Regional Descriptions: Help the EBII Team

I can do that. Give me a few hours.

Awesome :) If you feel like editing it and throwing in anything off the top of your head that would be good too.

Here it is.
I'm not a historian or a writer, so i would appreciate it if you could edit this if anything does not feel right.
I had trouble finding specific tribes of Saurashtra and I have separated the Sudarshana Lake description so you may choose to add it as a unique building/wonder just like the Sabean dam.
Saurashtra Provence Description V.1.doc

If you want another format instead of .Doc just ask

This is my interpretation of the periplus voyage near Saurashtra 50AD.


and an update on the provice description map its all happening in the east.

Well, I'm gonna give this another shot and since Lakonike has been completed by now, I'm planning to go and write one of these for the province of the Odrysai. I've requested some books via the network of libraries (at least the ones I have access to) which seem useful to me, but suggestions are very, very welcome. For starters I plan to read the following:

-Thrace & the Tracians, Aleksandur Fol (cannot type an accent in his first name on my phone)
-The Odrysian kingdom of Thrace; Orpheus unmasked, Z.H. Archibald
-The policy of Darius and Xerxes towards Thrace and Macedonia, Miroslav Ivanov Vasilev

I just volunteered in the volunteer thread to do grammar checks if yall need them (I won't include yall in my grammar checks haha) so if you want any help with that just holler at me and tell me what to do :)

Well I'd probably go over Chap's description if I were you, thanks

Dear, Adalingum

Here are some good links to get started:

www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper
www.jstor.org
https://archive.org/details/texts


The internet is also useful for archaeological reports by searching

Excavation Archaeology "name of site or modern day town" .pdf

This has good results for me, just make sure its from a professional. The .pdf is important as most of the time this is the format they use. Then you can check their bibliography for recommended reading as they sometimes talk about the history of the place.

I have gathered information on the western oasis's of Egypt but i have not investigated it or written anything yet.

Alrighty!

Originally Posted by z3n

Well I'd probably go over Chap's description if I were you, thanks

Sorry, but no, Mithridates VI Eupator is currently going through Chap's description, so there might end up being revisions...

Ok guys, here is the refined version of Dahyu Mazasakata. Please critique at will. @athanaric, great job with this! I took and fixed up your work. Great job in getting the hard part out of the way!

Primary Sources:
Arrian, Anabasis of Alexander the Great
Herodotos, Histories
Strabo, Geographia


Secondary:
Encylopedia Iranica articles
Attalos.org
Lancus Curtius @Penelope
Livius.org


Traveler's Log: Coming from the south along the Jaxartes river, one enters the land the Massagetai. The land is flat and quite dry, especially in the summer. The land is also hard and breeds harder men, and only near the Jaxartes river can agriculture occur at all. The river forms the northern borders of this land, and south it stretches a massive plain. Here dwell the most fearsome of the Saka nomads: the Massagetai. They are superb horseman, but also know how to fight on foot. They are superbly well armored in bronze and can make very difficult foes even for the bravest of soldiers! For a nomadic king wishing to invade the effeminate settled southerners, the Messegatae can make superb allies. However, for a settled king wishing to bring order to these nomads, it may be wise to think about Kyros the Great, and how he died...

Geography:
The geographer Strabo writes:

“Statements to the following effect are made concerning the Massagetae: that some of them inhabit mountains, some plains, others marshes which are formed by the rivers, and others the islands in the marshes. But the country is inundated most of all, they say, by the Araxes River, which splits into numerous branches and empties by its other mouths into the other sea on the north, though by one single mouth it reaches the Hyrcanian Gulf. […] Silver is not found in their country, and only a little iron, but brass and gold in abundance. (Strabo: Geographika, XI/8/6)”

This region encompasses the plains between the Syr Darya (ancient Jaxartes river), the Aral lake and the Amu Darya. This is a harsh, arid land, with hot summers, cold winters, and a dry climate. It is mostly flat and dominated by steppe vegetation and semi-deserts. The riverbanks and the shores of the Aral Sea allow for fishing and agriculture. As for wildlife, there are various sorts of game, especially Saiga antelopes and wild sheep and horses as well as bustards. Even large predators such as the Caspian Tiger wander in the wetlands. Eagles patrol the skies and, once captured and trained, are cherished hunting companions for the steppe peoples.
The region of Dahyu Mazsakata comprises modern day Kyzlorda and Southern Khazakstan provinces in the country of Khazakstan as well as Navoiy and Bhukara regions of Uzbekistan. Unlike in ancient times, the region is far drier than it was before, limiting populations to areas around the river Jaxartes.

People, Society, and Government:
Due to a lack of proper written sources, very little is known about the people of the region, except that they identified themselves as "Massegetai" or the Iranian form "Mazasakata." The name itself can be broken down into three parts: Maz-saka-ta; Maz means "Man", Saka means "Deer," and the ta refers to the plural case. Thus the overall name may translate to "Deer Men" or possibly "Descendants of the Deer."

Culturally, the Messegetai they are unique amongst the other Saka. For example, on Massegetai religious beliefs, Herodotos remarks “The sun is the only god whom they worship; they sacrifice horses to him; the reasoning is that he is the swiftest of the gods, and therefore they give him the swiftest of mortal things.” ( Hdt 1.216) This may reflect the increasing importance of the horse for the Massegetai, which was another factor in the transition from a culture of pastoralist cattle herders to a culture of true nomads. There are suggestions that the Massagetae were the ones who first developed horse armor, thus instigating the development of the fully armored cavalry that was the pride of ancient Iranian and Medieval European knighthood. This is hinted at in Herodotos' description of their martial traditions. Similarly, Strabo writes: “They are good horsemen and foot-soldiers; they use bows, short swords, breastplates, and sagares made of brass; and in their battles they wear headbands and belts made of gold.” Militarily, Herodotos mentions that the Massegetai were “both great and warlike.” (Hdt 1.201) This is most certainly indicated by Kyros' campaign against the tribe and in the end, his whole army was annihilated, and Kyros' skull turned into a drinking cup (Hdt 1.214).

Archaeological finds attest to a development of a class society, with prominent burial mounds called Kurgans erected for important leaders. The political organization of the Massagetae seems to have been monarchy. Slavery was widespread and common but developed somewhat differently from slavery tradition in Mediterranean cultures. Women held a relatively high position compared to Mediterranean cultures an example being Queen Tomyris: Herodotos remarks that she had come to power with the death of her husband. (Hdt 1.205) However, as one source puts it, “it is not clear whether a parallel can be drawn between Saka-Massagetian society and its western neighbor, the matrilineal Sarmatian society.”1 Also, they were reported to share their wives amongst each other and to eat their dead. However, this may be a conflation of actual facts and Greek imagination.

In these parts of Central Asia, there appears to have been some form of coexistence between the nomadic Saka (or, in this particular case, Massagetae), and the sedentary farmers who settled the oases. The Saka, much like their various successors, were of great importance to trade between East Asia on one side and Europe, the Near East, and India on the other. It was in their own economic interest to keep open extensive trade routes that connected China with Persia, so as to profit from the revenue. Especially Bukhara, the region capital, was to become an important hub of trade and cultural innovation. Even after the Turkic invasions, Sogdian traders played an important role in the Silk Road business.

