Primary vs. secondary weapons and other noob questions

[somedude]

I downloaded this game from Steam and after getting a little bit of experience from getting a poor start as France in Vanilla (and I also played Shogun and M1 a long time ago), I'm starting an M2TW Crusades campaign with the Byzantine Empire. I have been reading totalwar.honga.net, FAUST, and this forum so I this time I can actually know what's going on. I had a few questions:

1. What is the significance of the primary or secondary weapons? If one is missile and one is melee this makes some sense in that one is used at range and the other in direct combat. Some mounted of mounted units have both the primary or secondary as melee and this a bit confusing. It seems like it would always whichever one is higher. If there both the primary and secondary attacks are melee, what determines when one gets used and at not the other (or both)?

2. Can a cavalry missile unit be ordered to melee attack? (Likely related to question #1)

3. What are the different levels of armor upgrade for a unit? Just to take one example, if you look at Trebizond Archers at honga.net it shows an armor upgrade as a leather tanner. Do Trebizond Archers benefit from any other upgrades further down the armor tech tree or is the tanner the only one? Likewise, Byzantine Cavalry is showing upgrades at both Blacksmith and Armorer, so does this then mean that any armor building more advanced than an armorer doesn't offer any benefit to Byzantine Cavalry?

4. Are the economic traits of your faction leader empire wide or only applicable to province to that he is stationed in?

5. Are the economic benefits of governors only in effect if there are in the town or castle?

6. How are retraining costs calculated? Does retraining only upgrade equipment (and possibly experience) or can it also replenish a unit's numbers back to full strength? It seems this is something I should know already, but in game I've seen retraining not put it back in full strength yet at the same time I thought I remember reading somewhere that this was how it was supposed to work.

[Darth Feather]

I downloaded this game from Steam and after getting a little bit of experience from getting a poor start as France in Vanilla (and I also played Shogun and M1 a long time ago), I'm starting an M2TW Crusades campaign with the Byzantine Empire. I have been reading totalwar.honga.net, FAUST, and this forum so I this time I can actually know what's going on. I had a few questions:

1. What is the significance of the primary or secondary weapons? If one is missile and one is melee this makes some sense in that one is used at range and the other in direct combat. Some mounted of mounted units have both the primary or secondary as melee and this a bit confusing. It seems like it would always whichever one is higher. If there both the primary and secondary attacks are melee, what determines when one gets used and at not the other (or both)?

2. Can a cavalry missile unit be ordered to melee attack? (Likely related to question #1)

3. What are the different levels of armor upgrade for a unit? Just to take one example, if you look at Trebizond Archers at honga.net it shows an armor upgrade as a leather tanner. Do Trebizond Archers benefit from any other upgrades further down the armor tech tree or is the tanner the only one? Likewise, Byzantine Cavalry is showing upgrades at both Blacksmith and Armorer, so does this then mean that any armor building more advanced than an armorer doesn't offer any benefit to Byzantine Cavalry?

4. Are the economic traits of your faction leader empire wide or only applicable to province to that he is stationed in?

5. Are the economic benefits of governors only in effect if there are in the town or castle?

6. How are retraining costs calculated? Does retraining only upgrade equipment (and possibly experience) or can it also replenish a unit's numbers back to full strength? It seems this is something I should know already, but in game I've seen retraining not put it back in full strength yet at the same time I thought I remember reading somewhere that this was how it was supposed to work.

1. Sometimes, one of their weapons is like Armor piercing, or cavalry who have a charge bonus when they use their lances. (hope I didn't misinterpret your question)

2. Yes, by holding alt and then attacking

3. That's it, you have a maximum armor on all of the units. When you right-click the unit card, you can see the next armor upgrade under the stats.

4. I am not certain, but there are certainly mods which make it that way.

5. Fairly certain they have to be stationed

6. yes it replenishes the numbers. If you don't have the appropriate barracks though, you can't replenish your numbers. For example, you can't make militia in castles. If they have for example a leather tanner in the castle you took with militia, you can upgrade the armor, but not retrain them (hope this makes sense)

Are your questions answered or am I completely wrong?

Welcome to the .org By the way.

