Turkish Spring ?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Oh yes, after beating their own population into submission, these democrats now try to talk the EU into submission:

http://www.naharnet.com/stories/en/8...-turkey-eu-bid



"Let us join or else..." Is that supposed to show that the allegations of human rights abuses and democratic deficits are false?

PS: Lebanese link because they are the only non-german source I found that quotes his threat.

What are they going to do?

These guys are NUTS.

[LeftEyeNine]

RTE has a certain way of diplomacy and there are younger ones around him - other than those generally elderly who play good cop/bad cop strategically from time to time - that look up to him as a role model and Egemen Bagis is one of them.

The tone is not surprising - that's what we've been hearing from AKP politicians for years now.

GDP, roads, blocks and stuff, yeah yeah, "progress". Can we move on ?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

RTE has a certain way of diplomacy and there are younger ones around him - other than those generally elderly who play good cop/bad cop strategically from time to time - that look up to him as a role model and Egemen Bagis is one of them.

The tone is not surprising - that's what we've been hearing from AKP politicians for years now.

GDP, roads, blocks and stuff, yeah yeah, "progress". Can we move on ?

Well - I think the Scales have fallen from the eyes of your European Neighbours.

You're being ruled by a man who's half a step from being a Despot, everybody sees that now.

[Fragony]

Well - I think the Scales have fallen from the eyes of your European Neighbours.

You're being ruled by a man who's half a step from being a Despot, everybody sees that now.

The EU doesn't, es muss sein, Turkey must join the international-socialism. Talks continue between Turkey and that flemmish ferret who looks like an owl who dropped from his tree, his Portugese waitor and a German booksalesman about joining the EUSSR

[Husar]

The EU doesn't, es muss sein, Turkey must join the international-socialism. Talks continue between Turkey and that flemmish ferret who looks like an owl who dropped from his tree, his Portugese waitor and a German booksalesman about joining the EUSSR

Depends.

Our current government seems to be against furthering the EU entry talks and your government voted against it as well in the last round.
Austria was also mentioned as being critical but it almost sounded like the other European nations voted yes.
Our green party leader Claudia Roth, the one who got caught up in teargas while visiting Istanbul, says we have to continue the integration process to reward the protesters and their strife for more democracy. Well, I'm not sure about that because it would still look like the AKP types got a diplomatic victory right there and make them think they're doing it right. And then it doesn't even seem certain that the protesters want Turkey to join the EU. So in her case I actually agree that she seems to have lost touch with reality.

[HopAlongBunny]

The EU seems divided on the issue. It seems support divides along lines of what is perceived as "worth" discussing.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe...546744468.html

[Fragony]

Depends.

Our current government seems to be against furthering the EU entry talks and your government voted against it as well in the last round.
Austria was also mentioned as being critical but it almost sounded like the other European nations voted yes.
Our green party leader Claudia Roth, the one who got caught up in teargas while visiting Istanbul, says we have to continue the integration process to reward the protesters and their strife for more democracy. Well, I'm not sure about that because it would still look like the AKP types got a diplomatic victory right there and make them think they're doing it right. And then it doesn't even seem certain that the protesters want Turkey to join the EU. So in her case I actually agree that she seems to have lost touch with reality.

As if it matters what our democratically elected government say, the unelected eurocrats do as the please and negotiations continue. The Netherlands is too small, and Germany will be remindeded of Europes darkest days and won't dare opposing.

[Husar]

As if it matters what our democratically elected government say, the unelected eurocrats do as the please and negotiations continue. The Netherlands is too small, and Germany will be remindeded of Europes darkest days and won't dare opposing.

Eh, no.

All member states have to agree to the ongoing process before every step. And the guys our countries sent to these votes said no, which is why Turkey is angry.

You can't just replace reality with your own made-up dystopia...

[Fragony]

Eh, no.

All member states have to agree to the ongoing process before every step.

Sorry Hussie but that's just laughable. You need more Nigel Farage explaining things to you.

[Husar]

Sorry Hussie but that's just laughable. You need more Nigel Farage explaining things to you.

So why is Turkey angry then if they can join anyway?

I don't need Farage to be able to read and listen and I don't trust him anyway.