A final point is in regards to the Messagetai and the region of Chorasamia to the west. Strabo remarks that the people of Chorasamia were settled Massegetai tribesmen (Strabo 11.8.8). He does not mention any specific cultural differences between the two groups as despite the Chorasamians being more inclined for agriculture and a settled mode of life; culturally, they were very much in touch with their nomadic, Messagetai roots. Our evidence for the settled nature of the Chorasmians comes from archaeological studies conducted in the region, which have found both kurgans (nomadic burial tombs), complex irrigation networks, as well as walled fortresses that were geometrically oriented to withstand nomadic attacks (Rapoport 1991).


History:

The first reference to the Massegetai comes from Herodotos, who mentions that Kyros the Great (r. 576-530 BC) “had a desire to bring the Massagetai into subjection to himself.”(Hdt. 1.201) The reasons for the campaign, as supported by Herotodus are unsatisfactory: “for there were many strong reasons which incited him to it and urged him onwards [to conquer the Massegetai],--first the manner of his birth, that is to say the opinion held of him that he was more than a mere mortal man, and next the success which he had met with in his wars...” (Hdt 1.204) This does not seem like a good enough reason to conquer a bunch of nomads, although because the region had an abundance of gold, Kyros may have been thinking about economic benefits. Further, the passage suggests his confidence, having been successful in conflicts with the Lydians, Babylonians, etc, he felt strong enough to go against the Massegetai. It cannot be doubted that Kyros would have had extensive military experience, but it is unclear what his motivation was to move against the Massegetai, and Herodotos' argument for hubris and pride make little sense.

Regardless, Kyros went through with the plan and began to bridge the Jaxartes rivers and their branches when he encountered the entourage of the Massegetai queen, Tomyris. In essence, the latter told Kyros to go home, and Kyros' councilors agreed with her, except Kroisos, the (former) king of the Lydians. He argued that it was unseemly that Kyros should yield to the whims of a woman and they should press the attack (Hdt 207). Why Kroisos would do this is unclear, but likely having lost his kingdom to Kyros perhaps wished to be rid of the man; thus having some information about the power of the Massegetai, he willingly pushed Kyros to attack this tribe for his own benefit. After this, the war occurred, but despite initial Persian victories (including a battle where Tomyris' son was captured), Kyros and his army was utterly destroyed after a devastating battle, and his skull famously turned into a drinking cup for Tomyris (Hdt. 1.214).

This was the reported end of Kyros, who after forming a massive empire stretching from the Aegean to the borders of India, died not only to a bunch of nomads, but to a woman. Of course, this story is likely highly embellished. Problems start with the purpose of the campaign as we discussed before: Herodotos remarks that it was out of hubris; however, owing to Kyros' previous conquests of Media, Babylonia, and Lydia, in which he had made shrewd tactical and strategic decisions, he would have known the perils of fighting these nomads; further, there is seemingly nothing to gain by conquering these people. In the end, Herodotos' account is more moralizing than historical, in that Kyros “humbly” conquered an empire, but when his pride grew, he believed he could take on any opponent, and met his end to a bunch of nomads, and a woman no less.

In any case, the Massegetai had proved themselves historically as a Saka tribe not to be trifled with. The final battle between the Persians and Massegetai was remarked to be “the fiercest” Herodotos had ever heard, and involved an initial archery shootout then close-quarter melee (Hdt. 1.214). There is no doubt that the Massegetai employed armored horses which were likely proto-cataphract cavalry (Hdt 1.215) and they destroyed the Persian army.

Unfortunately, there are no more records of the Massegetai specifically until Alexander's conquests; it appears that even during the heyday of Achaemenid power, the Massegetai were left alone, no doubt owing to their victory over Kyros. During the conquests of Megas Alexandros in the Iranian plateau, the traitors Bessos and Spitamenes fled to the land of Massegetai and used their troops to harass and cause problems for Alexander in Baktria (Arrian 4.26). Alexander's general, Krateros was sent to deal with the Massegetai, but they “fled as fast as they could towards the desert. Following them up closely, he [Krateros] overtook those very men and more than 1,000 other Massagetian horsemen, not far from the desert. A fierce battle ensued, in which the Macedonians were victorious” (Arrian 4.27). This battle is interesting, because there it seems that the Massegetai were not “fleeing” from the Makedonians in fear, but rather to draw them deeper into the desert and defeat them there (Surena would employ similar tactics at Carrhae against M. Licinius Crassus); unfortunately for them, the Makedonian cavalry (likely Companion cavalry) was more than adequate to take on the Massegetai cavalry. In light of this and other defeats, the Massegetai decide to cut their losses by beheading Spitamenes and present his head to Alexander, hoping that he would not attack them (Arrian 4.27). There are no mentions that what happened afterwords with the Massegetai, but likely they were allowed to live in peace.

The last written reference to the Massegetai comes from Ammanius Marcellinus (AD 330-391) who remarks that the Alans were descendent from the Massegetai tribes (31.2). Further evidence is archaeological, as burial tombs being studied in the area around the northern Caspian sea (where the Alans lived) as well as studies near Tanais at the Don river (where the Alans reportedly migrated to) both contained burial tombs that were geometrically similar to ones being studied in the area of Dayhu Mazasaka. This, along with the account of Marecellinus may suggest that upon the Yeuzhi invasions (around the 1st-2nd centuries AD) had forced many of the Massegetai to migrate westwards and merge with the Alani.

Any conqueror of this territory will find themselves faced with stern opposition and an unforgiving continental climate, which, along with the open nature of the land, make it a daunting task to control the region. This province has the typical benefits and drawbacks of a steppe region; it will not offer many resources to sedentary factions. However, powerful and efficient nomadic cavalry troops may be available as auxiliaries. Nomadic factions should focus on developing trade routes and keeping an eye open for unwelcome visitors.

Just a little note: Maz-saka-ta, is far more likely to mean "Man-Deer-plural", from a contracted PIE *mon-g for "The Men-deer" or possibly "The descendants of the deer"...
I personally find it valid, cosidering that ungulates in the steppe were solar symbols and it might even speak for shamanic beliefs...

The great saka etymology doesn't really hold up (besides that it comes from medieval "made-up" etymologies), because even if comparing Iranian "massa", it yields Massa-ka-ta, which is "Great-adjective of quality-plural", something like "The Greatly ones" or "The Great-like ones"...

While about Marcellinvs remark, considering that burials in the area from the last centuries BCE increasigly are lined with round or rectangular gound-level chambers built of raw brick, like those of the lower Syr Darya/Yakhsha Arta River since the 4th century BCE, and they also show the positioning of the dead like contemporary Sauromatian burials in South of the Urala Mountains, I'd link it with the advent of Alantae in the region (the Shiji comes to mind, stating that the Yantsai (later Alanliao) lived 800 li from Kangju, exactly where this province is), who replaced the former circular-plan mausoleums with cruciform interior holding multiple burials...
I think that Marcellinvs was keeping literary topoi alive, since the Alantae now lived there, they must've been the Mazsakatae of olden times, like calling the Goths as Skythai...

Like you mentioned the Mazsakatae must've been overran by eastern nomads, although they likely partly were assimilated by the Alantae and also might've be part of the communities that formed Kangju (Kangha)...

Also don't know if we want to mention this, but the "eating of the dead" could be similar to Dakhma or Sky-burials...
I remember a russian book on this, which thought that it could explain missing muscles from some of the buried people in the Altai. Maybe a custom emerged through contacts with neighbouring polities, whereby eating (although Herodotos also speaks of cattle being cooked and generally of the dead as being sacrified) or more likely exposing certain parts of the dead will allow their qualities to be distributed and strengthen the tribe, its territories and their animals...