[somedude]

Welcome to the .org By the way.

Thanks. I have to say I'm impressed by how much depth there is in this game and at the same time annoyed by much reading I have to do. Total War? More like Total Read amirite?

I had a few more questions (an understatement):

1. The single most important question is did the current gold version of the game get enough of the bugs (no benefit for guild Journeyman trait, etc) or do I need to go for mod to get this? If a mod is more or less required for the game to work as advertised, which one should I go with, I have seen both Vanilla mod and Land to Conquer Gold mentioned. (the link to Vanilla on the downloads page is broken by the way)? I'm looking for more or less baseline Kingdoms gameplay with bug fixes.

2. How do you estimate distances in the game? Distances of 40, 60, etc seem to operate as triggers with regard to agent traits. 40 what? How do I know when I get there?

3. What is your preferred pre-gunpowder strategy for artillery in field battles? The trebuchet looks good on paper with its long range (285) but a lot of the posters don't seem to think much of trebuchets, citing their accuracy, and their useful limited to assaulting cities or defending cities from assault. The thing with accuracy is if you're targeting a large-ish army even you don't hit your target you're likely to hit something and therefore kill the other guys soldiers (which is the whole point right?). Surprisingly, a lot of people spoke highly of ballistae, which I'm sure must be great but a range (180) only slighter better than higher end archers. Mangonels (only available in Kingdoms) also seem pretty good (range 250, damage 65), they don't require a siege works, and their only apparent downside in that carry less ammo (10) they're harmless against walls.

4. Spy and assassin visibility, how does it happen: How are these units spotted and who is best at spotting? Are spies better at spotting spies/assassins than armies/settlements? Are assassins as good at spotting as spies/assassins or do spies have an edge here? Are watchtowers more likely to spot spies/assasins than armies/settlements?

5. Effects of spy/assassin visibility: Does spy/assassin visibility have have any effects besides just that the other faction knows that its there (and can be targeted)? Does it reduce the unit's chances of success for its own missions?

6. What is best way to thwart spying and assassination attempts? Does stacking a friendly spy with a army or settlement reduce the chance of success of a hostile spying and assassination attempts against that army/settlement?

7. What are the benefits of forts over just having an army in the field? Both block paths and both can be circumvented with sufficient time, so what is the difference? I suppose an army if confronted can only fight or slip away where as a fort has the additional option of digging in for a siege and without the economic penalties that come with one of your settlements being under siege? Is this all their is to forts? Do forts offer any free support to militia type units?

8. Does the Swordsmith's guild give a bonus to all non-mounted melee units or only sword units built in the settlement (not referring here to the factionwide bonus to cavalry for HQ)?

9. What is the significance to fighting at night? A night fighter will get a modest command bonus in a night battle, but what other effects are there as a result of a night battle?

[Darth Feather]

Thanks. I have to say I'm impressed by how much depth there is in this game and at the same time annoyed by much reading I have to do. Total War? More like Total Read amirite?

I had a few more questions (an understatement):

1. The single most important question is did the current gold version of the game get enough of the bugs (no benefit for guild Journeyman trait, etc) or do I need to go for mod to get this? If a mod is more or less required for the game to work as advertised, which one should I go with, I have seen both Vanilla mod and Land to Conquer Gold mentioned. (the link to Vanilla on the downloads page is broken by the way)? I'm looking for more or less baseline Kingdoms gameplay with bug fixes.

2. How do you estimate distances in the game? Distances of 40, 60, etc seem to operate as triggers with regard to agent traits. 40 what? How do I know when I get there?

3. What is your preferred pre-gunpowder strategy for artillery in field battles? The trebuchet looks good on paper with its long range (285) but a lot of the posters don't seem to think much of trebuchets, citing their accuracy, and their useful limited to assaulting cities or defending cities from assault. The thing with accuracy is if you're targeting a large-ish army even you don't hit your target you're likely to hit something and therefore kill the other guys soldiers (which is the whole point right?). Surprisingly, a lot of people spoke highly of ballistae, which I'm sure must be great but a range (180) only slighter better than higher end archers. Mangonels (only available in Kingdoms) also seem pretty good (range 250, damage 65), they don't require a siege works, and their only apparent downside in that carry less ammo (10) they're harmless against walls.

