Re: I apologize to everyone.
No, dead wrong.Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV
Did I honestly have to state that....?
EDIT: Though you are right that I usually make(or rather made, since I don't teach maths this year) my own math problems instead of using those in the textbook. You are, however, as wrong as you can be on the reason why I do that.
Last edited by HoreTore; 04-05-2013 at 12:20.
Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban
Re: I apologize to everyone.
So when giving math problems, You didn't add extra immigrant names to the examples or put the persons in stereotypical cross gender situations? I have no idea, of course. I have just seen enough Norwegian (and Swedish) teachers think this practise normal, for me to kind of suspect You, given they generally hold and defend the same world view as You.
Re: I apologize to everyone.
I see no reason to respond to such ridiculous statements.
Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban
Re: I apologize to everyone.
Sometimes, what one person regards as a standard social interaction, another person will see as being charged with political or ideological currents. This can be far more sutble than whether or not HoreTore goes out of his way to make examples where his students have to tell him how many apples Ahmed has. To observe this isn't ludicrous - language has always reflected the societies it develops in. The very way we address someone can reveal the social expectations that are imposed on them.
For example, are we socially engineering and indoctrinating kids when we refer to them either as 'boy' or 'girl'?
IIRC, it was a Scandinavian school or nursery that was in the news a few months back for banning such a practice. To us it seems like they are the ones bringing politics into everyday language, but in their minds they are removing it. Maybe in a couple of hundred years our descendants will look at us as bigots and wonder how we could ever think it was right to refer to people differently based purely on their gender.
Regardless of who is right, political and social ideas will be expressed in everyday things.
Indeed, the fact that Kadagar is Scandinavian probably explains his concern with these trends - he is on the front link of these developments.*
*Although the Scandivanians weren't the first in this regard, the Quakers once abandoned gender-based references such as him or her in favour of thee, thou and the like.
Last edited by Rhyfelwyr; 04-05-2013 at 21:45.
At the end of the day politics is just trash compared to the Gospel.
Re: I apologize to everyone.
The discussion of education as indoctrination belongs to another thread; simply put, teaching is almost by definition indoctrination: learn this, this is important, you will be tested on this; the very act of assigning importance and meaning to subjects is indoctrination.
Ja-mata TosaInu
Re: I apologize to everyone.
That's impossible and you know it.objectively examining all the facts of the world
It will remain impossible even after we deploy technologies for the downloading of declarative memories.
Vitiate Man.
History repeats the old conceits
The glib replies, the same defeats
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Re: I apologize to everyone.
Alright. How about:
Delusion.There is a standard of objectivity that we could probably all agree on.
And no one is - because that's not physiologically possible for humans.If you aren't actively questioning every source of information you get, you're a sheep.
Please explain your understanding of "objectivity".you're probably going to be more objective than someone who isn't.
Vitiate Man.
History repeats the old conceits
The glib replies, the same defeats
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Re: I apologize to everyone.
I come at the question from the PoV of my second degree. Education at the primary level is indoctrination: meaning and value is assigned to academic subjects quite independent of the value the students put on them. Every social interaction is a case of modeling whether you acknowledge it or not. "Taking turns", listening to a speaker, politeness, inquisitiveness...etc. Everything(!) is to some extent indoctrination: the basics of "how to act" primarily in an institution, and also as a social being.
It's not evil; it's how we learn to become human.
Last edited by HopAlongBunny; 04-05-2013 at 23:47.
Ja-mata TosaInu
Re: I apologize to everyone.
You need to make a major distinction here.
The first, which you described now, is the classroom learning environment.
The second, described by GC, is the subject(s) being taught.
Two very different standards apply to those. For the first, I demand the right to be Absolute Dictator For Life. For example, you may feel that certain persons or certain things should not be said. I don't give a crap, I will decide who may speak and what may be said. I will base my decision on my own education, by keeping up with current research and cooperaton with my colleagues and my boss(es).
For the second, you can believe whatever the hell you like, and I have no interest in what that may be apart from general curiosity. They'll be measured by how well they fulfill these criteria.
Last edited by HoreTore; 04-06-2013 at 00:04.
Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban
Re: I apologize to everyone.
I disagree. Humanity is by nature innate. If that part of our humanity that makes us social beings leads us to join together in common institutions, then that is great and a pure reflection of our humanity.
On the other hand, if our concept of humanity is being conditioned by institutions through indoctrination, then the institutions cease to be an expression of an independent force (our innate humanity), and become an independent force in their own right - as such the institutions themselves actually shape our very concept of humanity and social interaction. When this happens, this is something undesirable, if not quite evil.
I dislike a lot of things about the modern world because of this, and not just the sort of things old people grumble about. One thing I particularly hate is the modern education system. Apart from being an extremely unhealthy environment for children, the education system is the prime means of maintaning social division and economic oppression. In terms of its counterintuitiveness it is second only to the prison system.
Last edited by Rhyfelwyr; 04-06-2013 at 00:35.
At the end of the day politics is just trash compared to the Gospel.
Re: I apologize to everyone.
There is simply no such thing as unbiasedness.
Let me be more forceful: it is metaphysically impossible.
To think is to be biased.
To act is to be biased.
Only the dead are unbiased, if only because the collective function of billions of neurons, which we abstract upwards and ascribe something called "intention" to, no longer function as anything other than food.
Vitiate Man.
History repeats the old conceits
The glib replies, the same defeats
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Re: I apologize to everyone.
The condition of feral children is I believe less down to their lacking the chance to 'learn' to be human, and more down to the fact that their humanity is suppressed by an unnatural environment. If we are kept in an unnatural environment our mindset and our behaviour will as a result become unnatural.
Take for example, government. One the one hand, government can be a pure reflection of society so long as it has strong grassroots connections. On the other hand, when it becomes removed from these organic roots and becomes something artificial, then involvement in that artificial situation actually alters who we are as people (for example, North Korea). When this happens, the very fact that the conditions are not natural is a bad thing - because what motivates us and makes us happy is the pursuit and expression of what is natural to our human condition. And it is that way because that is how we are biologically wired as humans
At the end of the day politics is just trash compared to the Gospel.
Re: I apologize to everyone.
Actually I would go further. The human is a learning machine; first and foremost it will learn any behaviour that is rewarded by fulfilling the 3F's of survival; anything beyond that is, as Greyblades said earlier: "rearranging the decorations"
Ja-mata TosaInu
Re: I apologize to everyone.
Yes - this is wrong. What's not to get?But everyone is also capable of comprehending the idea of being unbiased.
You can't strive toward an ill-defined imaginary abstraction.
Vitiate Man.
History repeats the old conceits
The glib replies, the same defeats
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Re: I apologize to everyone.
Let me put this another way.
Would you say that everything that occurs within the universe is possible within the universe?
Yes, you would. This is by definition.
And would you agree that what is impossible to occur in the universe, does not occur in the universe?
I think you would. This is merely the other side of the definition.
So, with the above in mind, wouldn't it be rather silly to assert that possibility is a gradient and that it is possible to approach impossibility?
Allowing that one can not attain impossibility and witness or perform an impossible thing does not get you out of it. You must see that one possible thing is no more or less possible than another.
Divorce this thought from any notion of stochasticity, which is something entirely distinct.
All things are merely either possible, or impossible.
What you describe is not a difference in degree of bias, but a different flavor of bias. The "madman" is only mad because his frame of reference irreconcilably contradicts "society's"; both are equally biased.In the eyes of society, a raving madman who sees only what he wants to see is not as desirable as a rational and considerate person who views things from many angles before acting. This is, like, common sense.
I'm pushing my epistemology. In terms of my epistemology, what you're saying is no more than self-indulgent gibberish.What's your angle?
Of course, everything that is possible is natural. Therefore, everything that exists is natural. More of my philosophy.Every last aspect of civilization that could be considered good or convenient is against nature in some fashion.
Last edited by Montmorency; 04-06-2013 at 03:15.
Vitiate Man.
History repeats the old conceits
The glib replies, the same defeats
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Re: I apologize to everyone.
That's not really my concern here.But how do you apply that to the issue of political bias in the classroom?