Still @tobymoby great work all-round :)

Originally Posted by Chap

Here it is.
I'm not a historian or a writer, so i would appreciate it if you could edit this if anything does not feel right.
I had trouble finding specific tribes of Saurashtra and I have separated the Sudarshana Lake description so you may choose to add it as a unique building/wonder just like the Sabean dam.
Saurashtra Provence Description V.1.doc


If you want another format instead of .Doc just ask

This is my interpretation of the periplus voyage near Saurashtra 50AD.


and an update on the provice description map its all happening in the east.

I appreciate all the work you put into this, as I am sure all members of EBII do too. However, I must ask:

"In 185BC the Bactrian leader Euthydemus ordered the invasion of India. General Apollodotus conquered as far as Ujjain while Menander reached Patalipatura. When Bactria was usurped by Eucratides, the generals took the chance to declare independence. Apollodotus died and Menander assumed control of Ujjain. In 148BC his son Soter I inherited the kingdom and Saurashtra was governed by his satrap Apollodtus II."

Where did you get this? As far as I know none of this goes far beyond fantasy. The only element of certainty is that the people mentioned did exist.
Furthermore, it needs to be noted that Periplus is not a person. There are a few more details that in my opinion need to be ironed out, but that should be left to the EBII editors.

Let me repeat that my comments do not mean I do not appreciate and value the work you put into compiling the text. I was glad both to read it and to see that the effort for EBII completion goes on.

Don't worry i know large chunks of this text might be twisted because I just summarize all the information i can find and i don't know how make sure its true. I generally try and find historians that have already studied primary sources.


I found a book published in 1952 "Ancient history of Saurashtra by Dr Krishnakumari J Virji". The introduction chapter talks about early Saurashtra and the main text is about the Maitrakas of Valabhi.

http://asi.nic.in/asi_books/3227.pdf
page 5 - hellenic conquests

what do you think is the book incorrect?

It could be rewritten better but i made an extra short version of the events because i wanted the focus to remain in Saurashtra.

Thanks Chap. I'm going to go through the Saurashtra description, but it might take me a while. The above book sounds interesting. There have been several texts suggesting a hellenic presence in Saurashtra. For instance, the local Mauryan governor, Tushashpa, may have a Iranian name, but he is given the title Yavanarajya, litteraly "King of the Greeks", so it has been suggested that he may actually have been of hellenic, or at least mixed, ancestry. Saurashtra was also part of the Saka kingdoms of the western Kshatrapas, and there may have been some hellenic influence carried over into the region at that Point too. I'm unsure if Demetrios or Menandros actually conquered Saurashtra, but given that Menandros supposedly even reached Pataliputra with his armies, it does not sound improbable.

I haven't begun working that much on Sindh yet, apart from some notes, so if you really want to work on that, you may, but if you can, it would be great if you could help out with Kangju province. Of course, the most glaring hole is Libya and the Numidian provinces, so anything you could do there would also be of great help! Especialy since we actually have no one covering that area at the moment.

Originally Posted by Arjos

Just a little note: Maz-saka-ta, is far more likely to mean "Man-Deer-plural", from a contracted PIE *mon-g for "The Men-deer" or possibly "The descendants of the deer"...
I personally find it valid, cosidering that ungulates in the steppe were solar symbols and it might even speak for shamanic beliefs...

The great saka etymology doesn't really hold up (besides that it comes from medieval "made-up" etymologies), because even if comparing Iranian "massa", it yields Massa-ka-ta, which is "Great-adjective of quality-plural", something like "The Greatly ones" or "The Great-like ones"...

While about Marcellinvs remark, considering that burials in the area from the last centuries BCE increasigly are lined with round or rectangular gound-level chambers built of raw brick, like those of the lower Syr Darya/Yakhsha Arta River since the 4th century BCE, and they also show the positioning of the dead like contemporary Sauromatian burials in South of the Urala Mountains, I'd link it with the advent of Alantae in the region (the Shiji comes to mind, stating that the Yantsai (later Alanliao) lived 800 li from Kangju, exactly where this province is), who replaced the former circular-plan mausoleums with cruciform interior holding multiple burials...
I think that Marcellinvs was keeping literary topoi alive, since the Alantae now lived there, they must've been the Mazsakatae of olden times, like calling the Goths as Skythai...

Like you mentioned the Mazsakatae must've been overran by eastern nomads, although they likely partly were assimilated by the Alantae and also might've be part of the communities that formed Kangju (Kangha)...

Also don't know if we want to mention this, but the "eating of the dead" could be similar to Dakhma or Sky-burials...
I remember a russian book on this, which thought that it could explain missing muscles from some of the buried people in the Altai. Maybe a custom emerged through contacts with neighbouring polities, whereby eating (although Herodotos also speaks of cattle being cooked and generally of the dead as being sacrified) or more likely exposing certain parts of the dead will allow their qualities to be distributed and strengthen the tribe, its territories and their animals...

Still @tobymoby great work all-round :)

Thanks! The etymology is interesting, I took it from the EB1 page on the Saka. If it is "Deer-Men" why are there no mentions of that in Hdt or Strabo? Surely there would be some reverence for deers if the tribe was named in that way?

Dear, Mithridates VI Eupator

I read that Yavana in Persia meant Greek but in India was interchangeable for a Hellenic or Iranian person (basically like 'westerner', the people west of the Hindu Kush) and that Tushashpa sounded Iranian so that's what i went with. About half of the books say he is either Hellenic or Iranian, so ill leave it up to you.

Originally Posted by tobymoby

Thanks! The etymology is interesting, I took it from the EB1 page on the Saka. If it is "Deer-Men" why are there no mentions of that in Hdt or Strabo? Surely there would be some reverence for deers if the tribe was named in that way?

I don't think either Persian or Hellenic writers were aware of what Saka meant (honestly it is still debated :P)...
It is even possible that this ethnonym took form in the Bronze Age, and it crystallised so that people identified themselves as Saka, without much explaining...
Also except for campaign reports, no foreigner ever met, lived among those tribes in Central Asia and wrote about it until Ssu-ma Chien, even him having a mindset towards future campaigning recording accurate distances and how many people could fight...

The connection I can give you is deer stones in the general area, deer as a solar symbol and their sun-worship, other tribes in the vicinity with similar ethonyms (Thyssagetai possibly Tur-saka-tae "swift/strong-Saka" and Apasiacae maybe "water-Saka", this last one also being from another dialect as it does not show the plural with -t-) and Uralic creation myths with a cosmic deer giving birth to the first man...

Originally Posted by Chap

Don't worry i know large chunks of this text might be twisted because I just summarize all the information i can find and i don't know how make sure its true. I generally try and find historians that have already studied primary sources.
I found a book published in 1952 "Ancient history of Saurashtra by Dr Krishnakumari J Virji". The introduction chapter talks about early Saurashtra and the main text is about the Maitrakas of Valabhi.
http://asi.nic.in/asi_books/3227.pdf
page 5 - hellenic conquests
what do you think is the book incorrect?
It could be rewritten better but i made an extra short version of the events because i wanted the focus to remain in Saurashtra.