4. Spy and assassin visibility, how does it happen: How are these units spotted and who is best at spotting? Are spies better at spotting spies/assassins than armies/settlements? Are assassins as good at spotting as spies/assassins or do spies have an edge here? Are watchtowers more likely to spot spies/assasins than armies/settlements?

5. Effects of spy/assassin visibility: Does spy/assassin visibility have have any effects besides just that the other faction knows that its there (and can be targeted)? Does it reduce the unit's chances of success for its own missions?

6. What is best way to thwart spying and assassination attempts? Does stacking a friendly spy with a army or settlement reduce the chance of success of a hostile spying and assassination attempts against that army/settlement?

7. What are the benefits of forts over just having an army in the field? Both block paths and both can be circumvented with sufficient time, so what is the difference? I suppose an army if confronted can only fight or slip away where as a fort has the additional option of digging in for a siege and without the economic penalties that come with one of your settlements being under siege? Is this all their is to forts? Do forts offer any free support to militia type units?

8. Does the Swordsmith's guild give a bonus to all non-mounted melee units or only sword units built in the settlement (not referring here to the factionwide bonus to cavalry for HQ)?

9. What is the significance to fighting at night? A night fighter will get a modest command bonus in a night battle, but what other effects are there as a result of a night battle?

1. I actually never played those mods you stated. There is indeed some stuff to which doesn't work as it should, but I personally don't think it is such a problem. I barely use spies to open or spy inside settlements of the opponent, so I don't use the Journyman-trait (I also refuse Thieve guilds all the time, merchant and theologians guilds are way better IMO). The most stupid problem with kingdoms (1.4) is that all Faction heirs in the americas have zero loyalty. So make sure you are patched up to version 1.5. I did hear though that Vanillamod is very good.

2. IIRC it had something to do with squares. But I am not really a modder so I am not the best person to answer this.

3. I don't really use trebs. It takes ages before you get the correct siege factory and their accuract is bad. The only slightly usefull mode of trebuchets is the cow carcess (sp?). Catapults are great though. The ballista is good if you attack units. Its accuracy is quite good and it only takes a large town to build them. The reason why I don't use it is because they tend to hit the units in front of them, while catapults kill from behind your units. But the greatest for field battles are Magonels. I hate it if my opponent has it, but I love to use them myself. So IMO catapults and magonels are the way to go. But for assulting cities it is another case.

4. Spies can spot spies and assassins. the other units usually don't. I think spies have the edge over spotting other spies. I don't know wether watchtowers see them. I only deploy watchtowers at bridges or mountain passes.

5. I don't thinks so. The succes/faillure should still be the same.

6. Yes it greatly helps. If your spy is somewhat trained, he has like 75 percent -100 percent chance to infiltrate the enemy settlement. If the enemy has a spy (level 1) and you are spying with a spy level 10, your cahnces are not likely to raise above 50 percent, and are usually a lot lower.

7. That's all there is for the forts in Medieval. In kingdoms, you have the expensive 2500 florins forts. They give free upkeep to your three most expensive units and have stone walls and great towers.

8. I think it counts for all non-mounted melee units (I seem to remember I had once norse axemen with the sword upgrade)

9. The night attack denies the enemy their reinforcements if they don't have the night fighter ability. Suppose you are attacking a city of the enemy, and right behind the city are reinforcements with a general without the night fighter ability. If you attack the settlement at night, the enemy reinforcements can't come to help.

Hope this answers yout questions.

[Myth]

Hi and welcome! Glad to see fresh blood around here. When you get the hang of M2TW, come over to the Throne Room right here on the .org and try a hotseat game with other humans!

I downloaded this game from Steam and after getting a little bit of experience from getting a poor start as France in Vanilla (and I also played Shogun and M1 a long time ago), I'm starting an M2TW Crusades campaign with the Byzantine Empire. I have been reading totalwar.honga.net, FAUST, and this forum so I this time I can actually know what's going on. I had a few questions:

1. What is the significance of the primary or secondary weapons? If one is missile and one is melee this makes some sense in that one is used at range and the other in direct combat. Some mounted of mounted units have both the primary or secondary as melee and this a bit confusing. It seems like it would always whichever one is higher. If there both the primary and secondary attacks are melee, what determines when one gets used and at not the other (or both)?

