I don't know if it's curiosity or masochism which drives me, but I had another look at the OP. Unsurprisingly, I immediately found a number of outright lies, half-truths, misconceptions and errors. I know now that pointing out misconceptions serves no purpose(the receiver just won't understand it), so I'll highlight two glaring errors instead:

1.

This is completely false. The WHO gives the total number of annual deaths from malaria as an estimated 660.000, with an uncertainty range of 490 000 to 836 000. 40% of what the OP states. Further, the OP makes the claim that those 1 to 2 million deaths are just the ones that could've been saved by DDT. If we assume that widespread use of DDT would not wipe out malaria completely, the total number of malaria deaths the OP claims is even bigger.

EDIT: Just in case you want to argue that the WHO stat refers to the present day, while the OP talks about malaria deaths from DDT was regulated in the 70's, here is the number of deaths at different times last century. DDT was banned(in the west) in the 70's and 80's, and the number of deaths were 578.000 in 1970 and 897.000 in 1990.

2.

Also wrong, of course. We have less forest now than we did yesterday, and will have even less tomorrow. This UN-report gives the following numbers for the forested area in the world for 1990, 2000 and 2005:

1990: 4 077 291
2000: 3 988 610
2005: 3 952 025

In other words, a steady decline in the last decades.



This is the kind of nonsense the TR really should check out properly before he parrots nonsense spewed by clueless idiots and demagogues. With a minimum of effort and access to google, you could fix these errors in no time.

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funny, i felt the same way.


mine either, but what they say in video etc is that releasing c02 in the air is releasing pollutants that are harmful for the environment.






Please give me list of scientist and how many, that would agree with this statement or similar. Man made causes will cause global warming and destructive consequences in the near future and imitate care should be taken to stop c02 emisons.

Not to mention watch my video on op to show how they conducted their polling to make it look like global warming was the majority opinion.
free online

Global Warming:#A Scientific and Biblical Expose' of Climate Change free online
gives many alternative reasons for global warming, shows recent sun activity is more likely cause of warming, that increase temperature is cause of increase c02 not other way around well as pointing out, a warmer climate overall is better than a cooler climate throughout human history. Shows how global warming polices kill over 1,000,000 in Africa every year. goes into death threats and other things made at those who “deny” man made climate change.
http://www.answersingenesis.org/arti...rming-politics


thank you i will look into it,lol. But as pointed out in doc above, those that even reject the scenario given, would agree we have a effect, how can we not with c02 released?just how much and to what extent.



agreed



part of thread, i think it not decided and most likely not true, but that is only small part of op, i care of the other stuff more.




no, just to show bias exist.



did you expect no one to fight back? many people have, if their is issue you see wrong that he did let me know. I ask that you at least watch it before goggling a internet "response", i browsed it saw nothing of importance substance.




agreed




true good point, i like you.



what do you expect them to say? i would read up alittle more on it.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...n-climategate/
http://www.thenewamerican.com/tech/e...teacup-tempest
http://www.dailytech.com/Editorial+F...ticle23370.htm




i think you should reread our discsuion from beginning, you have misunderstood, hard to if you pick up midway through, also reason you said i gave no reference.



thank you for response to op

first acording to this source, the one from video perr reviwed jounral [also wiki]
Nayyar GML, Breman JG, Newton PN, Herrington J (2012). "Poor-quality antimalarial drugs in southeast Asia and sub-Saharan Africa". Lancet Infectious Diseases 12 (6): 488–96

1.2 million died in 2010 notice what else wiki says " The actual number of deaths is not known with certainty, as accurate data is unavailable in many rural areas, and many cases are undocumented"


also look here
WHO places at about 1.272 million deaths per year world wide in 2002, according to the WHO World Health Report 2004.
Due to various under reporting and malaria related complications the actual number is estimated to be as high as 3 million deaths per year. "Conquering The Intolerable Burden Of Malaria: What's New, What's Needed: A Summary" Joel G. Breman, Martin S. Alilio, And Anne Mills.