If you want an opinion: the parents can go ahead and work to discern whichever academic "party line" the teachers are delivering to their students; how much you like this will vary depending on which "party lines" are most prominent in your chosen geographic region
But my opinion will be change if I don my Statist hat...
A ventriloquist?If I'm self-indulgent, what are you?
Last edited by Montmorency; 04-06-2013 at 03:53.
Vitiate Man.
History repeats the old conceits
The glib replies, the same defeats
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Re: I apologize to everyone.
That's called math.
lim -> 0 --> sinx/x=1. Or integrals for that matter.
We are all aware that the senses can be deceived, the eyes fooled. But how can we be sure our senses are not being deceived at any particular time, or even all the time? Might I just be a brain in a tank somewhere, tricked all my life into believing in the events of this world by some insane computer? And does my life gain or lose meaning based on my reaction to such solipsism?
Project PYRRHO, Specimen 46, Vat 7
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Re: I apologize to everyone.
MATH THE NEW JIM CROW
Baby Quit Your Cryin' Put Your Clown Britches On!!!
Re: I apologize to everyone.
But your experience and learning includes what your parents, teachers and others say and think. Add to this that so many people work all day to earn their food and roof that they don't feel like actively questioning everything in their free time because to them it's even more work and they just had >= 8 hours of that. It's also hard to form your own opinion through learning and experience when it comes to the universe for example. How many people have their own large hadron collider or radio telescope to get their own experiences with that? The results from those scientists are never objective even if they try. Their interpretations etc. are shaped by their world view, their knowledge and their own experiences and learning, even from other non-objective sources.
Even Einstein had a religious side and didn't feel comfortable with the view that science could or would disprove the existance of a god IIRC.
I disagree, a man who is not able to form an opinion and stand by it in the face of adversity has no backbone and is not a real man.
Not necessarily my view but I read statements of that sort elsewhere. So I'm pretty sure we don't all agree that striving to be objective is a good thing.
I've mentioned this before, but in an experiment people were given the choice of either both getting 200$ or the person asked gets 150 and the other person gets only 100. Even though option 1 is better for both, most people chose option 2, proving that they care more about the relative value and the comparison with others than what is good for everyone or even rationally better for themselves. I got that from a TV show, which is probably not unbiased (for example, if they were the only two people in the world, option 2 would make more sense, but I doubt that was the scenario), but I can see how the world often works like this. To expect everyone to try to be unbiased, objective and rational seems like an exercise in futility. When you fall in love, do you exclusively consult unbiased sources to get to an objective conclusion about your relationship?
"Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu
Re: I apologize to everyone.
lim x --> 0, that is. Thanks to Mr L'Hopital's discovery of using differentiation to get around pesky division by 0.
Yes, quite. If only established elites learned to do Math they might be able to run a budget and Jim Crow would not see his standard of living get cut 'cause the big guys spent it all in advance on more and bigger guns, shiny Ponzi schemes and robocall companies.
Or, on the other hand, what if Jim Crow learned to do Math ...
Last edited by Tellos Athenaios; 04-06-2013 at 15:38.
- Tellos Athenaios
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Re: I apologize to everyone.
Ironically this part of indoctrination makes us objectively better at being human and surviving for longer.
- Tellos Athenaios
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“ὁ δ᾽ ἠλίθιος ὣσπερ πρόβατον βῆ βῆ λέγων βαδίζει” – Kratinos in Dionysalexandros.
Re: I apologize to everyone.
I think the issue goes more like this (someone correct me if I'm out to lunch): An objective point of view is a delusion. As biological beings fitted with the sensory capability we have, the only PoV accessible to us is the PoV that our limited capabilities allow us to perceive. An objective PoV would not be intelligible (period) We can conceive beyond the realms of gross perception; extending the sense through sophisticated devices; creating artificial systems; but still it is as the old saw goes: not only is the universe stranger than we imagine, it is likely stranger than we can imagine.
I don't think you were trying to make that claim in your discussion of "objective PoV" but taken literally and w/o qualification it is what you were saying.
Ja-mata TosaInu
Re: I apologize to everyone.
Sorry for starting a hornets nest and then withdrawing...
