Edward Snowden, Hero or Traitor?

[Fisherking]

What do you think?

He did not leak anything other governments didn’t already know. He only informed the public of what the US government was doing to its own citizens.

Yet politicians on both sides are calling for his head and saying that they are doing nothing wrong.

Who do you believe?

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Delusional narcissist.

[Fisherking]

Delusional narcissist.

Well, I know which newspaper you read that in.

A nice piece of media based damage control.

To me it is more the open release of the information than the individual, yet they start to work to discredit and vilify the leaker.

Was there ever a time when the people were asked, do you think this is a good idea or is it a step too far?

It s not that it has not been obvious. It has just been one of those things you know they are doing but not saying.

I am guessing most of you don’t really care that your government is becoming a surveillance state.

[rajpoot]

Calling him a traitor is hypocritical because if it's OK for the government to snoop on its citizens, it's OK for a citizen to snoop on the government.

And for the record I find such a degree of surveillance a little creepy. What perverse motives do they have that they go so far in spying on their citizens?

[Fragony]

He didn't put anyone in danger like Assange did, he just revealed something that is worth worrying about. He deserves nothing but respect

[Fisherking]

The reason that these programs are seen as legal is because there is no way to challenge them.

As the programs are secret, courts, including the Supreme Court, will not grant standing to anyone bringing suite. They can not know what is in the law because it is secret.

Just how cool is that?

[Fisherking]

While this incident points up that the call data and not the calls are being logged, don’t fool your self. Calls are being recorded.

Perhaps the only ones kept are the ones with keywords in the conversations that trigger a response but all are monitored.

The call data would allow them to link conversations to phone records to know, more or less, just who made the call.

I am sure there are worse things going on, and yes, your computer spies on you too. This is only the tip of a great iceberg.

[TinCow]

Assange is a hero. Manning is a traitor. Snowden is a whistleblower. Get it right.

I can buy that Manning is a traitor because he was a Soldier, and swore an Oath, and all that good stuff. Snowden on the other hand was a civilian working for a domestic security agency--the sort of agency that needs whistleblowers the most. I can give two s less what his motives are, whistleblowing is a good thing when you're talking about clandestine domestic security. To consider this guy a traitor we have to put the NSA on the same level as the military. We have to put his non-disclosure agreements on par with the Soldier's oath. I find that a terrifying glimpse into the psychology of the government's bureaucracy.

This is basically my view as well (minus the Assange bit). Manning also just vomited up reams of information, the vast majority of which did not show any wrongdoing by the US, and thus endangered US policy, relations, and possibly lives for no whistleblowing purposes whatsoever. Regardless of whether he exposed some wrongdoing with some of his data, releasing the rest of it was inexcusable. I will not shed a single tear if he gets life in prison.

Snowden is significantly different. He actively selected out the information that he felt was necessary to inform the public about a serious issue. He released only the information that was needed to cover that issue and held back all other information that could have endangered US interests or lives. In addition, he released that information through sources that themselves then did a second round of editing to ensure that the absolute minimum amount of information necessary was released into the public. That is someone who cares a great deal about correcting a problem while doing as little harm as possible to our nation and our people. I hope they just leave the fellow alone, he's not likely to cause any more damage in the future anyway.

[Strike For The South]

Delusional narcissist.

Ding ding.

Let me preface this buy saying, I have no delusions that the American government does shady extra legal things. It's part of the territory when you're a government, even more so when you're the superpower basically tasked with the security of your underlings. I know Germany, Canada, and the UK have expressed outrage over this and all over the internet their citizens are quick to claim that they will never do business with America again. Even though their states are perfectly happy with letting the US do their dirty work for them. If your country participated in extraordinary rendition, your country is getting information from the NSA.

I would also like to point out this data mining is really only good for large scale groups and deductive reasoning after they have caught a singular man. Lone wolves will slip though cracks (undoubtedly to the jeers of "CONSPIRACY" to you internet heroes.) while groups that were once large start getting picked off, they will splinter once they get lost among the white noise. It's good in the sense that smaller groups plan smaller attacks due to smaller amounts of resources (generally of course) it's unfortunate in the sense that we will probably have to be dealing with a lot more fertilizer bombs. Of course you get in your car everyday, so I know you're not totally risk averse.

Cyber rights are the next big civil libirties debate. I don't know why it's surprising that the government is doing this stuff. Hell twitter itself is considered public space, obviously your tweets are not the same as your emails or your phone calls. It just goes to illustrate the fact that privacy rights in these spheres are still the wild west and I think a portion of this hand wringing is going because people went crazy with the personal stuff on the cat tubes.

