So I'm moving to the Netherlands (potentially)...

[tibilicus]

Title explains it.

I'm about to finish up my undergraduate education in the UK and whilst I've been lucky to get offered jobs, I'm re-evaluating my situation. I sat down and asked myself if I came to university to work in marketing and brand management, the simple answer is no. Ideally I wanted to work in conflict resolution and peace building but my current location in the UK means contacting NGOs who work in this area has been nigh on impossible. Also such NGOs aren't located in the UK.

It has always been my desire to do a master's programme as I enjoy education and a career in academia is still something I'm weighing up. Sadly, fees in the UK will set you back a minimum of £5000 at a good institution and there's living costs on top of that. Furthermore, my undergraduate degree comes from a very good institution. To do an MA or MSc at a better institution would require moving towards the golden triangle institutions (London + Oxbridge) which would set me back at least £10,000 in fees with living costs of potentially over £10,000. I have money set aside to fund my master's but not that much money. So, in light of this, I began looking into European institutions. So, why the Netherlands? I've always enjoyed any time I've spent in the Netherlands. I'd put the Dutch up there as my second favorite Europeans, right behind the Germans. I've found the Dutch polite but to the point, hard working but sociable and open and accommodating. The education system is also critically acclaimed.

So far, I've applied for and been conditionally accepted by Leiden University to study for an MSc in Public Policy, specialising in International Administration (global governance and conflict resolution). Unlike most courses at Leiden, the Institute for Public Policy is based in The Hauge and as such, I would most likely live there. This actually appeals to me for a few reasons. Firstly, The Hauge is a UN city and houses a lot of NGOs in the field I want to go into. In the UK, experience with a good NGO would require working in London unpaid. As I don't live in London, this simply isn't feesable. Therefore the idea is that alongside my MSc, I can hopefully find some meaningful work. I'm aware if I lived in The Hauge, I wouldn't get the student vibe of Leiden but as an undergraduate I'm very much done with that. As long as there's some good sports bars and gym facilities nearby, I will be happy enough. I do have a couple of questions though.

1) How difficult is Dutch to learn, as an English speaker? I'm aware a lot of people in the Netherlands speak English but that isn't the point. When I've lived abroad in the past (France) I've always made an effort to learn the language. For me, I feel you owe it to the country your in to understand their language. Even if its just to understand the evening news. If I were to speak Dutch everyday and receive classes, is four months to practical use reasonable?

2) How is The Hauge as a city? I'm aware it is no Amsterdam but I'm looking to keep living costs down and largely work/ study. How are the living costs, is it relatively safe? Any positives and negatives?

3) Housing. I will probably apply for housing via the university which for a room in The Hauge, (near central station) costs around Euro 550 pm ,including bills and internet. This would be a one bedroom studio apparent with a small kitchen hob, sink and bathroom. Is this quite expensive or in-line with most prices. I'm reluctant to rent privately after experiences in the UK and if the university is offering housing, why not?

4)Any Leiden graduates or current students have some final thoughts? The reason I chose Leiden is its very well renowned, particularly on an international level. How would an MSc from Ledien be viewed in terms of employability in the Netherlands?

[Fragony]

Housing will be difficult. No need to learn Dutch, spare yourself the emberrasment of being replied to in English. Learning Dutch is really hard, always remember that nothing here makes any sense, including the language. The Hague is a nice and pretty town, Scheveningen is the best beach to be in the summer. Expect to see many tattoes though ;) , it's a good thing it's not Amsterdam, it has all the same things but people are less rude. You are also really close to Rotterdam which has a more modern look thanks to our German neighbours, but it's a really fun town. Arrange your living space way in advance, best advice ever, and expect to pay a lot. Groceries are cheap though.