For ranged units or those with ranged capabilities (javelin throwing skirmishers), they use their ranged attack when not engaged in melee, and their secondary melee attack when they are. The difference between the attacks is that ranged attacks ignore part of the defensive bonus of the enemy. Certain missiles have the armour piercing capability which further reduces the impact of enemy defense. Usually ranged units have a melee attack that has a very low kill chance and a poor animation. Mostly.

For melee units, usually cavalry have a secondary weapon. They use their lance or spear to charge and obtain that great charge bonus to attack, then if you do not pull them out to regroup and mount a second charge, they pull out their secondary weapon and slug it out in melee. Secondary attacks with the armour piercing capability (Maces for example) are great in a melee fight and shred even heavy infantry in a fight.

A notable bad example of a secondary attack are pike units like Royal Pikemen for example. They really like to pull out their weak shortswords when they please. Mods like Stainless Steel remedy that, amongst a multitude of things. Do try it out.

2. Can a cavalry missile unit be ordered to melee attack? (Likely related to question #1)

Most certainly. As Darth said, just hold Alt and right click. Make sure you are charging into the rear of an otherwise occupied force, or if you must charge frontally - do so after weakening them with arrows.

3. What are the different levels of armor upgrade for a unit? Just to take one example, if you look at Trebizond Archers at honga.net it shows an armor upgrade as a leather tanner. Do Trebizond Archers benefit from any other upgrades further down the armor tech tree or is the tanner the only one? Likewise, Byzantine Cavalry is showing upgrades at both Blacksmith and Armorer, so does this then mean that any armor building more advanced than an armorer doesn't offer any benefit to Byzantine Cavalry?

Yes. Some units get only leather, which you get from the lowest level of the smith. Others benefit from leather and then chain or half plate. Yet others start with great armour and only benefit from plate which you get last. You will see which upgrade is next on the unit card. Armour is awesome in M2TW, especially if you use autoresolve a lot.

4. Are the economic traits of your faction leader empire wide or only applicable to province to that he is stationed in?

No, he is just another general in that regard.

5. Are the economic benefits of governors only in effect if there are in the town or castle?

Yes

6. How are retraining costs calculated? Does retraining only upgrade equipment (and possibly experience) or can it also replenish a unit's numbers back to full strength? It seems this is something I should know already, but in game I've seen retraining not put it back in full strength yet at the same time I thought I remember reading somewhere that this was how it was supposed to work.

Retraining does all the things. If a unit is damaged, it attempts to replenish it and upgrade it. If it's full health, it will add weapon and/or armour upgrades. The costs for replenishing are what you would pay for the unit minus the remaining men in the unit being retrained. Armour and weapons have a fixed cost per unit IIRC.

[somedude]

Hi and welcome! Glad to see fresh blood around here. When you get the hang of M2TW, come over to the Throne Room right here on the .org and try a hotseat game with other humans!

Thank you and I will!

Mods like Stainless Steel remedy that, amongst a multitude of things. Do try it out.

That is something I was wondering about. I didn't know to what extent the game had been patched or if I should get a mod and if so which one.

1. So would you say that stainless steal is the best?

2. Does it update the scenarios or just the big European campaign (by scenarios I mean 4 campaigns that came with kingdoms: Crusades, Teutonic, etc)?

3. Are you using steam and if so did you need to do anything to resolve any conflicts between the mod and steam?

Also, a few more non-mod related questions:

4. I noticed that if an army of raiders (or bandits, I forgot the actual term) is on your territory and they are not wiped out within a turn or two, the land where it stands appears burnt. Even after the raiders are wiped out, the burn mark remains. Is this strictly appearance or does this represent a permanent reduction in the economic productivity of the province?

