Camillan and Polybian Armies

[ahowl11]

I have a few questions regarding the Roman military system of the Republic before the Marian reforms.

First I know the basic composition of both armies, but correct me if I am wrong.

Camillan:
Accensi
Leves
Rorarii
Hatati
Principes
Triarii
Equites

Polybian:
Funditores
Velites
Sagittarii
Hastati
Principes
Triarii
Equites

My question concerns the Allied forces and how they were configured. Did the Camillan armies basically use Samnite Hastati, Etruscan Hoplites, Campanian Cavalry, Lucanian Skirmishers etc as their allied forces?

For the Polybian Armies, did they use Socii Hastati, Socii Principes etc?

My final question is, when exactly did the Romans make the change from Camillan to Polybian armies?

Any feedback is welcome, and if you have sources please list them as I'd like to read them myself as well!

[Arjos]

Did the Camillan armies basically use Samnite Hastati, Etruscan Hoplites, Campanian Cavalry, Lucanian Skirmishers etc as their allied forces?

More or less, not solely those you mentioned but whatever members of the Latin League and later the various communities/polities allied to Roma were called to supply men...
Obviously they employed them according to their cultural experties in warfare...

For the Polybian Armies, did they use Socii Hastati, Socii Principes etc?

In Italy, yes, for the various communities were ever romanized, even though they did keep their distinctive decorations. But Polybian armies found themselves engaged far away from the Italian Peninsula and usually the allied contingents, were drawn from whatever local population they were in contact. Being them Iberians, Greeks or Numidians for example. Of course at the very beginning of the campaign, soon as the Consvl received his Provincia (in the sense of "territorial" mandate), he would depart with a moderate core of Italian troops (something like two roman legions and two from the socii) and wherever he was headed, would see him joining up either with local allies already on the field or the Consvl would gather new forces there...

My final question is, when exactly did the Romans make the change from Camillan to Polybian armies?

It is very much debated and I don't think there will ever be a clear answer. It most likely was a gradual process stretching from the wars with Keltic tribes in the Po Valley, to the Second Punic War. That generation of people fought pretty much non-stop for all their mature life. The pilum and gladius were adopted, also thanks to loot and something of a "war economy" definitely more citizens could afford more sophisticated armour, like chainmail. Consider how Polybios records about the roman eagerness to attack "barbarian" tribes, due to their jewelry and later the private contributions to the Senatvs for the war against Hannibal in Italy.
It was certainly a time in which Latin soldiers were not engaged in seasonal campaigns in the Italian Peninsula, but wintered oversea for few years and they were generally "professionalized"...
Iirc in the Macedonian Wars there still were veterans from Cannae fighting, not mentioning Africanvs' men way back from the campaign in Hispania...

In a nutshell: the more successful campaigns a citizen took part in, the more resources he acquired (both direct and indirect, new trading opportunities, new grants of land that sorta thing). While foreign arms were appreciated for their properties and studied. Manufacturers through trial and error or even foreign specialists, would copy and improve the new equipment etc...

There are some arbitrary dates like Cannae, but at least in my view it is a bit ludicrous to imagine that one day the Romani said to themselves: "You know what, these weapons are rubbish! Let's make completely new arms by tomorrow!"...

[ahowl11]

Thank you very much for the answer. I was under the impression that the Polybian reforms occurred during the First Punic War.

Your answer leads me to another question though. How exactly were the maniples equipped?

This is based off what I have read, EB, and other mods:

Camillan
Rorarii - Scutum. Did they throw javelins as well as carry spears?
Hastati - Scutum, greave, Monteforino helmet. This is where it gets tricky - some mods give them only spears, some like EB give them short swords and pilae
Principes - Scutum, greave, breastplate, Monteforino helmet. Everywhere I have read the Principes had spears

Polybian
Hastati - Same as above but do they have a breastplate now or do they have chainmail? They would obviously have pilae and a gladius
Principes - Same as above but they had chainmail as armour. They had pilae and a gladius.

If the Hastati had chainmal, wouldn't they basically look the same as the Principes? In that case instead of having Hastati and Principes, shouldn't they be combined as a Polybian Cohort of some sorts?

If you could clear this up for me it would be much appreciated!

[Maeran]

The difference between hastati and principes is one of age (and the experience it brings), and nothing else. The representation of heavier armed principes and lighter equipped hastati is something of a convention to show the variety of armour available and uses the assumption that older men have accumulated more wealth. In history, nothing would have prevented a father giving his son his chain-mail as he left for his first campaign among the hastati.

Montelfortino helmets are not the only helmets. Just a common type. This is not a standardised army we are talking here, but a citizen militia.

The rorarii are poorly understood. Our surviving written sources are all centuries later (Livy, mainly) and may be talking about more than one type of soldier. At one point they are skirmishers and at another can be confused by the enemy for triarii.

[Arjos]

Just a grammar note, the plural of pilum is pila :)

Camillan
Rorarii - Scutum. Did they throw javelins as well as carry spears?

As Maeran pointed out, we simply do not know and it's a matter of guesswork. They belonged to the poorest class and likely they performed similar tasks as the Helots did in classical Greece. That is carrying equipment, tending to the Triarius' well being etc. At some point they might've also performed as missile units of some sorts opening the battle. But this stands on early second century BCE comedies using terms like "shower before the rain"...

Hastati - Scutum, greave, Monteforino helmet. This is where it gets tricky - some mods give them only spears, some like EB give them short swords and pilae

They had just light javelins, there weren't pila at that time. Later writers metion them simply because they were using their contemporary vocabulary...
Their were shortswords, likely taken from the early La Tène Kladion, which had a blade about half that of the gladius hispaniensis...

Principes - Scutum, greave, breastplate, Monteforino helmet. Everywhere I have read the Principes had spears

Yup, thrusting spears is correct.

Polybian
Hastati - Same as above but do they have a breastplate now or do they have chainmail? They would obviously have pilae and a gladius

Whatever the citizen could afford :P
I'd say way less Loricata Hamata (if any!) than the Principes though...

If the Hastati had chainmal, wouldn't they basically look the same as the Principes? In that case instead of having Hastati and Principes, shouldn't they be combined as a Polybian Cohort of some sorts?

That is what eventually happened ^^
In the mid of the second century BCE, less and less people could afford to buy their equipment. And the well off citizens prefered getting richer and tend to their activites...
Roman generals, at that time, had to finance themselves their troops, even bribing people to enlist. The other philosophy was the Gracchian take, about redistributing the land so that poorer classes could support themselves. This would lead to the Marian reform, but for example around 122 BCE, during the war against the Allobroges and Arverni, there was hardly any difference in equipment between Hastati and Principes...

[ahowl11]

Thank you for the grammar check, I do not like messing up :)

Thank you for clarifying everything, I now have a pretty clear understanding of the Republican Armies. :)