You will get a job in no time by the way, expats are always in demand

Another thing to consider, you might get lonely, many expats do. Don't expect to fit in very easily. Proffesionaly you won't have any trouble but keep it in mind.

http://www.google.nl/search?hl=nl&au...jY5WbT0IozM%3A

http://www.google.nl/search?hl=nl&au...YTk1jnZwEcM%3A

It's really a fun town

[Tellos Athenaios]

1) How difficult is Dutch to learn, as an English speaker? I'm aware a lot of people in the Netherlands speak English but that isn't the point. When I've lived abroad in the past (France) I've always made an effort to learn the language. For me, I feel you owe it to the country your in to understand their language. Even if its just to understand the evening news.

If I were to speak Dutch everyday and receive classes, is four months to practical use reasonable?

Yes and no. You

2) How is The Hauge as a city? I'm aware it is no Amsterdam but I'm looking to keep living costs down and largely work/ study. How are the living costs, is it relatively safe? Any positives and negatives?

3) Housing. I will probably apply for housing via the university which for a room in The Hauge, (near central station) costs around Euro 550 pm ,including bills and internet. This would be a one bedroom studio apparent with a small kitchen hob, sink and bathroom. Is this quite expensive or in-line with most prices. I'm reluctant to rent privately after experiences in the UK and if the university is offering housing, why not?

Not particularly. While the main property markets are all stuck in a bit of recession mood, this particular segment is still very much a seller's market. Even though nominally there are some protections in place (which you'd qualify for as a student) to protect from the worse price gouging, in practice you should expect to pay quite a bit for the privilege of sharing a kitchen -- especially on the open market. 550/month seems in line with what I'd expect for the Hague (it being a relatively expensive part of the country to live in), then again it might be worth your while to look around.

For example, 550 would be in-line (a bit on the high end of the curve, but not overly so) for a similar arrangement in Den Bosch, but if you were to move out to the "countryside" instead you can get similar or better for half to two-thirds of that (Boxtel, Oss) at the cost of a 15 - 30 min commute to the city centre (Den Bosch in this case).

Additionally since you are a student from within the EU (hah), you have rights to similar subsidies to the Dutchies, which means you might be able to get your hands on a student OV which effectively is credits for public transport. (With some conditions, for example it is/used to be a gift pending successful completion of your studies.)

4)Any Leiden graduates or current students have some final thoughts? The reason I chose Leiden is its very well renowned, particularly on an international level. How would an MSc from Ledien be viewed in terms of employability in the Netherlands?

Dunno. Such things heavily depend on the particular subject you're studying, but employers are unlikely to care about which one your alma mater is at the level of an "universiteit". That would be more of a worry at the HBO level.

[Hax]

The Dutch like to state that Dutch is a very hard language to learn. Granted, there are some tough spots, but if you know your languages well enough, you shouldn't have any real problems adapting to it. Take it seriously, and you should be able to pick it up.

As for The Hague, I think it's a rather expensive city. Not as expensive as Leiden or Amsterdam (although to be honest, I don't really know) but it's probably not really that cheap. It's likely to be one of the cheaper cities around.

I study in Leiden. The student environment is nice, and the international community is quite active. One thing you should keep in mind when coming here is that bars and restaurants close pretty early. Otherwise, it's a fun place!

[Tellos Athenaios]

1) How difficult is Dutch to learn, as an English speaker? I'm aware a lot of people in the Netherlands speak English but that isn't the point. When I've lived abroad in the past (France) I've always made an effort to learn the language. For me, I feel you owe it to the country your in to understand their language. Even if its just to understand the evening news. If I were to speak Dutch everyday and receive classes, is four months to practical use reasonable?

Learning Dutch is definitely a good idea, whether or not you will end up quite as happy with the results as you'd like. You owe it to yourself more than anything, especially once formal paperwork is involved. The idea that the Dutch will deal with English just fine is a bit of a misconception. Plenty do but you'll be encountering lots of old people (who grew up with a lot less of English in their lives and education); and even if they might be able to communicate in English in writing just fine, it is doubtful whether you'll understand most of them once they actually open their mouth.