Now to the issue of Snowden himself. Why should I believe a low level IT GED wielding tech guy at some BFE outpost in Honolulu? This is to say nothing of his ridiculous assassination fantasies. I have a couple of power point slides and him claiming he could bug the president. Not to mention he looks like every 28 year old virgin I ever met.

Color me unimpressed with this whole thing

New York Bomb July 4
OMGITSTOATTLYLIKE1984

[HoreTore]

I will gladly share everything I learned about the comms equipment(or aything else) during my conscript year to anyone who asks.

If I ever get knowledge of any other "national security risks" I'll spill the beans in an instant.


I don't give a crap about either state secrets or national security.

[Strike For The South]

I will gladly share everything I learned about the comms equipment(or aything else) during my conscript year to anyone who asks.

If I ever get knowledge of any other "national security risks" I'll spill the beans in an instant.


I don't give a crap about either state secrets or national security.

\

Literally a hero

BRAVO YOU ARE THE NEW CATO

[HoreTore]

\

Literally a hero

BRAVO YOU ARE THE NEW CATO

"Hero" is a bourgeouise concept. I just don't give a crap.

Also, if I can help in any way to make life a little more miserable for our boys in green, I will.

[Greyblades]

:snip:

Well considering there are a couple of congressmen trying to get him the death penalty he might have a point, solitary as it may be.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Awww Europeans are upset because I offered a wider perspective? Adorable.

Before any more of you question my grasp of history, maybe you should re-read my post. Obviously Europe has never been a centralized state, but economically and culturally it has been Europe against the World since the Romans. To think of yourselves as independent countries is silly--you're only individual within the context of an untouchable and separate Europe. And everything the USA did is European, obviously. The USA is what Europe would look like if you all spoke the same language and submitted to the same government.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

It must be irritating having those people from accross the sea tell you that your nations are so small, weak, and powerless that we spy on them at will. That their customs and cultures are laughable. That their nations aren't even nations!

Hmmm...

Ah - so the same is true of the Near East, yes?

Until very recently (post renaissance) there was no "world" beyond Europe, the Near East, Middle East and Far East. You're engaging in reductio ad absurdem because the fact that Europeans either fought against each other or together against the Muslims and Mongols is a matter of religion and the range of our ships.

As soon as we were able, we started fighting everyone else, and we exported our wars and our individuality - that why South America is different to North America.

[Montmorency]

Europe has always acted as a whole against the world in national affairs, despite itself.

Just so things don't get muddled: your assertion is that European states individually have no meaningful extra-European foreign policy?

Where Europe has acted as a group, it acted that way because of its culture and its people, not its boundaries or borders.

Geography plays no small role in shaping culture...

[HoreTore]

Remember that you're discussing mostly with brits here, GC. The british fool themselves into thinking that they are somehow different from the rest of Europe, and worship their own imagined uniqueness. I'd say that actually goes beyond what you yanks put into the concept of american exceptionalism.

Talk to someone from central europe, and they'll agree with you. I'm willing to bet that Louis or Adrian would've jumped to your defence if they had been around.

[Rhyfelwyr]

GC I'm not sure what you mean when you say that "Europe has acted as a group". Outside relatively modern innovations like the EU, there has been little cooperation between the kingdoms, states, nation states etc of Europe throughout history. Of course the idea of a homogenous nation state is more an ideal than a reality, but it has been quite close to reality at times in the past. And even besides nation states, for all the various other forms of statehood that have existed in Europe, there has not been any sort of political entity at the European-level.

Maybe you had things like the Berlin Conference or the Congress of Vienna in mind? I'll grant that these were significant, but such organisation never developed into an institutionalized political process, and is hardly outside the norm for international cooperation.

It also seems a bit odd for an American to mock Europe for its heritage. Natives aside, of course.

[Montmorency]

Of course it does, but geographical boundaries change.

Over millions of years. (You know what I'm talking about.)

[HopAlongBunny]

But you're addressing one point-of-view. Mainly that of the elite that bemoans and derides "local" culture and mourns the passing of Rome.
Granted, the bestowal of a common MacCulture would simplify a lot of problems, but it would also make everywhere the same. Boring I call it.
What does this have to do with Snowden? No idea :p

[The Lurker Below]

Snowden? He's a boring humbug. Here's a guy who sent forth a significant message and then decided to betray the message by seeking a personal spotlight. Most heroes seek no personal glory. He has not lent credibility to his message, he has detracted from it.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Its not that hard to get. I'm talking about cultural conventions. European culture has been distinct and combative since the early middle ages. God, European civilization, the Roman Legacy, and a total disdain for lesser peoples' is what made the Europeans unique. All the little subdivisions are beside the point, in a global context.