Yes the book is incorrect. It uses a story-line written a long time ago which was based on virtually nothing. The funny part is that the people who wrote the fairy tale were heralded as towering figures of Bactrian history in their time.
We know these kings existed and we know some of them at some point conquered parts of modern day Pakistan and India. We don't know who was a general and later a king and so on. You can search the forum for Bactria and Bactrian Kings to get more info on what we know and what we don't as well as what's been written on the subject, be that fact or fairy tale.

Bottom line is we only have a significant amount of coins some of which are truly spectacular and very few textual sources. Bactrian history can be outlined as a line of kings with occasional confirmation on what they did here and there. But that's if you choose the older method of history that follows powerful individuals' personal actions assuming that in their time they defined events and trends. An other method for writing history focuses on impersonal forces in place at the time and tries to shape an idea of events that transpired based on that. In this case we are less fortunate still.

Bactria and the Indo-Greek kingdoms are fascinating in my opinion and I've tried to locate and read as much material as possible. I was shocked at the lack of what we now may call scientific approach to history. The fairy tale was (and in many cases still is) believed to be true because noone called "BS" early on.
I had hoped that Indian sources might have held some clearer insight, but it seems they do not.

p.s. I recently bought Keay's book on India. I hope it doesn't follow the same narrative when it comes that place and that point in time.

Thanks for clearing that up, i thought it was strange that all that information could be obtained from coins.

Keay's book is vague about the Bactrians in India because as you said it is only based on coins (Chapter 6, An Age of Paradox). So i tried to search else where for more concrete information. It means that paragraph will have to be rewritten, probably they never even entered Saurashtra.

The paragraphs about the saka ksatraps are from that old book too so they may be wrong as well. I'll see if i can find a more current book about them.

Originally Posted by Chap

Thanks for clearing that up, i thought it was strange that all that information could be obtained from coins.

Keay's book is vague about the Bactrians in India because as you said it is only based on coins (Chapter 6, An Age of Paradox). So i tried to search else where for more concrete information. It means that paragraph will have to be rewritten, probably they never even entered Saurashtra.

The paragraphs about the saka ksatraps are from that old book too so they may be wrong as well. I'll see if i can find a more current book about them.

I wish you the best of luck. I'd love to read something I do not know about in your rewritten version. And thanx for going through the trouble for us readers.

Hey @Arjos, I modified the Dahyu Mazasaka description to account of the proper linguistic reconstruction as well their relationship with the Alani. What do you think? My understanding of the Yuezhi invasion is really shaky. Thanks so much!

Dating the Yuezhi (Ta-kara/Tau-kara) in the 1st-2nd century CE is very late, they in fact moved into Sogdiana and Baktria some time after 133-2 BCE, when the Wusun (Asheinae) expelled them from the Ili Valley...

Their actions possibly coincided, or allowed, with the Alantae defeating the Mazsakatae in the lower Syr Darya (Yakhsha Arta) [change in burials there], as Ssu-ma Chien says that they were independent and dwelled in that area too...

However by 80 BCE the Yuezhi (Ta-kara/Tau-kara), who started to call themselves Kushine (its meaning being the same as Arshi, luminous, bright, white. A religious colour for purity and also the name of the leading tribe of the Ta-kara), had taken over all of Baktria and now extended their influence over Kangju (Kangha), which recognised their suzerainty...
It would seem that the people of Kangha were remnants of the former confederations and possibly those Mazsakatae, who were not assimilated by the Alantae, lived there. Becoming "vassals", at the same time they nominally recognised the Hsiung-nu (Dzonyu) as overlords, allowed them to turn the tide against the Alantae, who in the early 1st century CE had become a dependency of Kangha...

This would not last long, because the Hsiung-nu (Dzonyu) had already been split into two polities and the northern one increasingly moved into Central Asia, unable to act as hegemon like before, it became another force of instability...
Something definitely tied to the expansion and large scale raids launched by the Alantae in Media, Parthia and the Pontic region...

Hey,

Can I just confirm that the front page of this thread is up to date? If so, I'd be happy to do the grammar check for a few provinces. The ones I was looking at were

"122. Mesopotamia: waiting grammatical check. Here
123. Babylonia: waiting grammatical check. Here"

However, the links in the front page are not working for me, something to do with forum permissions and such. Any idea as to what is going on?

Originally Posted by The Gypsy

However, the links in the front page are not working for me, something to do with forum permissions and such. Any idea as to what is going on?

That post was pasted from the EB team's internal fora, so the links are locked, but I can confirm that the grammatical check is still needed. You could use directly the .txt file from /mods/EBII/data/text/export_buildings.txt if you want :)