“The numbers are staggering: there are 300 to 500 million cases every year; and
between one to three million deaths, mostly of children, attributed to this disease
[malaria]. Every 40 seconds a child dies of malaria, resulting in a daily loss of more
than 2000 young lives worldwide. These estimates render malaria the pre-eminent Estimate of world deforestation
Increasing Deforestation Ratestropical parasitic disease and one of the top three killers among communicable
diseases.” (Sachs and Malaney, 2002; p 680)
http://www.nicholas.duke.edu/solutio...or-poverty.pdf



Beyond mortality, malaria causes morbidity through fever, weakness, malnutrition, anemia, spleen
diseases and vulnerability to other diseases. According to Bremen (2001), malarious patients
experience asymptomatic parasitemia, acute febrile, chronic debilitation, and complications of
pregnancy. The health consequences of malaria vary in terms of severity, but the global impact of
malaria on human health, productivity, and general well-being is profound. The joint mortality
and morbidity impacts of malaria are estimated to be 45 million DALYs (disability adjusted life
years) in 2000 or nearly 11% of all infectious diseases (Guerin et al., 2002).




also notice what your own link said
a reduction in malaria mortality rates by more than 25% globally since 2000 and by 33% in the WHO African Region.



but you than ask
" If we assume that widespread use of DDT would not wipe out malaria completely, the total number of malaria deaths the OP claims is even bigger"


that is why you should listen to my op material, we did and have wiped out ddt and can, this is why it is no place that used ddt.


but really think what your arguing here, we only let hundreds of thousands die a year, so those bird dont have higher mortality rate from week egg shells.



trees
I am willing to be wrong, it may have been referring to america onlyi will go back and check. But please provide link with total forest area i could not find. But i said trees not forested are. for example for every one tree cut down [in america and many countries] you must plant six, yet forested are is the same. Not to mention tree harvesting areas, just replant more trees so area same/trees more. Than there is selective cutting witch keeps more trees than clear-cut and area same. But even assuming area= amount of trees it doesent, we are getting right even worldwide.

"Forest growth nationally has exceeded harvest since the 1940s. By 1997, forest growth exceeded harvest by 42 percent and the volume of forest growth was 380 percent greater than it had been in 1920." The greatest gains have been seen on the East Coast (with average volumes of wood per acre almost doubling since the '50s) which was the area most heavily logged by European settlers beginning in the 1600s, soon after their arrival.


notice in bold,average wood per acre double, so that would put worldwide as almost double total, not less than


"That said, we’re happy to have learned that the United States–which has an estimated 300 million hectares of forests–has more trees now than it did 100 years ago.

Today, trees are being harvested less than they were in the 1900s,"
http://www.wendmag.com/greenery/2011...100-years-ago/

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Lot's of confused rambling, no coherent argument.

I am not surprised.

No, that's not my argument. As I've said, I do not believe you to be competent enough to understand such things, so I have kept myself to pointing out straight factual errors only. Thus, I make no argument at all. Just the numbers. If I see that you re able to understand such things, I may move on to actual arguments later. Considering this post, I won't hold my breath, however.

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I don't think you understand TR's point. Passion, rhetoric and walls of text can defeat facts. Pray hard enough and you can get a rocket to the moon. It's nothing to do with science and the accumulation of knowledge using the scientific method.

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i fully understood, but as anyone can see you ignored why your facts were wrong and pick one thing to take out and ignore facts proving you wrong. You seemed to understand that part hmmm. Ye cant understand were i copy pasted numbers so you cant blame grammar lol

notice the facts he ignored, that is why he did not quote them. In case you missed thew numbers here they are

1.2 million died in 2010


WHO places at about 1.272 million deaths per year world wide in 2002, according to the WHO World Health Report 2004.
Due to various under reporting and malaria related complications the actual number is estimated to be as high as 3 million deaths per year.


“The numbers are staggering: there are 300 to 500 million cases every year; and
between one to three million deaths, mostly of children, attributed to this disease


The joint mortality
and morbidity impacts of malaria are estimated to be 45 million DALYs


[malaria]. Every 40 seconds a child dies of malaria, resulting in a daily loss of more
than 2000 young lives worldwide.


most these also say these are low estimates
so if your a example of the scientific method, not reading post ignoring all contrary numbers making baseless claims, please dont say i use your method.