5. I wanted to sort out an economic policy more intelligent than More People + More Economic Buildings = Good, which is a true statement but isn't specific enough to prioritize anything. Taxes, mining, and farming revenue seem fairly straightforward (or maybe they're not and there is some horrible iceberg underneath). Trade is a bit mysterious though. Presumably, your investment dollar will go farther in provinces that have more valuable trade goods, but again this really doesn't get to the point of how trade revenue works. Although all the trade boosting buildings will generate revenue, any given building may be a good investment in one province and a poor investment in another. Roads, ports, wharfs, markets, all boost trade revenue but are they only raw multipliers or but do they may do they act in different ways in different contexts (setting aside the military usefulness of roads, strictly looking at money)?

6. Do each of these trade building types interact with each other? (for example, do roads and ports increase the effectiveness of markets but not visa versa)

7. Does population size impact trade (not tax revenue)? Lets say that you have 2 identical provinces with the exact same natural resources and infrastructure and the only difference is that one has a higher population (set aside any benefit from its position relative to other provinces if one exists). Would adding a market to the larger population province have a bigger impact or would it be the same impact for both provinces?

[Myth]

1. So would you say that stainless steal is the best?
- Yes, one of the best. Also try Third Age Total War if you're a Lord of the Rings fan.

2. Does it update the scenarios or just the big European campaign (by scenarios I mean 4 campaigns that came with kingdoms: Crusades, Teutonic, etc)?
- It's an independent (mod foldered) modification that vastly improves the big European scenario. It does not disallow you to also play regular Medieval 2 or the Kingdoms campaigns.

3. Are you using steam and if so did you need to do anything to resolve any conflicts betwe
en the mod and steam?
- I myself am not using steam for M2TW in particular. However, there are some things that you need to take into consideration when installing for the steam version. Here is a list of great mods for M2TW with Kingdoms installed. Here is the SS thread for downloading it. Here is the FAQ, steam installation included.

Also, a few more non-mod related questions:

4. I noticed that if an army of raiders (or bandits, I forgot the actual term) is on your territory and they are not wiped out within a turn or two, the land where it stands appears burnt. Even after the raiders are wiped out, the burn mark remains. Is this strictly appearance or does this represent a permanent reduction in the economic productivity of the province?
- It's called devastation. Usually it will go away, but there is an annoying bug in M2TW that makes it permanent. Sadly the only way to avoid it is to curbstomp them asap. Also, they're called rebels (legacy of Rome Total War)

5. I wanted to sort out an economic policy more intelligent than More People + More Economic Buildings = Good, which is a true statement but isn't specific enough to prioritize anything. Taxes, mining, and farming revenue seem fairly straightforward (or maybe they're not and there is some horrible iceberg underneath). Trade is a bit mysterious though. Presumably, your investment dollar will go farther in provinces that have more valuable trade goods, but again this really doesn't get to the point of how trade revenue works. Although all the trade boosting buildings will generate revenue, any given building may be a good investment in one province and a poor investment in another. Roads, ports, wharfs, markets, all boost trade revenue but are they only raw multipliers or but do they may do they act in different ways in different contexts (setting aside the military usefulness of roads, strictly looking at money)?
- Trade is different from Merchant Income. For now remember this rule of thumb: sea trade (ports), connected with paved roads and large mines give the most income. If you have a cluster of rich port cities, move your capital there to negate corruption. For more indepth strategies, check out my guide on playing hotseats (but also on playing M2TW in general)

6. Do each of these trade building types interact with each other? (for example, do roads and ports increase the effectiveness of markets but not visa versa)
- All of them increase the export of the city in question. This has a double effect, because that export then becomes the import in another city. The building bonuses stack, you can see their effects in the city details as you add a building, it will show half-transparent carts which when you mouse over, will show the income value added to that settlement by the upgrade.

7. Does population size impact trade (not tax revenue)? Lets say that you have 2 identical provinces with the exact same natural resources and infrastructure and the only difference is that one has a higher population (set aside any benefit from its position relative to other provinces if one exists). Would adding a market to the larger population province have a bigger impact or would it be the same impact for both provinces?
- Population does not directly influence trade to my knowledge. Adding a market will give you an increase in tradeable goods, which is good.