[Beskar]

Sorry Hussie but that's just laughable. You need more Nigel Farage explaining things to you.

Nigel Farage in some aspects is correct, he knows where a lot of the weaknesses are within the EU. However, he is also part of the club which would oppose European reform due to how it would affect the balance of power, and actively voices just to leave. For the negatives of the European Union, there are quite a number of very strong positives. I believe Reform can happen within the Union to address and fix the issues, opposed to jumping ship at the merest sight of an Iceberg.

[Fragony]

Nigel Farage in some aspects is correct, he knows where a lot of the weaknesses are within the EU. However, he is also part of the club which would oppose European reform due to how it would affect the balance of power, and actively voices just to leave. For the negatives of the European Union, there are quite a number of very strong positives. I believe Reform can happen within the Union to address and fix the issues, opposed to jumping ship at the merest sight of an Iceberg.

I agree with him. I want the Netherlands to leave as well. The Netherlands doesn't need the EU for effective trading, small as we may be the EU needs us more than vica versa as we are the only ones that can provide the recources needed through our waterways to provide the German industry with. No Netherlands means no Germany. No Germany means no EU. It's about time we use what we got. We don't have to leave altogether but we can certainly stop that Flemmish ferret that looks an owl that just dropped from his tree, his Portugese waitor and a German booksalesman. Pro-EU parties are at an all time low, and we are in general really fed up with it. So are the Finnish by the way, that other AAA country, they are also beyond fed-up paying for garlic-countries they will probably blow everything up sooner.

[Sarmatian]

we are the only ones that can provide the recources needed through our waterways to provide the German industry with. No Netherlands means no Germany.

Que? Delusions of grandeur a bit?

And, Hussar is correct. No country can join EU unless every member state agree.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Nigel Farage in some aspects is correct, he knows where a lot of the weaknesses are within the EU. However, he is also part of the club which would oppose European reform due to how it would affect the balance of power, and actively voices just to leave. For the negatives of the European Union, there are quite a number of very strong positives. I believe Reform can happen within the Union to address and fix the issues, opposed to jumping ship at the merest sight of an Iceberg.

It has taken 20 years to reform the Common Fisheries policy to prevent the extinction of North Sea Cod. This is the fault of Mediterranean Countries, who are already fished out, refusing to give ground. The CAP still requires reform.

In addition to the vested interests, you have the EU technocrats who demand "Ever Deeper Union" - the Myth that the single currency is a permanent and irrevocable development is a case in point - that statement runs counter to economic sense and historical fact. The abject refusal to EVER rescind a treaty provision or disband an agency have resulted in decades of trying to paper over structural problems - instead of abolishing institutions and replacing them (as happens at a national level) the EU attempts to deal with structural problems by adding another layer of control.

Farage is fundamental correct - the EU cannot be reformed, because it refuses to be reformed.

[Montmorency]

Farage is fundamental correct - the EU cannot be reformed, because it refuses to be reformed.

The EU can not be dismantled, because it refuses to dismantle itself.

[Sarmatian]

Farage is fundamental correct - the EU cannot be reformed, because it refuses to be reformed.

This is pure bollox, but we should probably continue this line of discussion in the appropriate thread.

[Brenus]

“Farage is fundamental correct”: The man so patriotic that he opened a bank account in a Fiscal Paradise to avoid paying taxes to the Country he loves so much?
Like Le Pen in France (who opened a Swiss Bank Account few years ago), these so call patriots just love themselves and are the good faithful dog guards of the capitalist system. They come when needed and thanks to the media they rescue the Bi-party system (parties that have the same policies, just names change) that gave the crowd the illusion of choice. Because it is becoming more and more obvious, most of the voters don’t go to vote any more.
That is the opened door to more unrest, violence and confrontation when the need and voices of the population are ignored for the sake of saving the privileges of the few at the top.
It is like a C4 charge. Stable until the detonator ignites the charge. The problem is no body know what will be the spark: trees cutting like in Turkey, suicide by fire like in Tunisia, price of bus tickets like in Portugal?

[Fragony]

Que? Delusions of grandeur a bit?

Simply how it is, only Rotterdam can handle the really big ships. If we leave the EU that doesn't change.

