I love (pair them with a few Scythians and you can protect them long enough to wreck havoc on any and all cavalry), and if I'm not mistaken KH also has access to horse archers. You may decry the lack of a fear unit in KH's roster, but I don't see their merc options as worse than Makedonia or Ptolemioi, equal at least to Epeiros, and, well everyone has less diversity than the AS so I can't decry that shortcoming.

But lets stop arguing over the KH mercs, even if it is good fun 'ole chap Please continue to give suggestions on the edu, what you like and what you don't like. The Lonchophoroi issue can certainly be addressed.