Turkish Spring ?

[Fragony]

That's cute, total freak Erdogan promises a million counter-protesters can be rallied. This is getting really interesting. LEN & Mouz stay in your appartment or I am going to call your moms and tell her you are idiots.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Uhm, I'm not too sure that would be a good idea. We're talking principles from an era in which a totalitarian (at least nominally) secular centre - right regime was considered a civilised and perfectly kosher approach to government.

That aside, the issue is deeper: as far as I am aware the Erdogan admin still has a significant support among Turkey simply for being the guys who made "religion" in politics more accepted and mainstream. So they can still count on a significant share of the conservative vote. That is not because Erdogan is necessarily a proper humble and honest Allah-fearing, law-abiding, 5-times-a-day worshiper of the faith; it is because religion has been repressed for years.

Turkey needs to find a more grown up way of dealing with the Turks that happen to hold different view points.

This seems to me to be the nub of it.

Ataturk essentially enforced secularism upon the collapsing Turkish Empire. He did it in a way that worked, and which has made Turkey into a functioning democracy with a thriving economy.

HOWEVER, Ataturk's reforms were never a long-term alternative to an Islamic State and until very recently no thought was given to disseminating the Elite's secular principles down to the general populace. So, in the end, you have the same problem as Iran had in the 1970's. Secularism has been enforced, and embraced by the middle class, but the working class and the rural poor are not really very secular.

The difference with Turkey is that, hopefully, the rural poor and working class recognise that the secular constitution is better than enforcement of Sharia.

I hear Erdogan has started restricting the sale of alcohol during the day - here's hoping that doesn't sit well with the majority brand of Turkish Islam.

[ICantSpellDawg]

I know that the protests are widespread now, but there have already been apologies and a recognition that the violence of the police needs to be investigated. More devolution of zoning authority would probably be a good solution. Calls for government abdication are absurd at this point.

Injuries over mass mobilization are unacceptable and the police need to be held accountable. Also, media ties with government need to be broken. Let's see if any changes can be made here.

[Empire*Of*Media]

I'd like the Islamist be gone in Turkey, but in Turkey there Is Muslims Party and Kamalists Party, means both of them are dictators. The Islamist does need much tell.
but the oppositions are the Ataturkists (kamalists),that its not fully opposite though, and have 60% of the government. and Ataturkists are secular, but are in fully hatred and extremely Racist, as they made great crimes against Kurds, Armenians, Assyrians. specially about Kurds that they even did not let Kurds speak with their ancient own language! or even Dress Kurdish!! (i dont say about jailing & Torturing and Killing Kurdish Civilians, because it will full the thread).

so i dont have too much hope of this revolt, its very limited, and they just want to put the Racists FULLY in the Government again, that is horribly Dangerous for the Kurds & Peace in the Turkey. (as The AKP is too, but a very bit better than kamalists!)

[Hax]

So, in the end, you have the same problem as Iran had in the 1970's. Secularism has been enforced, and embraced by the middle class, but the working class and the rural poor are not really very secular.

You can't really compare the two. The position of the clergy in Iran was (and is) completely​ different.

[HopAlongBunny]

But it does set the conditions for religion as a useful political lever.

I have no idea how it works in Turkey, but if you have a seat distribution that favors/panders to the rural religious base, policy outcomes will reflect that influence.
Does policy reflect the outcomes of a systemic bias, or is it indeed the "will of the majority" ?

[Beskar]

Seems to be working now.

[Fragony]

All fine here but my connection hardly works posting here right now. I would check for Ddoss attacks

[HoreTore]

I hear Erdogan has started restricting the sale of alcohol during the day - here's hoping that doesn't sit well with the majority brand of Turkish Islam.

I'd say that's a pretty good proposal, actually.

[Pannonian]

I'd say that's a pretty good proposal, actually.

You're only saying that because you're a religious fundie.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

You can't really compare the two. The position of the clergy in Iran was (and is) completely​ different.

Yes, but a lot else is the same - the core point remains - we may like secularism as a way of life but when its enforced it makes the religious fundamentalists the voice of Liberty.

I'd say that's a pretty good proposal, actually.

Between 6am and 10pm?

As in, most of the day?

In Turkey?

That's a political statement, that is.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Yes, but a lot else is the same - the core point remains - we may like secularism as a way of life but when its enforced it makes the religious fundamentalists the voice of Liberty.

Idk why, but this made me rethink some things.