May I start with saying I was rude towards HT. I have ABSOLUTELY no evidence that he in any way would treat his children wrong in the classroom.
However, working as a Scandinavian teacher, quitting my job as a scandinavian teacher, I have seen so many people (a VERY VERY VERY vast majority) absolutely throw clear thinking aside to go with a multicultural and feminist agenda, as they hit a classroom full of kids.
For THEM, it's the liberating and correct thing to do.
And in a way, I cant argue against them.
YES INDEED the world would be a better place if we were one happy big collective.
YES INDEED the world would be a better place if men and women were all the same.
And here comes the kicker... We might, or might not, one day reach there!
But on the way there, why are we trying to skip all the steps?
No, some Somali-negroe family will not anytime soon be a good investment as a tax base in a Scandinavian country.
No girls won't anytime soon fit the criteria for hunter (jaegaer/rangers) anytime soon.
My problem with teaching in Sweden (specifically) was that we had one blueprint of how the world looked, and one blueprint of how the world should be. Unfortunately, the worlds had nothing in common, and there were no directions as to how to bridge the gap.
And HELL YEAH, I had to try not to puke as I saw these socialistic state trained teachers go on their daily day to day working life.
I can't speak for Norway now, but in Sweden the BIG thing in school is "Every human beings equal value".
Equal value in what?
No really, I can respect some general right for moderate respect for other human beings... But IMAGINE the shipload of logical fallacies when You try to adhere to "everyones equal value" in a classroom setting.
Again, HT might be the best teacher ever. But as said, the ideas and views he holds in dogma there, so for me it's just another sheep.
With that said, I am still sure he is better than 95% of his colleagues as he actually do an honest attempt to have political discussions, like on this board.
Re: I apologize to everyone.
I don't know about us, but you guys obviously are horribly biased.
But even the whole backbone thing may make you horribly biased already.
People actively choose to be biased one way or another very often, goes along with building groups IMHO. The cohesion of the group is then strengthened by a choice to defend that group against "the others", be they individuals or other groups. It happens in sports, on the school playground, in companies and elsewhere. People will defend their group members sometimes even though they know they are wrong, simply because their lizard brain or the wolf brain or whatever tells them not to "betray" someone from their herd. All competitive sports is created to a certain degree to create antagony where there was none so we can indulge in more "us vs them" behaviour. Capitalism is based on the human need to place yourself on top of others instead of finding a rational compromise and people always say that's exactly why it works so well.
That's why I'm not sure about your point that everybody strives to be unbiased, maybe people even delude themselves to think their own bias is the "unbiased" position to take but in the end they often create a bias where no bias was before. I'm not a studied expert on that subject but to me it seems like a relatively human trait, probably related to the monkeysphere and general human social tendencies that do not extend very far considering the amount of inhabitants the planet has today.
"Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu
Re: I apologize to everyone.
My goodness this is pointlessly off topic.
Being better than the worst does not inherently make you good. But being better than the rest lets you brag.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Re: I apologize to everyone.
This is the backroom! Skip the first pages and go straight for a personal punch!! The topic is what we decide it to be, and the new one is "Does bananas bend left or right?"
Re: I apologize to everyone.
Yea, our guiding light has abandoned us. Without ACIN we are doomed to wander through the dark back-alleys of epistemology and whatever else strikes our fancy.
Ja-mata TosaInu
Re: I apologize to everyone.
I said I had a busy schedule, my due date to read chapter 2 is a week from Tuesday, so I'm sorry if I choose to spend my time doing ochem or thermo. The conversation has been quite interesting anyway.
Re: I apologize to everyone.
Now imagine if some Mormons had the idea of covering Mormon tanks with this magical garnment and attacked the Federal Government with them. It would be the end of the US.For those like me who wondered what that was about:
BLARGH!
Re: I apologize to everyone.
I was reading one review of this book which basically asserts the book is "historically blind". It jumps from the "Jim Crow" era to its modern manifestation and essentially ignores the intervening period.
It would seem a convenient oversight to ignore the civil rights movement, black panthers, the numerous leaders and movements that mobilized (and disappeared/transformed) over a large span of history. One might be tempted to charge that it "cooks" the data.
Ja-mata TosaInu
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