Mesopotamia Edits

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

<h>Overview</h><p>Anyone entering the lands of Mesopotamia, be it south from Babylonia, east from Persia or west from Syria or north from Armenia is unable to escape from the sight of the great Tigris River. From its springs in the mountains to the great delta in the lands of Mesene, the river lazily finds its way across the desert, creating a land of great bounty in what would otherwise be a hostile environment. From the highlands of the Zagros to the waterways between the meandering streams of the Tigris and Euphrates, this is the cradle of the Akkadian, Sumerian and Babylonian civilisations and the birthplace of history.</p><h>Geography</h> <p>Mesopotamia is situated between the Zagros Mountains to the north and the Euphrates River to the south. To the west it is bordered by the province of Assyrie, where the flat Mesopotamian plateau is gradually replaced by rocky highlands. The Zagros mountain range seperates Mesopotamia from the Persian heartland to the east. This mighty range, penetrable only at one or two locations, stretches from the very fringes of the Parsa all the way to Armenia. While its peaks are not as high as those of the Hindu Kush or the Carpathians, they are of no small size either; the Zard Kuh has an elevation of 4,548 meters, closely followed by Mount Dena with an elevation of 4,359 meters.</p><p>The soil of Mesopotamia is one of the richest of the known world, at least as bountiful as that of the Egyptian Nile. Herodotos notes that no other country produces as much grain in one year as Mesopotamia and it remains one of the most important sources of revenue. Other than grain, the date palm has proved to be another great source of income. It was cultivated from the earliest of times and that cultivation has not ceased until this day. Other important agricultural products are the fig, the olive and the vine.</p><p>The most dominant feature in Mesopotamia is the Tigris River, which is in sight almost regardless of ones position in the province. In March the river begins to rise, reaching its greatest height in April, at which point it rapidly declines, leaving behind a very fertile land fit for any kind of agricultural exploitation, before returning to its natural borders in June. Further to the south, where the Tigris and Euphrates both gain volume and speed and nearly collide, a great marshland is created. To this day, it is inhabited by the descendants of the ancient Sumerians, who have retained the customs and culture of their forefathers.</p><h>History</h><p>The history of Mesopotamia is one of the richest and most turbulent of our age. It was first settled by the ancient Sumerians many years ago when they revolutionized they’re way of living by domesticating local crops. Due to rapid urbanisation, many independent city states formed on the banks of the Tigris and Euphrates. Finally, these city states formed minor independent kingdoms such as Uruk, Kish and Lagash. After several dynastic periods in which certain cities ruled supreme before power was usurped by yet another city, the Sumerians were united under a single ruler, Sargon of Akkad who formed the Akkadian Empire (circa. 2200 BCE). The Akkadian Empire reached from Elymais to the borders of Armenia and all the way west to the Mediterranean Sea. However, less than two hundred years later, the Akkadian Empire collapsed. However, it was a sign of things to come.</p><p>A few centuries after the collapse of the Akkadian Empire, Hammurabi, King of Babylon, conquered large swathes of land in Mesopotamia (circa. 1800 BCE). The Babylonian conquest of Mesopotamia was a double-edged sword; on the one hand, the old Assyrian city-states of Assur, Nuzi, Sippar and Esnunna declined in political importance due to the Babylonian centralist administration. On the other hand, because of the political stability that Babylonian rule brought, the fertile soil of Mesopotamia was able to be fully exploited. This prosperity would last for a long time, as even under Persian rule, it was noted that the Babylonian satrapy was the most prosperous and yielded the most tax income.</p><p>The Hittite Empire was the next power to dominate Mesopotamia after the collapse of the short-lived Babylonian Empire. They arrived from Asia Minor and dominated the region until around 1100 BCE, before splintering into multiple city-states during the Bronze Dark Age. Shortly after this period came to an end in 900 BCE, the Neo-Assyrian Empire began to gain power. Located in the Mesopotamian heartland, the Assyrians were one of the oldest city-states of the region. They rose to power and swiftly took control of Mesopotamia and Babylonia. During the reign of Shalmaneser III, the Assyrians repeatedly defeated Babylonian, Syrian and Caucasian foes. Once again, Assyrian armies marched towards Lake Van. Syria and Phoenicia were added to the Neo-Assyrian Empire, while Judea was subjugated by King Tiglath-Pileser. After his death, the Israelites rebelled against Shalmaneser V, who died during the siege of Samaria. Power came into the hands of his brother Sargon II, who destroyed the Israelite kingdom and deported many Jews to Babylonia. It was during the rule of Sargon's great-grandson, Ashurbanipal, that Egypt was conquered. After his death, however, the Assyrian Empire underwent rapid disintegration (circa. 620 BCE), after which the Neo-Babylonian Empire shortly ruled Syria, Assyria and Mesopotamia, and even though Mesopotamia would once again thrive under Babylonian rule, the end of the Neo-Assyrian Empire meant the end of Mesopotamian independence.<p/><p>As the Persians took control of the old Median Empire and conquered Babylon shortly afterwards Mesopotamia would gain a position as one of the most important provinces in the empire. Despite several attempted rebellions, it would remain firmly under Persian control up until the conquest of Alexandros. After Alexandros' death, Seleukos was awarded the satrapy of Babylonia and gained control of Mesopotamia. However, he had to flee his satrapy after Antigonos I Monophtalmos gained too much power. The other Diadochoi combined forces and were able to defeat Antigonos, allowing Seleukos to regain his lost provinces.</p><h>Strategy</h><p>Any ruler in possession of Mesopotamia should try to exploit its wealth as soon as possible. The Mesopotamian soil is very fertile and a desirable location for both crops and people. The province remains vulnerable to assault from the Zagros Mountains to north, but if neighbouring Babylon remains under your control, securing those mountains should be a priority. With Babylonia and the Zagros Mountains pacified, the only viable threat comes from Susiana and Charax Spasinou, and great care should be taken in the protection of those southern borders.</p>

Babylonia Edits

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<h>Overview</h><p>Babylonia is an ancient land. Warring chieftains and tribes, great kings and emperors have left their mark on the land of the Euphrates. From the Sumerians and the Akkadians to the Persians and the Macedonians, it is a contested land of great wealth and power.</p> <h>Geography</h><p>The land of Babylonia is characterised by its farmlands that follow the lazily flowing Euphrates all the way to the border with Charax Spasinou. Babylonia is also widely known for its mild climate; while summer temperatures can reach incredible heights, frequent winds from the Zagros Mountains come blowing over the flood plains, bringing much-needed coolness to an otherwise hot and arid land. The winters are exceptionally mild, with no snows ever reaching the plains or cities of Babylonia, although hail storms can occasionally wreak havoc upon the crops.</p><p>Babylonia is bordered to the north by Mesopotamia, with which it shares many of its characteristics. To the south-east, where the Tigris and Euphrates converge, it is bordered by Charax Spasinou, while the north-western border is shared with the province of Assyria. To the south-west, however, any notion of a border becomes irrelevant; the wide and harsh Arabian Desert stretches nearly infinitely on towards the horizon, and is trod by no-one, save the hardy Bedouin. \n\nBabylonia is famed for its fertile ground; several writers have noted the abundance of wheat, barley, millet and lentils. As for fruits, the date-palm is widely cultivated, as well as the olive, which is found in abundance further upstream, near the border with Assyria. The rivers and fresh-water lakes offer fish in great abundance; especially the barbel and carp.</p><h>History</h><p>The first Babylonian Empire was formed around 1750 BCE by Hammurabi the Great. His empire was short-lived, lasting only until his death after nearly 40 years of rule. However, his famous Code of Hammurabi represents the first law code in existence, holding the immortal phrase, “An eye for an eye…” Babylon was a subject kingdom for more than a thousand years before regaining independence under the Chaldeans, who ruled for a short time as the Neo-Babylonian Empire (600 BCE-540BCE). The overlords they overthrew were the Assyrian Empire, neighbours and rivals from Mesopotamia. </p><p>The man who rose to power after the disintegration of the Assyrian Empire was Nabopolassar, who reigned only for a short while before he was succeeded by one of the greatest kings in the history of any civilisation, Nebuchadnezzar. Under the rule of the Nebuchadnezzar, the Babylonian Empire regained its political power, and the rule of the Babylonians stretched from Syria all the way across the Fertile Crescent to the delta of the Tigris and Euphrates.</p><p>Nebuchadnezzar was also responsible for two of the greatest monuments to exist in our day; the Ishtar Gate and the fabled Hanging Gardens. While some scholars have contested whether or not the Gardens existed at all, it cannot be denied that under Nebuchadnezzar’s rule, Babylon thrived, both economically and politically. The Hanging Gardens may have been confused with those in Assyrian capital of Nineveh, an explanation that seems ever more likely since no evidence of its existence have been found in Babylon.</p><p>Nebuchadnezzar was succeeded by King Neriglissar, who reigned for no more than two years before his demise, after which his son, Laborosoarchod, or Labossoracus to the Greek writers, came to the throne. However, he was only a young boy, and was unable to wield sufficient political power to effectively rule the Babylonian state. Before long, a group of conspirators had him tortured to death, after which the throne passed to Nabannidochus, a relatively incompetent man.</p><p>At this time, Kurush, more commonly known as Cyrus the Great, founder of the Persian Empire, had laid waste to the kingdom of Croesus and turned towards Babylon. In a great pitched battle, Cyrus utterly defeated Nabannidochus, who fled to the city of Borsippa, and with great cunning, the Persians are able to take control of Babylon, after prompt analysis of the rise and fall of the river's tides. In this way, the Persians were able to conquer Babylon without spilling a single drop of blood.</p><p>Under Persian rule, Babylonia once again thrived. The Persian King Darayavaush took up residence in Nebuchadnezzar's palace before he built his own in the western part of the city. The satrapy of Babylonia was held in great esteem and being granted governorship over the Babylonians was a great honour for any satrap. The importance of Babylonia was further stressed by the enormous amount of tribute it paid: an annual thousand talents of silver, more than any other satrapy in the Empire.</p><p>Under King Khsayarsha (Xerxes) Babylonia revolted, killing the Persian satrap and the leader of the revolt, Belshimanni, proclaimed himself King of Babylon. Khsayarsha's brother quickly stifled the revolt and retook Babylon, tearing down its famed fortifications and melting down the eighteen-foot statue of Bel Marduk. The destruction of Babylon's defences and the sacrilege of its holy places marked the waning of Babylon's political importance.</p><p>When the Macedonian King Alexandros defeated Darayavaush III at Gaugamela, the Persian King fled, surrendering his claim to the Persian Empire, and when Alexandros descended on Babylon, the priests and officials opened the gates of the city to him. Alexandros commanded the temples to be rebuilt, including that of Bel Marduk, which had laid in ruin since its destruction by Khsayarsha. The Persian satrap that had surrendered the city was promptly returned to his position. Military control remained firmly in hand of the Macedonians, however.</p><p>Alexandros died in Babylon, leaving no heir. Several of his commanders styled themselves his successors, the Diadochoi, and they convened in Babylon. Perdikkas would remain regent in Babylon, while the others would all get a share of the lands conquered. He was assassinated scarcely a year later, with control of Babylonia passing into the hands of his general, Seleukos. After an extensive civil war in Greece, Antigonos "The One-Eyed" was the uncontested ruler of the Anatolian and Syrian part of the Empire. Four of Alexandros' generals, including Seleukos conspired against Antigonos, who was utterly crushed and subsequently killed at the battle of Ipsos.</p><p>With the death of Antigonos, Babylonia remained firmly in the hands of Seleukos.</p><h>Strategy</h><p>Babylonia is inhabited by a great many people. Alexandros left a sizeable Macedonian military contingent within the city of Babylon after his conquest, while the city also supports one of the highest concentrations of Jews outside of Jerusalem. Furthermore, it is frequently visited by Arab traders and is inhabited by native Chaldeans, Assyrians and Persians.</p>