No need to learn Dutch, spare yourself the emberrasment of being replied to in English. Learning Dutch is really hard, always remember that nothing here makes any sense, including the language.

The Dutch like to state that Dutch is a very hard language to learn. Granted, there are some tough spots, but if you know your languages well enough, you shouldn't have any real problems adapting to it. Take it seriously, and you should be able to pick it up.

I guess it's somewhere in between those two. On the one hand 4 months of sink-or-swim survival in The Hague with classes should probably cover the basics, you'll definitely won't need to fall back to point and grunt as often. On the other hand, Dutch is probably a bit of a counterintuitive language in many ways and it also relies heavily on idiom (which varies with dialect, and let's not venture across the border with Belgium just yet). Also, there's no hand holding with specific sentence structure, and the use of cases is only rudimentary. So if you compare it to a language like French or German, I'd rate Dutch as being a lot more difficult to learn well.

Fortunately, it seems the Dutch have reached some sort of consensus about that and sort of given up on it as well. So even if you mess up and butcher the grammar the Dutch are probably more likely to understand you (or be more forgiving about it) than the French or Germans. Sloppy grammar, poor style and "broken" sentences are, well, the rule rather than the exception much to the continued chagrin of language purists.

So I guess you should be alright if you put in effort, especially if you put in effort in pronunciation.

[Fragony]

Of course it can be learned with some effort but you will never understand it, the nuance will always be lost to you if you try. People also just won't apreciate it if you try to as it is a waste of time to not just communicate in English. I suggest not bothering at all, The Hague is a really international enviroment and nobody expects it from you. If you really intend to stay here you will pick it up as you go, but it will take a lot more than a few classes.

Remember a proverb we have here: time is money. Don't expect any courtacy if you speak a bit Dutch

[tibilicus]

Thank you all for the helpful replies. I've heard living in Leiden would be cheaper than Den Haag so I'm still weighing up the idea of commuting in from Leiden as I've heard it is not far. I think I will make a solid effort in learning Dutch. Obviously my academic studies will take priority but I'm going to set myself the target of studying the language for at least a couple of hours each day. I imagine I'll still use English in many interactions though, such as ordering food. From what I can remember the Dutch restaurant etiquette is very much in-line with Fragony's proverb. I have fond memories of being told I had occupied a table for too long one evening in Amsterdam. I ahd been seated for 30 minutes..

[Fragony]

Leiden is an incredibly boring place, there really is nothing to do. There is a huge and depressingly dull erea near the station that is the University of Leiden, there is nothing to to do and the centre is full of white trash, no fun to be had there. Much better of in The Hague or Rotterdam.

Edit: I suggest you find a place in Rotterdam by the way. It's awesome nowadays, and you will be in Leiden in minutes

[Hax]

Fragony, I don't think you studied in Leiden, now did you?

Additionally, Rotterdam-Leiden is still a good 60 minutes, if not more.

[Fragony]

Fragony, I don't think you studied in Leiden, now did you?

Additionally, Rotterdam-Leiden is still a good 60 minutes, if not more.

For a while. It's a highly reknowned university but Leiden itself is boring. Rotterdam is bursting with life, it's the closest to a real city we got to offer, is full of fellow expats, and it will take half an hour or so to get to Leiden, it took me 60 minutes from Amersfoort. In Leiden Tib's will probably feel lost and lonely, so I really recommend Rotterdam instead. It's also there where the kind of jobs he's looking for are (more in The Hague but The Hague is really close)

Edit: forget about learning Dutch Tib's, you won't need to be able to. Put your efforts in German and French, it might be assumed that you speak it and just get a text in it.