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You claim another source reports 1.2 million deaths in 2010.

WHO claims 660.000 deaths. WHO is the superior source for this kind of thing, sorry. 660.000 deaths is the correct figure.

EDIT: Also note that DDT is not banned in sub-saharan Africa today, where 90%-ish of the deaths come from. Also note that the spike in the years around 2000 has little to do with not spraying DDT. I suggest you read up on that. The article you yourself provided is a good start, and it's only 19 pages long(including literature). It highlights the need for more research on the links between malaria, deforestation and poverty, and lists a number of factors explaining the continued existance of malaria. Lo and behold, not using DDT isn't one of the factors listed. Also note that the 1-3 million deaths quote you take isn't used in the article as a fact, it's used to set the mood; ie. the literary qualities of the quote is what the authors pay attention to, not the figures it provides. When they showed the extent of malaria they used numbers from, you guessed it, the WHO. The ones I used.

Total fail.

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you found one source that says 660,000, i found multiple, all saying over 1 million and that is low estimate including who.


WHO estimates 300-500 million cases of malaria, with over one million deaths each year.
The main burden of malaria (more than 90%) is in Africa south of the Sahara with an estimated annual number of deaths over 1 million.
http://www.who.int/water_sanitation_...es/malaria/en/




infections and over 1 million deaths each year.
john hopkins malaria research institute
http://malaria.jhsph.edu/about_malaria/


killing more than 1 million people annually.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2760896/



Malaria kills 1.2 million people every year, a finding that has implications for global efforts to eliminate the disease
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/20...eaths-research


etc etc combine with the many i posted on last post.



you said
"Also note that DDT is not banned in sub-saharan Africa today, where 90%-ish of the deaths come from. Also note that the spike in the years around 2000 has little to do with not spraying DDT"


please provide were you see that, than show me were ddt is used and not effective? why was ddt able to eliminate malaria in so many countries before?.


your own site
ndoor spraying with residual insecticides
Indoor residual spraying (IRS) with insecticides is a powerful way to rapidly reduce malaria transmission. Its full potential is realized when at least 80% of houses in targeted areas are sprayed. Indoor spraying is effective for 3–6 months, depending on the insecticide used and the type of surface on which it is sprayed. DDT can be effective for 9–12 months in some cases. Longer-lasting forms of existing IRS insecticides, as well as new classes of insecticides for use in IRS programmes, are under development.




you said
"It highlights the need for more research on the links between malaria, deforestation and poverty, and lists a number of factors explaining the continued existance of malaria. Lo and behold, not using DDT isn't one of the factors listed."


that is terrible logic,its like saying how do we lose wight,well its listed here on how we gain weight as overeating,not enough exersize etc but it says nothing of lowering amount of calorie intake as cause of overweight. No-one said not using ddt will cause malaria lol. I said not using ddt in areas that have malaria causes deaths, it could be taken out as we did before,but for green dragon policies.

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I don't believe in the green lies and you aren't exactly helping me out, underestimating intelligence, it's never smart. You make me look dumb because we agree on some things

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A few things:

First of all, it would be a lot easier to follow your 'discussions' if they had focus, and coherent logic, rather than rambling from topic to topic, held together only by a glut of untrustworthy sources, poor logic, and misrepresentation of others' positions and statements.

Second, I did follow the discussion related to sourcing, which is the only part I responded to, so following the pointless and meandering remainder was unnecessary anyway.

Third, even following the sourcing discussion was superfluous. The only relevant point was that your attempt to paraphrase a particular post by HoreTore resulted in something that in no way resembled the point or the content of his original. Such blatant failures of quotation make all your other sources and quotations suspect, and I refuse to wade through the mire until you amend your methods and make it at least slightly feasible that I'll get something worthwhile out of reading your manifestos.

Fourth, running a spellchecker, and adhering to the norms of English capitalization, would do wonders in improving the readability of your prose. Sure, I can deduce that 'discsuion' was supposed to be 'discussion', but it slows me down when I'm already staring at way more words than necessary.