I found the UNESCO documents of central Asia which is very helpful for discovering the whole story. If the team still needs Kangju i have done a brief chronology in the history section, but i wonder if it is correct.

Here is a rough copy of the province description.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Kangha

Kangju/ K'ang chii/ Kangui/ K'ang chu

---------Traveler's Log----------


----------Geography----------

oasis

steppe

Syr Darya - kanga river - Jaxartes

tributaries

Tein shen mountains

Pines

Kara tau range

----------The People, Society and Government----------

Iranian speaking

Sedentary and nomadic societies - Nomadic leadership

--------
Yuyeni (Yuni) - tashkent - bityan - chach - Stone city - capitol

oasis town

Late Burgulyuk period - 600bc -500bc

Kaunchin culture 400bc- 900ad
--------

kangju coins 2nd-3rd century AD

Winged camels are sign of kingship in Khwarezm and Kangju

Kultobe - script fragments

----------History----------


~1500BC - nomadic tribes arrive in the area, with horses and chariots. Bronze age centers are abandoned and new ones are founded. Settlements and nomads interchange technologies, bronze working, horses and chariots. indo-iranians (Androvono karasuk)

800-600BC Iron working establishes the vision of nomads as we know today of weapon, horse, saddle, 'scythian animal art style' cultural continuation from bulgaria to mongonlia. (Uyuk pyzerk)


Kangha - avesta?

Turan afrasaib?


593BC Cyrus invades. Syr Darya - frontier of the achmeniead empire against the northern sakas. fortresses established along the river.

329BC Alexander invades. No mention of kangju, may be part of massagetae(Tribes beyond the jaxartes, Spitamenes allies). chorasmia and macedonia(alexander) vs (spitamenes)sogdia and massagetae.



162BC Nomadic migrations begin with the bitter defeat of the yuechih by the Hsungnu. They begin political influence of central asian tribes, extracting tribute. The Kangju emerge sometime during this chaotic period, and assume control of independant Sogdia, Samarkand and Bukhara.

In 138 BC, the Han Emperor Wu sent an embassy headed by Zhang Qian to Central Asia to form an alliance against the Hsungnu. The 100 man delegation is captured by the Hsungnu and Zhang Qian is held captive.

132BC The Wusun, take revenge on the yuechih for past grevences and attack them at lake isuk-kul, with Hsungnu permission or alliance. Wusun take isuk-kul for themselves forcing the yuechih to move south.

131BC yuechih arrive in kangju controlled sogdia, either peacfully or forcefully.



130-125BC After 10 years of captivity Zhang Qian escapes, instead of going home he continues his diplomatic mission. During his stay in sogdia he takes note of the surrounding tribes including Kangju.
He notes that they are subservient/tributary to the Hsungnu and yuechih both. As the yuechih are now gaining control of sogdia and northern bactria. Kangju sends a prince as a royal diplomatic envoy to the Han court. They have a powerful army and control 5 kings/tribes

1??BC Kangju expands west past the Aral sea, reaching the southern urals. They subjugate the arosi tribe, force the alans west and have contact with the Sarmatians.



101bc kangju protects dayuan independence against Han through alliance.

60BC kangju leader invites chichi, leader of northern hsungnu into kangju to form an alliance, by exchanging daughters for marriage. they plan to attack Han ally Wusun.

42BC chichi and kangju leader reach the wusun capitol at issuk-kul, chichi starts demanding tribute from dayuan and other kingdoms.

36BC During a quarrel with his allies, Chichi confronts the Han army at talas. the same area of the abbasid vs tang battle. Chichi is killed in battle and the whole campaign falls apart. Han protects wusun and forces submission of kangju by demanding the kings son as a hostage



~0BCAD Northern hsungnu migrate north of kangju to the surrounding lake Bulkhash steppe. Kangju is increasingly trapped between the kushan/yuechih empire to the south and the rising Yue-pan/hsungnu kingdom into north.

83AD Kushans ally and intermarry with Kangju dynasty.

123-135AD prince Hu-yen of the Yue-pan creates a powerful kingdom.

~300AD Kangju remains independant untill absorbed into hephthalites.


Kara Kanga turks?

----------Strategy----------



----------source----------

History of Civilizations of Central Asia: The dawn of civilization earliest times to 700BC - UNESCO
http://unesdoc.unesco.org/images/000...44/094466e.pdf

History of Civilizations of Central Asia: The Development of Sedentary and nomadic civilizations 700BC to 250AD - UNESCO
http://unesdoc.unesco.org/images/001...7/105703eo.pdf

History of Civilizations of Central Asia: 250-750AD
http://unesdoc.unesco.org/images/001...46/104612e.pdf

The Yuezhi Migration and Sogdia - Dr. Craig Benjamin
http://www.transoxiana.org/Eran/Articles/benjamin.html

So if you still need it i can continue investigating and turn it into a proper description. Also, I can look into the Indo-saka and indo-greeks these documents have good information but i don't know if i can trust them.


This is how i view the tribes:

Scythian = European word for the steppe nomads
Saka = Iranian word for the steppe nomads

Sai = EB's Saka Rauka

Yuechih, Tocharians are the royal tribe > Kushans

Wusun

Kangju

Dayuan = Fergana

Hsungnu > Northern Hsungnu > Yue pan > Hephthalites/White huns
Hsungnu > Northern Hsungnu > westward huns? > Attila's Huns


Province Map

Just for clarity regarding the Yuezhi: They were most likely Tocharians who were ousted from the Tarim and later the Issyk river basin by the Xiongnu and Wusun. They established 5 kingdoms in Sogdia. It is the most plausible theory that the Kushans were the rulers of one of these kingdoms, who later established hegemony over the other four and then expanded to become the Kushan Empire.