[tibilicus]

Rotterdam is also a very good university but I still feel Leiden has a lot going for it. As mentioned, Leiden's Institute for Public Policy is based in Den Haag so if I didn't live there I would still be commuting into Den Haag on a daily basis. Apparently quite a few Leiden students actually get housing in Den Haag as there's more of it going around. I may accept an offer from Leiden but apply for something in Rotterdam too. I guess its a question of whether I want to be around other students or around more expats. Den Haag looks like a cool city though. It's surprising because whenever anyone talks about the Netherlands they only mention Amsterdam. So many other nice places people just don't bother to go...

[Fragony]

Den Haag is a nice town. It's also close to Leiden. It's your mental wellbeing that I am concerned with, I don't think you will be happy in Leiden. It's a small town without anything to do. I am just talking about housing, if you take the train to Leiden it's a minutes walk to the university from the station, You will also get there in no time from Den Haag but Rotterdam is a much cooler city to live, see it as a pocket-Manhattan

[tibilicus]

How long is the train from Rotterdam to Den Haag? Is housing not too difficult to get there?

[Tellos Athenaios]

How long is the train from Rotterdam to Den Haag? Is housing not too difficult to get there?

You might want to bookmark this public transport route planning site: http://9292.nl/en#

[Fragony]

How long is the train from Rotterdam to Den Haag? Is housing not too difficult to get there?

Housing is difficult everywhere, always expect to pay seemingly unreasonably much money, that's the cost of living here, housing in the Netherlands is extremily expensive, I can easily ask for 1000 a month for my pretty small appartment and I don't exactly live in a hotspot of activity, you would do well making that your first priority. But you ge something back, Leiden Rotterdam and The Hague are all really close to eachother. Delft is also close. Leiden rotterdam and Delft are all in the top 50 of best universities of the world and within a 30 minute radius of eachother at most. You can follow courses in any of them at will if you want, if you want to do a course in Amsteram feel free to do so, all it takes is a yearly fee and you can study whatever you fancy wherever you fancy, you are not bound to an university

[Hax]

Fragony, consult the damn site of the OV. It takes you over an hour to get from Rotterdam to Leiden.

[Fragony]

Fragony, consult the damn site of the OV. It takes you over an hour to get from Rotterdam to Leiden.

Not saying it isn't so but it didn't use to be. There used to be a direct line from Amersfoort and it took 60 minutes and Amersfoort is WAY further away, after having to step over it took a lot more. I can't imagine Rotterdam to Leiden taking an hour though, they are really close. I sometimes had to go to Rotterdam because a friend lives there and it certainly didn't take that long, I think 20 minutes or so. But that was a while ago I don't know how it is now but it can't have changed all that much.

Look at it http://www.google.nl/search?hl=nl&au...U_ad4u-hzzM%3A

[Hax]

www.ns.nl

​Look at it.

[Fragony]

Your word is good enough. I don't understand why it takes that much longer now though. It takes me 60 minutes or so to travel to Rotterdam or The Hague and I am from the other side of the Neds. Something must have get starting sucking really badly if Leiden to Rotterdam takes an hour, i could probably do it on bike

Aren't you from Driebergen? Compare the distance between Amersfoort and Driebergen to the distance between Leiden and The Hague or Rotterdam. No idea why the train takes that long

It takes me 45 minuted to go to Zeist on a bike

http://www.google.nl/search?hl=nl&au...U_ad4u-hzzM%3A

[Hax]

Sorry for snapping at you, been a weird day.

Yeah, I guess it's comparable, seeing how you have to go through Utrecht or Wageningen to get to Driebergen from Amersfoort.

[Fragony]

Sorry for snapping at you, been a weird day.

Yeah, I guess it's comparable, seeing how you have to go through Utrecht or Wageningen to get to Driebergen from Amersfoort.

That's ok

[The Stranger]

Fragony, consult the damn site of the OV. It takes you over an hour to get from Rotterdam to Leiden.

its 35 to 40 min, which isnt that bad. and from rotterdam to the hague, station to station is like 20-25 min. and his courses are in the hague