[HopAlongBunny]

Anyone have good current information on this?
It seems to have disappeared from from the news, and I doubt it has been resolved. Eerie I call it...

[Fisherking]

Can you believe it! The politicians of Turkey are blaming the protests on Turkish Jews.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...9610L520130702

[HopAlongBunny]

Ouch!
From the "If you can't think of anything intelligent to say" school of political discourse

Hope LEN is doing well.

[HopAlongBunny]

Nothing here

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

“Farage is fundamental correct”: The man so patriotic that he opened a bank account in a Fiscal Paradise to avoid paying taxes to the Country he loves so much?
Like Le Pen in France (who opened a Swiss Bank Account few years ago), these so call patriots just love themselves and are the good faithful dog guards of the capitalist system. They come when needed and thanks to the media they rescue the Bi-party system (parties that have the same policies, just names change) that gave the crowd the illusion of choice. Because it is becoming more and more obvious, most of the voters don’t go to vote any more.
That is the opened door to more unrest, violence and confrontation when the need and voices of the population are ignored for the sake of saving the privileges of the few at the top.
It is like a C4 charge. Stable until the detonator ignites the charge. The problem is no body know what will be the spark: trees cutting like in Turkey, suicide by fire like in Tunisia, price of bus tickets like in Portugal?

I've said before that I don't think UKIP should be allowed into Office.

That doesn't make Farage's analysis of the problem wrong.

Your argument is an ad hominem, which is usually deployed when a debator cannot attack the Point and so attacks the Man.

[Brenus]

“Your argument is an ad hominem, which is usually deployed when a debator cannot attack the Point and so attacks the Man.” Oh. So when somebody says something and does something else, you consider he’s got a point. I consider that his actions talk for him, so, in this case prove him wrong. Dishonesty can’t be a legitimate basis for political point.
By the way, don’t use tactic you give the impression to denounce
Now, for the EU, Farage is wrong, so he doesn’t have a point. Like all institutions it can be change. I am part of the few countries that voted against the European Constitution and then it was imposed by my government. So, EU can change. For the worst for now, but it did change.

[HopAlongBunny]

Protest continues:

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe...756523394.html

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

“Your argument is an ad hominem, which is usually deployed when a debator cannot attack the Point and so attacks the Man.” Oh. So when somebody says something and does something else, you consider he’s got a point. I consider that his actions talk for him, so, in this case prove him wrong. Dishonesty can’t be a legitimate basis for political point.
By the way, don’t use tactic you give the impression to denounce
Now, for the EU, Farage is wrong, so he doesn’t have a point. Like all institutions it can be change. I am part of the few countries that voted against the European Constitution and then it was imposed by my government. So, EU can change. For the worst for now, but it did change.

I was talking about the structure of the EU - not domestic taxes. Ergo, Farage's tax avoidance is irrelevant and an ad hominem.

Farage has been consistently ahead of the curve in predicting the collapse of the peripheral EU economies, his sequence of events and times have been spookily accurate. Either he understands the flaws in the EU economic arrangement - or he's orchestrating the collapse.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Either he understands the flaws in the EU economic arrangement - or he's orchestrating the collapse.

He might not be personally orchestrating the collapse, but his sort of behaviour has contributed to the crisis. The Bankers of course did their bit, but in the Southern European countries, a big part of their problem has been people dodging taxes.

[gaelic cowboy]

Farage is a bit hyped though isnt he, I mean they don't a presence in parliment except in the heads of nervous Tories.

Even that byelection result lately if extrapolated nation wide probably wouldnt result in a single seat

[Fragony]

Lennie or Mouzi explain this for me please, Turkey sits proudly on the first place when it comes to patrol-prices. I don't buy it, and most certainly don't understand it. No way it can behigher than in compact countries like Norway and the Neds, who are two and tree

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

He might not be personally orchestrating the collapse, but his sort of behaviour has contributed to the crisis. The Bankers of course did their bit, but in the Southern European countries, a big part of their problem has been people dodging taxes.

From what I understand, he briefly flirted with avoidance for one tax year over a decade ago - having either realised that it was immoral or politically untenable he cancelled the arrangement.