I have the UNESCO volume, it is generally good, but now it is getting a bit dated. Like Kangju going all the way to the Aral is just made up, there's no source for it. What the Han Shou says is that at one point Kangju held nominal suzerainty over the Alantae...
As for the Aorsi, that is nonsense, archaeology shows nothing of the sort and the Romani were even allying themselves with the Aursatae, recognising them as a major power in the region at that time...

Originally Posted by Chap

This is how i view the tribes:

Scythian = European word for the steppe nomads
Saka = Iranian word for the steppe nomads

Sai = EB's Saka Rauka

Yuechih, Tocharians are the royal tribe > Kushans

Wusun

Kangju

Dayuan = Fergana

Hsungnu > Northern Hsungnu > Yue pan > Hephthalites/White huns
Hsungnu > Northern Hsungnu > westward huns? > Attila's Huns

If you are interested in these etymologies:

Skythai is a Hellenic transcription of Skuda "archers"...
Saka was an endonym, meaning "deer", but was reinterpreted by Persian speakers as "those who roam", this folk etymology being extended to all nomads...
Sai is just a Han Chinese transcription of Saka, which in the Han period was pronounced Saek...
Yuezhi a Han transcription for Arshi, its pronounciation was Ruzhi, which appears in Tocharian texts to denote their own language (in the tongue of Arshi). It meant White/Luminous...
Tocharoi was a Hellenic transcription for Ta-kara, kara appears on Kushan coins, it's a tocharian noun meaning "group of people". It appears even in Khotan Saka, whereby texts speak of the "neighbouring Gara people", reinterpreted in Khotanese to mean mountaneers, due to Iranian gar (that is mountain). While Ta, or Tau, is again a tocharian noun which means large/many. This particular word had a much linguistic success, it is thought that even Mongol Tumen is a borrowing of it. Anyway Ta-kara, meant something like "the large group of people", perhaps "confederacy", hence it was an inclusive collective, making it harder to determine ethnicities, because whomever followed the royal tribe of the Arshi, was by definition a member of their large Kara...
Wusun is another Han transcription, it sounded something like Aswen, it reflects Asana (Hellenic Asioi, Asianoi) meaning "noble, worthy" in Khotan-Saka...
Kangju yet more Han transcripting, pronounced Kangka, ultimately reflects the North Iranian Kant or Kand meaning "city/building" and an adjective suffix -ka, something meaning "those of the city". If you are familiar with Kangju's history, it centered around urban Chach and was inhabited by various peoples...
Dayuan is just Han Chinese for "The Great Yuan", this last name being a transcription of Yauna, the Iranian name for Ionian/Greek...
Hsiung-nu is a Han transcription, which went through subsequent folk etymologies, its contemporary pronounciation was something like dzunha, reflecting an Altaic noun meaning "population, people, country, community". Cognates are Mongolian dzon, Buryat zon,Yakutsk djon, Tuva, Shors, Sagay čon, Altaic Turks jon, Evenki ngōnmin and Chuvash şыn...

Widura/Silengolandam Edits

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Introduction\n\nDescending from an Alpine pass the weary traveller is invited to lie amidst the calm of a holy grove and attend more than the song of birds. This scared shrine is centred atop a broad hill that overlooks the upper basin of the Widur (Oder) River. In fact, this region is called Widura (Silengolandam), meaning the "middle place”; taking a name from this waterway. This land of mountains, hilly forests, and open plains is home to the Didunes, who dwell in small scattered settlements that lack defences. As colonial descendants this tribe speaks the language, follows custom, and practice the art and industry of the eastern Celts. However, they are wed to the people of Luguwa and to great extent share the latter's economy, government, and laws. Collectively, they devote themselves to their cattle and spend little time on farming; leaving that to those indentured. As with the other tribes of greater Germania, the Didunes are exceedingly addicted to both the conduct and income of trade and war. \n\nGeography\n\nThe province of Widura is centred on much of the upper and middle Oder River basin and includes much of the historic extent of Silesia and western Poland; as well as the portions of Saxony and Brandenburg that border the middle Oder River. This region can best be characterized as relatively flat lowlands that form the middle and upper basin of the Oder river system. This area is bounded on the northeast by modest uplands and on the south by a western extension of the Carpathian Mountains. The regional vegetation is directly related to geomorphology setting. For example, the hilly plains of the lowlands are dominated by grassland and scattered groves of deciduous trees. In contrast, highland areas below the timber line feature large and diverse deciduous and coniferous forests. The climate of Widura is temperate with precipitation primarily concentrated in the rugged highlands. Spring and fall are somewhat short, the summers typically range from moderate to warm, while the winters are cold to very cold, depending on altitude.\n\nSocial and Political Organization\n\nThe social and political organization of Widura can best be characterized as a system of tribal based chiefdoms that represent relatively egalitarian collectives that displayed little evidence of stratification. As a multi-layered ethnicity these communities seem to have shared a somewhat common set of legal, religious, and militaristic customs. Overall, these tribes were informally administered by an ill-defined religious caste and ruled by dominant clan affiliations and an assembly of the general citizenry, which formed the overwhelming bulk of the populous.\n\nProto-History\n\nThe culture or proto-history of this area, is relatively well understood; however present day political issues often cloud normative assessments of the Widura region. Putting aside recent projections of nationalism on the past, the Widura region can be confidently included within the southern periphery of the Lusatian Culture. Based on agriculture, the Lusatian Culture was characterized by large fortified settlements and extensive cremation cemeteries. About this same time Celtic elements associated with the late Hallstatt Culture appear to have crossed over the Moravian Gate into Silesia and southern Poland brining advanced iron working technologies. However, in the 6th century BC this region was also repeatedly attacked by Scythian nomads who seem to have specifically targeted the large Lusatian settlements. In fact evidence of widespread destruction throughout southern Poland and Silesia and the burial of a wealthy Scythian war lord at Witaszkowo, indicates they gained temporary control of several local districts. Nonetheless, around 500 BC the Lusatian Culture collapsed, the large fortified settlements were abandoned, and attacks by eastern nomads seem to have stopped. \n\nLarge areas of Silesia appear to have been effectively abandoned until the beginning of the 4th century when Celtic elements associated with the La Tené Culture were established in Upper Silesia. These are referred to as the Głubczyce, Ślęża, and Wrocław archaeological groups which were associated with the Púchov Culture. They were characterized by the distinctive La Tené weapons and metallurgical technology; as well as wheel-made ceramics and Celtic subsistence patterns. However, their settlements were small undefended farmsteads, while fortified villages and oppidum were entirely absent. Although apparently established in the period of the Lusatian and Hallstatt cultures, during this later period the cultic site found atop Mount Ślęża seems to have gained a certain degree of prominence. Additionally, as this region sat astride one of the main avenues of amber exchange, coins minted by Boii chieftains to the southwest and those produced by Greek city-states are often found at settlements occupied during this period.\n\nMany of the Celtic settlements in Lower Silesia were abandoned soon after 120 BC. This seems to roughly correspond to part of the 100 mile wide Vacare Agros mentioned in Book 4 of Caesar's Gallic War. On the other hand with the steady political decline of the east Celts, and retraction of the La Tené Culture, Upper Silesia was increasingly pulled into the sphere of the Przeworsk Culture. This archaeological construct may be characterized as pastorally based tribal society, without an established capital, that was based on small scattered unfortified farmsteads and hamlets. Although written in the early 2nd century AD, form Ptolemy's Geographia we learn that Upper Silesia was occupied by the Omanoi and Didunoi tribes, who were associated with the Lugii confederation and Lugidunum, apparently an important settlement. The Didunoi or Diduni tribal name may represent Greek and Latin forms of the Celtic Dī dunos; meaning "those of" or "from the uplands." In contrast the tribal name Omanoi or Omani may be similar to the Gaulish "komantos" and mean "those who are equals." \n\nStrategy