Ajax

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multiple topics are brought up so i must respond to multiple topics. You claim i use "untrustworthy sources, poor logic, and misrepresentation of others' positions and statements" i wont wait for specific examples as you have shown unable to follow the same posts you criticize. Do you not think you could be doing as you have before and have been misrepresentation of others' positions and statements, my own?.



you claimed no source when a few were given so not sure what you mean here.

please provide specific example.

ty for advice.

Olny srmat poelpe can raed this. I cdnuolt blveiee that I cluod aulaclty uesdnatnrd what I was rdanieg. The phaonmneal pweor of the hmuan mnid, aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in what oredr the ltteers in a word are, the olny iprmoatnt tihng is that the first and last ltteer be in the rghit pclae. The rset can be a taotl mses and you can still raed it wouthit a porbelm. This is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the word as a wlohe. Amzanig huh? Yaeh and I awlyas tghuhot slpeling was ipmorantt! If you can raed this psas it on!!

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All right, here's your specific example.

Exhibit 1: Posts by HoreTore

Exhibit 2: Post by total relism

HoreTore states consistently that CO2 is both a pollutant and a fundamental resource, and the relevant aspect will vary depending on the context. total relism claims that HoreTore claimed that no one says it is a pollutant (HoreTore never says this), and now is changing his tune (there is no change of tune). total relism's paraphrase of HoreTore's claims completely misrepresents HoreTore's position. This is quote-fail. If total relism apologizes to HoreTore for misrepresenting his position, I will consider giving attention to more of his arguments. Until then, I cannot trust him to be arguing from an ethical or accurate basis.

Specific enough for you?

Ajax

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By the late sixties Mosquitoes were becoming immune to DDT.

In the amounts needed to control mosquitoes DDT will cause human health issues such as diabetes and birth defects.

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I doubt many are talking about "destructive consequences in the near future" but I guess you should define what "near future" is in years/decades first. Why a lot of scientists think we need to act fast is because it takes time for us to change and we are already witnessing positive feedback.

You gave links to several videos. BTW, the "Al Gore sued by over 30,000 scientists for fraud" is hilarious. It never happened and John Coleman has no basis for his claims in that video.

I already have commented on why deaths threats are silly to focus on. http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/20...change-deniers or http://www.csmonitor.com/Science/201...parisons-video It goes both ways.

The video does go through most of the standard objections. If you want to do a lot of reading then this list is good start http://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php It has answers of up to three levels of complexity(basic, intermediate, and advanced) so most people should be able to understand what is being said. It also comes with links to the studies for further reading.

I think there are several good series on YouTube. But my favorite is Potholer54 who has made 28 episode series explaining climate change, and he also goes through the skeptical arguments. He will generally provide links for further reading too. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52KL...fHsWPfAIyI7VAP

I notice you like videos and links with biblical stuff in it, so maybe you will hate Potholer for also making videos showing the fallacies of creationists. But then you will love Skeptical Science because the guy who created it, John Cook, is into evangelical stuff.

There is also the two-part Climate Change Misconceptions https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3bgEIZ-mPQ

It is a bit difficult to figure out what the remaining is a response too. So I'll guess.

I guess that is about Bjørn Lomborg.

Look I have watched it, and, as I said, Lomborg is full of half truths. We have the usual foundation of how it is a fear industry (OMG the kids) then "experts" talking about how it is not gonna be a big problem, and then, the best part of documentary, alternative energies and stuff. It is funny how he can use James Hansen, but only for stuff about IPCC and nuclear power, and not about his very pessimistic views of global warming. But at least he had him in, to have some big name alarmist climatologist involved, I guess. Nothing about ocean acidification, nothing about permafrost melting that means increasing amounts of methane being released, nor does he touch upon increasing droughts in certain areas. White paint and some dikes and we are all set.

Spending more on R&D is obviously a great idea, yet the political will have generally not been there because too many still think it isn't bad or that we are not the cause. How can Cool It convince politicians to spend more money, when he makes it look like it's something that easily can be fixed in the far future? duh.

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Allright.

I say the paper is irrelevant as a source because the paper is about pregnancies, not death toll. In TR's head, this is read as if I'm saying pregnancy deaths are irrelevant. This explains so much about TR.