[Hax]

Fifty shades of Islamism. AKP =/= Khomeini =/= Muslim Brotherhood

But wait, there's more: the influence of secular and socialist movements during the Iranian Revolution of 1979 has very often been downplayed or forgotten, the former mostly by representatives of the current regime, the second mostly by people everywhere from about 1982 onwards.

The way you constructed your post is also rather misleading, as it gives the idea that the transition from the Osman state to the Turkish republic was a sudden shift from a so-called "Islamic" state to a secular republic, while in fact, the Caliphate had been experimenting with secularist concepts from the early 19th century onwards (cf. Tanzimat, Young Ottomans, etc.).

Additionally, strong economic growth in Turkey didn't really kick off until well after the 1980's.

I'm very much opposed to the AKP and Erdogan and his lackeys for many different reasons, but in you post there are a lot of things that are either wilfully ignored or just overlooked, which leads to a very flawed analysis of the recent history of Turkey, and as such to something of a misleading argument.

[Sir Moody]

Yes, but a lot else is the same - the core point remains - we may like secularism as a way of life but when its enforced it makes the religious fundamentalists the voice of Liberty.

that depends very much on how it is enforced and how far you take the definition of secularism - there are 3 "models" which have been used at one point or another - the US model which was unenforced and has ended up in name only, the French model which is enforced by law to a point and the model Turkey used which was uncompromising and enforced by the Military - I think we can all agree the happy medium is somewhere between the US and French

It also depends on what the "religious fundamentalists" are asking for - to be heard and have their opinions considered, then yes, to have only their opinions considered, then no.

Between 6am and 10pm?

As in, most of the day?

In Turkey?

That's a political statement, that is.

yes that is a blatant pro Islamist move...

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Fifty shades of Islamism. AKP =/= Khomeini =/= Muslim Brotherhood

But wait, there's more: the influence of secular and socialist movements during the Iranian Revolution of 1979 has very often been downplayed or forgotten, the former mostly by representatives of the current regime, the second mostly by people everywhere from about 1982 onwards.

The way you constructed your post is also rather misleading, as it gives the idea that the transition from the Osman state to the Turkish republic was a sudden shift from a so-called "Islamic" state to a secular republic, while in fact, the Caliphate had been experimenting with secularist concepts from the early 19th century onwards (cf. Tanzimat, Young Ottomans, etc.).

Additionally, strong economic growth in Turkey didn't really kick off until well after the 1980's.

I'm very much opposed to the AKP and Erdogan and his lackeys for many different reasons, but in you post there are a lot of things that are either wilfully ignored or just overlooked, which leads to a very flawed analysis of the recent history of Turkey, and as such to something of a misleading argument.

I'm deliberately simplifying, Hax, because I'm a student of religious oppression and I'm looking at the opposing forces at play rather than the specific players.

Until recently headscarves were banned in public buildings in Turkey - a Kamalist statement that Turkey is not as Islamic (read: Arab) country. Given that most Western men find Islamic headcovering at best mildly offensive this was applauded and the reversal of the ban was met with some disquiet.

Here's the point: When wearing a headscarf becomes a political statement against the authoritarians you are failing to secularise the country.

This is what the AKP capitalised on - the same as the Mullahs in Iran.

[Hax]

I believe I can largely follow what you're getting at.

However, I still find the comparison between the AKP and the Iranian Shi'ite clergy rather troublesome: apart from the points mentioned above, it portrays the Shi'ite clergy as a more-or-less homogeneous group of conservatives, which isn't really true (compare Ahmadinejad from 8 years ago with someone as Ali Shariati or (more recently) Mehdi Karroubi). There is an interesting letter that I will try to localise (there is an English translation) between two Iranian clerics talking about the social contract.

[Strike For The South]

I believe I can largely follow what you're getting at.

However, I still find the comparison between the AKP and the Iranian Shi'ite clergy rather troublesome: apart from the points mentioned above, it portrays the Shi'ite clergy as a more-or-less homogeneous group of conservatives, which isn't really true (compare Ahmadinejad from 8 years ago with someone as Ali Shariati or (more recently) Mehdi Karroubi). There is an interesting letter that I will try to localise (there is an English translation) between two Iranian clerics talking about the social contract.

Damn your nuance.

[Brenus]

“the influence of secular and socialist movements during the Iranian Revolution of 1979 has very often been downplayed or forgotten” They were deliberately left to die. At theses times, the fear was not Religious Extremism (as most of the Westerners thought it was just the equivalence of Conservatives) but the Lefties. In Iran, Khomeini was seen as the rampart against a possible Mossedegh. Remember that Oliver North (so Reagan’s administration) had no problem is selling weapons to Iran to arm the Contras in Nicaragua.