Kottinon Edits

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Introduction\n\nFollowing a narrow trail over a high mountain pass, the rugged traveller enters the realm of the Oesioi and Kottinoi. A precipitous land of high peaks, deep valleys, forests, lakes, and streams takes the name, Kottinon, after the latter tribe of eastern Celts. Throughout, these hardy peoples reside in scattered farmsteads and villages, yet the nobles abide within hill-top forts, while their kings erect vast citadels of stone and timber. Here they build their mansions and gather around them the finest warriors, merchants, and craftsmen. To some extent they are also renowned for their iron mines, from which the ore removed fashions weapons; always in great demand throughout Barbarorum. By all accounts this promotes the ruler's authority and power to exact all manner of art, industry, and foreign enterprise, which in turn secures great fame and fortune, both near and far. Unlike the other nations of greater Germania, these eastern Celts prefer the plow as much as pastoral pursuits and gain equally from trade or war.\n\nGeography\n\nThe province of Kottinon is centred on much of the area covered by the modern nation of Slovakia and south central Poland. This region consists of two geomorphologic zones; the first of which is the central uplands dominated by the western extension of the Carpathian Mountains, with Kriváň the highest peak at 2,495 m (8,186 ft). The second physiographic zone is lowlands of the upper Hungarian Plain and the Pannonian Basin, which is bounded on the south by the Danube River. The regional vegetation is directly related to these geomorphology settings. For example, the undulating plains of the lowlands are dominated by grassland and scattered groves of deciduous trees. In contrast, below the timber line large and diverse deciduous and coniferous forests exist throughout the highland zone. The climate of Kottinon is temperate with precipitation primarily concentrated in the rugged highlands. Spring and fall are somewhat short, the summers typically range from moderate to warm, while the winters are cold to very cold, depending on altitude.\n\nSocial and Political Organization\n\nThe social and political organization of Kottinon can be described as a group of agriculturally based tribal communities organized as feudalistic societies that shared a common language and set of deeply rooted oral, artistic, legal, spiritual, and militaristic traditions. These tribes were ruled by a warrior-elite, who fostered the activities of artisans, merchants and craftsmen and gained their support as a result. In turn these classes were maintained by a vast system of indenture and other forms of servitude, which were informally administered by a discrete body of religious and secular magistrates. This system was anchored by a network of large fortified towns, called oppida which acted to serve as tribal capitals, provide requisite logistics for the aristocracy and symbolise the extent and authority of the politic.\n\nProto-History\n\nDue to extensive archaeological survey and excavation the culture or proto-history of the Kottinon region is relatively well understood. Our overview begins in the 7th century BC with the Lusatian Culture. Well entrenched throughout the Upper Vistula basin this archaeological construct was based on agriculture and was characterized by large fortified settlements and extensive cremation cemeteries. In contrast, the south-western uplands were dominated by settlements associated with the periphery of the Calenderberg Group. Later expressions of this culture are associated with the late Hallstatt Culture. In the 6th century BC this region was also repeatedly attacked by Scythian nomads operating from bases in the western Ukraine, which seem to have specifically targeted the large Lusatian settlements. Evidence of widespread destruction throughout southern Poland, eastern Slovakia, and Silesia indicates they enjoyed temporary success. Nonetheless, around 500 BC the Calenderberg Group and Lusatian Culture collapsed, the large fortified settlements were abandoned, and attacks by eastern nomads seem to have eased.\n\nMuch of this region was effectively abandoned for at least 50 to 75 years when a few small scattered settlements associated with the La Tené Culture were established. Around the end of the 4th century BC this manifestation had developed into a local mix of La Tené and latent Illyrian, called the Púchov Culture. They seem to have established an oppidum at Havránok, which possibly represents Ptolemy's Asanca. By 270 BC population levels had recovered sufficiently that related communities known as the San and Tyniec archaeological groups were founded in the upper Vistula basin. Here, coins were minted at a smaller oppidum called Karrodunum that was established near Krakow, Poland. Based on statements made by Tacitus this area seems to have been an important iron mining district. Shortly after the Cimbric migration in 120 BC, the oppidum at Havránok was vastly expanded and its defences improved. However, between 60 and 40 BC this and several surrounding regions became embroiled in a war that resulted in Dacia assuming a dominant role in the lower Danube basin. Dacia's success may have been due in part to Caesar's Gallo-Roman war which shattered Celtic military authority throughout continental Europe.\n\nThe closing decades of the 1st millennium BC witnessed the neighbouring Boii abandoning much of their territory north of the Danube and the steady encroachment of Swabian tribes in the northwest and incessant raids by eastern nomads. From Tacitus' Germania we learn that this region was occupied by the Cotini. The Cotini were affiliated with several other tribes including the Buri and Osi, possibly in the upper Vistula basin; and the Anarti found in eastern Slovakia. While there is consensus that the Cotini and Anarti can be directly linked to the Púchov Culture, the relationship of the tribal Buri and Osi to the Tyniec and San archaeological groups is far less certain. However the association of the Buri and Osi with the Lugii confederation may offer some support to this theory. Nonetheless, during the timeframe of Europa Barbarorum II, in terms of settlement plan, burials, ceramics, weapons, and other elements of material culture; this province was integrated into the La Tené regional system as peripheral expression.\n\nStrategy

Both of these descriptions lack a strategy section, not sure if my version of EB is behind the curve (2.01 I think) or if it was saved for later. Once again I have rewritten a few sentences to improve clarity.

Ok thanks guys for clearing that up.

Yeuchih = Arshi, White/Luminous
Wusun = Aswen, asana, noble/worthy
Tochari = Ta-kara, large-group of people/confederation
Kangju = Kangka, city-people. centered around chach
Hsungnu = Dzunha, people, community

Just for clarity regarding the Yuezhi: They were most likely Tocharians who were ousted from the Tarim and later the Issyk river basin by the Xiongnu and Wusun. They established 5 kingdoms in Sogdia. It is the most plausible theory that the Kushans were the rulers of one of these kingdoms, who later established hegemony over the other four and then expanded to become the Kushan Empire.

The Ta-kara headed by the Arshi tribe where attacked in Issyk-kul by the Aswen tribe with the help of the Dzunha. They where forced out as the Aswen settled in Issyk-kul. The Ta-Kara migrated into Sogdia where they established 5 kingdoms. The kushans emerged as the hegemon and started their rise to empire.

It sounds like the Ta-kara disintegrated when they reached sogdia and the Arshi no longer held authority in the group. Then the Kushans emerged as the new authority or royal tribe. I have not read too much on the kushans yet i guess they would have some history with Kangka in AD

Did the Saka Khotanese and Tocharians use the Kharoshti script?