No wonder he always "wins" his debates - it's kinda hard to lose when you can't understand other peoples arguments.

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Youtube Video

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I have no idea what your refering to as nowere does it say 600,000. In fact it sources both the Centers for Disease Control and The Global Fund Web site, authors. Malaria. [Accessed August 1, 2009]. As why they say it kills over 1 million than goes on to say it really kills more. Read again.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2760896/#B1





nice editing, as i said, you only read part of my response [if any] than set up a strawman. The reason you see a problem is you did not read my other posts, he is fully right, it can be both good and bad as i even said oxygen could be as well on post 13. That is why what i said is important, i said when teaching climate change environmental issues, c02 is referred to as a pollutant, and any release of c02 as polluting the environment. This topic is on global warming false teaching etc not the importance of c02 and if that is taught separate of these issues.


so i ask again
multiple topics are brought up so i must respond to multiple topics. You claim i use "untrustworthy sources, poor logic, and misrepresentation of others' positions and statements" i wont wait for specific examples as you have shown unable to follow the same posts you criticize





how about just give me a list of scientist matching the amount that reject global warming, that agree with your position, i think its clear your dodging to me.Hopefully realizing that their is not this great majority that your article claimed [using false logic as well,your article].


this video free online
http://www.answersingenesis.org/medi...global-warming



and that somehow makes it go away?thanks for link but i see false info right off, debates are good my friend you can find some on my op.

thanks for youtube video, i will look when i get more time, would you also see the other side and objections?

I would not hat anyone for arguing their point, in fact i hope you bring up his videos when i do creation/evolution.


you said
so your upset that in a doc he did not cover everything? i think you have missed the whole idea of his doc.

as far as political spending more money look under agendas on op.




or we could all go to source to see what it says, i like that idea best.

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Me dodging? The consensus among the scientists that study this is pretty clear. You are now attempting a majority=truth, except the apparent majority you cling on to has little knowledge about it in the first place!

You seem to refuse looking at the science, and keep yourself locked in an endless loop of your favorite articles and videos. The proper term for that is Motivated Reasoning.

I watched that already! That was the reason I gave you links that addressed their objections. It is all there for you to check out, and it is backed up with the actual studies.

Makes what go away? Use better quoting in the future please. If it is about death threats, then I will try to clear: death threats are never OK, but since everyone gets them they don't tell anything about the other side. But it sure does feel good to be a victim while the other side are all evil.

And of course my links are false info (more Motivated Reasoning) Anything that ruins your black and white view of the two opposite sides simply cannot be right!

Since I have watched all the videos that were available in your OP (several I had already seen before) I already have gone through the other side and their objections. They belong to a minority view, and some of the stuff is actually so obvious, that you don't even need to be a scientist to see where they go wrong.

You can easily find them yourself, as I have no interest in participating in something that undoubtedly will feel more futile than this debate.

Then please tell me what the whole idea of his movie is.

Agenda 21 and NWO? Or did I miss a more devious conspiracy somewhere? Anyway, I don't have much time: I would already have located the second shooter, if it hadn't been for those black vans blocking me on the way to Area 51.

Trust no one.

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All irrelevant. You misquoted HoreTore. Own it or remain disreputable.

Ajax

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^

Most orgahs know I am not buying that global warming crap, but if you play a poor game you lose

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My original post

Your reply


actually it does say the incorrect figure of 1-3 million an I have copypasted and highlighted it from the website.
when you click the actual source your link used to verify the amount written down as malaria deaths the link is broken and when you check the actual WHO or CDC websites as supposedly used by the link the numbers are vastly less.

The reason for the difference between the CDC and WHO is probably the age of the CDC data but it's still waaaaayyyyy more accurate than your links




now if we click on the little tiny numbers after the 1-3 million were directed to the source website for this figure they say is malaria deaths

but I will save you the trouble here is the info from the CDC copypasted below

http://www.cdc.gov/MALARIA/

see that bolded word there 655,000 people died so the original website claims a source that refutes its own arguement



WHO Webite Number of malaria deaths

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