So I'm moving to the Netherlands (potentially)...

[Tellos Athenaios]

1) How difficult is Dutch to learn, as an English speaker? I'm aware a lot of people in the Netherlands speak English but that isn't the point. When I've lived abroad in the past (France) I've always made an effort to learn the language. For me, I feel you owe it to the country your in to understand their language. Even if its just to understand the evening news. If I were to speak Dutch everyday and receive classes, is four months to practical use reasonable?

Learning Dutch is definitely a good idea, whether or not you will end up quite as happy with the results as you'd like. You owe it to yourself more than anything, especially once formal paperwork is involved. The idea that the Dutch will deal with English just fine is a bit of a misconception. Plenty do but you'll be encountering lots of old people (who grew up with a lot less of English in their lives and education); and even if they might be able to communicate in English in writing just fine, it is doubtful whether you'll understand most of them once they actually open their mouth.

No need to learn Dutch, spare yourself the emberrasment of being replied to in English. Learning Dutch is really hard, always remember that nothing here makes any sense, including the language.

The Dutch like to state that Dutch is a very hard language to learn. Granted, there are some tough spots, but if you know your languages well enough, you shouldn't have any real problems adapting to it. Take it seriously, and you should be able to pick it up.

I guess it's somewhere in between those two. On the one hand 4 months of sink-or-swim survival in The Hague with classes should probably cover the basics, you'll definitely won't need to fall back to point and grunt as often. On the other hand, Dutch is probably a bit of a counterintuitive language in many ways and it also relies heavily on idiom (which varies with dialect, and let's not venture across the border with Belgium just yet). Also, there's no hand holding with specific sentence structure, and the use of cases is only rudimentary. So if you compare it to a language like French or German, I'd rate Dutch as being a lot more difficult to learn well.

Fortunately, it seems the Dutch have reached some sort of consensus about that and sort of given up on it as well. So even if you mess up and butcher the grammar the Dutch are probably more likely to understand you (or be more forgiving about it) than the French or Germans. Sloppy grammar, poor style and "broken" sentences are, well, the rule rather than the exception much to the continued chagrin of language purists.

So I guess you should be alright if you put in effort, especially if you put in effort in pronunciation.

[Fragony]

Of course it can be learned with some effort but you will never understand it, the nuance will always be lost to you if you try. People also just won't apreciate it if you try to as it is a waste of time to not just communicate in English. I suggest not bothering at all, The Hague is a really international enviroment and nobody expects it from you. If you really intend to stay here you will pick it up as you go, but it will take a lot more than a few classes.

Remember a proverb we have here: time is money. Don't expect any courtacy if you speak a bit Dutch

[tibilicus]

Thank you all for the helpful replies. I've heard living in Leiden would be cheaper than Den Haag so I'm still weighing up the idea of commuting in from Leiden as I've heard it is not far. I think I will make a solid effort in learning Dutch. Obviously my academic studies will take priority but I'm going to set myself the target of studying the language for at least a couple of hours each day. I imagine I'll still use English in many interactions though, such as ordering food. From what I can remember the Dutch restaurant etiquette is very much in-line with Fragony's proverb. I have fond memories of being told I had occupied a table for too long one evening in Amsterdam. I ahd been seated for 30 minutes..

[Fragony]

Leiden is an incredibly boring place, there really is nothing to do. There is a huge and depressingly dull erea near the station that is the University of Leiden, there is nothing to to do and the centre is full of white trash, no fun to be had there. Much better of in The Hague or Rotterdam.

Edit: I suggest you find a place in Rotterdam by the way. It's awesome nowadays, and you will be in Leiden in minutes

[Hax]

Fragony, I don't think you studied in Leiden, now did you?

Additionally, Rotterdam-Leiden is still a good 60 minutes, if not more.

[Fragony]

Fragony, I don't think you studied in Leiden, now did you?

Additionally, Rotterdam-Leiden is still a good 60 minutes, if not more.

For a while. It's a highly reknowned university but Leiden itself is boring. Rotterdam is bursting with life, it's the closest to a real city we got to offer, is full of fellow expats, and it will take half an hour or so to get to Leiden, it took me 60 minutes from Amersfoort. In Leiden Tib's will probably feel lost and lonely, so I really recommend Rotterdam instead. It's also there where the kind of jobs he's looking for are (more in The Hague but The Hague is really close)

Edit: forget about learning Dutch Tib's, you won't need to be able to. Put your efforts in German and French, it might be assumed that you speak it and just get a text in it.

[tibilicus]

Rotterdam is also a very good university but I still feel Leiden has a lot going for it. As mentioned, Leiden's Institute for Public Policy is based in Den Haag so if I didn't live there I would still be commuting into Den Haag on a daily basis. Apparently quite a few Leiden students actually get housing in Den Haag as there's more of it going around. I may accept an offer from Leiden but apply for something in Rotterdam too. I guess its a question of whether I want to be around other students or around more expats. Den Haag looks like a cool city though. It's surprising because whenever anyone talks about the Netherlands they only mention Amsterdam. So many other nice places people just don't bother to go...