[HoreTore]

Between 6am and 10pm?

As in, most of the day?

In Turkey?

That's a political statement, that is.

Of course it's a political statement, how can a proposal for a new law be anything else...?

Alcohol restrictions are good in my book.

[Fisherking]

Of course it's a political statement, how can a proposal for a new law be anything else...?

Alcohol restrictions are good in my book.

So, you have no problem dictating how others should live their lives?

Thanks for sharing that.

[HoreTore]

So, you have no problem dictating how others should live their lives?

Thanks for sharing that.

Yeah, exactly.

:rollseyes:

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Of course it's a political statement, how can a proposal for a new law be anything else...?

Alcohol restrictions are good in my book.

Ah, so you hate Jews.

Wait - that statement is as silly as yours.

[HoreTore]

Ah, so you hate Jews.

Wait - that statement is as silly as yours.

I have no idea what you're on about, but I'm not sure I care.

Why are Alcohol restrictions good in your book? It seems like prohibition of all kinds is doomed to failure, and has side-effects ranging from an increase in organized crime to a total subversion of large parts of your government in the name of continuing prohibition. I'd like to know why you think the opposite could be true.

I'm not talking about prohibition, I'm talking about restrictions.

There's quite a number of them here coupled with hefty taxation, and apart from the occasional shopping trips to Sweden(for a buttload of other things as well though) and what our Polish carpenters bring from home, there's next to no organized smuggling in alcohol.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I have no idea what you're on about, but I'm not sure I care.

It's a pro-Islamic measure, playing to the sensitivities of Muslims against those of Christians and Jews.

Keep up.

I'm not talking about prohibition, I'm talking about restrictions.

There's quite a number of them here coupled with hefty taxation, and apart from the occasional shopping trips to Sweden(for a buttload of other things as well though) and what our Polish carpenters bring from home, there's next to no organized smuggling in alcohol.

Ahem - Norwegian Sailors.

[HoreTore]

It's a pro-Islamic measure, playing to the sensitivities of Muslims against those of Christians and Jews.

Keep up.

Do I care?

A good idea is a good idea.

If an anti-religious(make it a muslim one if you want) wanted to piss off the religious people in the country by proposing gay marriage, I would still support the measure whole-heartily even if the aim of the proposal is to raise a certain finger to a certain group in a divide and conquer-scheme.

Because it's still a damned good idea.

[Empire*Of*Media]

Erdogan is not that True Islamic that you think !!

so by all these things against your Anti ISLAMIC government, you want another Ultra-Racist criminals Kamalists be in the full of Government ?!

[HoreTore]

I guess I can get behind taxing alcohol more. Quite frankly, it needs to be treated exactly like a recreational drug and not a slightly more interesting soda pop. That would at least put people in the right frame of mind when considering what other drugs should be allowed for recreation, and also goes to show what the government can get out of a heavily taxed recreational drug (alcohol profits and the taxes from those profits are astronomical in America).

Completely outlawing something to get rid of its negative effects - prohibition - never works. Regulating it with a carrot-and-whip-scheme, on the other hand....

I don't like the idea of it being used as a means of getting tax money, however.

Erdogan is not that True Islamic that you think !!

so by all these things against your Anti ISLAMIC government, you want another Ultra-Racist criminals Kamalists be in the full of Government ?!

When you think the world can't get any weirder, just remember that you can always watch the petty feuding of the locals of some random backwater nobody cares about.

[Empire*Of*Media]

When you think the world can't get any weirder, just remember that you can always watch the petty feuding of the locals of some random backwater nobody cares about.

excuse me i didnt get that! too much hard English !

[Papewaio]

When you think the world can't get any weirder, just remember that you can always watch the petty feuding of the locals of some random backwater nobody cares about.

Considering the power scale of the late Ottoman Empire this quote could be in Mandarin in five hundred years talking about Texans...

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Do I care?

A good idea is a good idea.

If an anti-religious(make it a muslim one if you want) wanted to piss off the religious people in the country by proposing gay marriage, I would still support the measure whole-heartily even if the aim of the proposal is to raise a certain finger to a certain group in a divide and conquer-scheme.

Because it's still a damned good idea.

The Autobarns were a good idea too - as were Hitler's other industrial projects - but it was still stupid of Western Europe to support him, wasn't it.

Down with Islamists and all their Ilk, says I.