I'm not pointing fingers or trying to make you guys look bad--after all, most Americans won't even admit that we're just the left-overs from that mind-set.

Euoprean culture has only ever exited in a very vague and loose sense. It's like talking about African culture, Asian culture or the like. I hardly see how God can be a focal point of European culture, since in broad terms we share a monotheistic God with most of the world, and in the more particular sense, we've butchered ourselves because we've got different ideas about him. The Roman legacy is not directly relevant to Germany, Eastern Europe, or the UK. As for racism/xenophobia, it is more a human trait than anything, as evidenced by the fact that the majority of the world is pretty racist.

So I believe that all these things that you say make Europeans unique, in fact do no such thing, and half the time aren't even shared 'European' traits in the first place.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Wishful thinking. You can say "Not us, look at them!" all you like, but the fact is that only Europe (yes, Europe, not just the individual countries) colonized the whole world. That means you need to look at yourselves separately.

Wishful thinking has nothing to do with it, since I don't feel the need to defend the actions of past Europeans. Speaking of personal motivations here, sometimes you strike me as having a bit of a white-guilt complex. It's one thing to acknowledge various wrongs committed by European powers; quite another to suggest that European are uniquely evil or malicious, far less that it should be a defining point of their identity.

That Europe should play such a significant role in colonization is due to demographic and technological factors that were particular to the time centuries ago. We've gone through a lot since then so you can't just presume that we have retained the same mind-set.

Other peoples/states around the world have colonized just as aggressively as 'Europeans', as far as their circumstances have allowed. Consider Arabs/Muslims on the southern fringes of the Sahel or down the East Coast of Africa. Chinese in Tibet, Xinjiang, Indonesia, or indeed modern day Africa. Imperial Japan. 'Americans' in Liberia. Pagan Vikings in Vinland. Altaic peoples in Russia, the Ukraine and the Caucasus. Indians in Kenya, South Africa, Fiji, Guyana and the like.

You need to stop hating yourself.

[a completely inoffensive name]

So on the original topic. It has become apparent that in order for a whistleblower to not have his ego get in the way, he should release his information to the proper authorities who will then properly clean it of the most crucial stuff that the administration will call "state secrets", then proceed to sit at home and not do any interviews and wait for his inevitable arrest and execution/life imprisonment in a camp in Cuba.

THAT WILL GET THE PEOPLE ORGANIZED TO FIGHT THE GOOD FIGHT

[Rhyfelwyr]

The only hate I have is for narrow-mindedness. I don't believe anyone alive today can be held responsible for the actions of their deranged ancestors--so don't worry about that.

Still, you keep missing my point. What separates European colonial adventures from other nations' "colonial" adventures is the sheer scale--and more importantly, that it formed the modern world we see today. Europeans act like its all incidental, but I believe the mass psychology behind the European ascension to ultimate power in the world deserves to be studied from a more critical perspective.

Well I think I could be forgiven for missing your point, since I don't think you've been consistent with how you have expressed yourself. Here you say your point is that Europeans' colonization efforts were unique in their scale, and yet previously, you seemed to indicate that what made them unique and particularly damnable in your eyes was their motivation. As you said in your first response to me:

God, European civilization, the Roman Legacy, and a total disdain for lesser peoples' is what made the Europeans unique.

So, which point were you driving at? Scale or motivation?

If you had said at first that the main issue was their scale, I would never have contested it and gave those examples of other nations/peoples colonizing various places.

But, regardless of whether or not it is your main point, I still take issue with these ideas you have on what drove European colonization. Of course, what motivated settlement of Massachusetts was entirely different from what motivated the Scramble for Africa. But I think they both share one thing in common - that they were not motivated by a belief that, as you put it, all other peoples "had to be crushed underfoot".

[The Lurker Below]

Its not that hard to get. I'm talking about cultural conventions. European culture has been distinct and combative since the early middle ages. God, European civilization, the Roman Legacy, and a total disdain for lesser peoples' is what made the Europeans unique. All the little subdivisions are beside the point, in a global context.

I'm not pointing fingers or trying to make you guys look bad--after all, most Americans won't even admit that we're just the left-overs from that mind-set.

Have you been playing Fortress America? It's pretty old and never was popular, so I suspect not, but your world-view reminds me of that games central theme.

I guess only Europeans had the influence of religion, Romans, and racial superiority.

[Lemur]

All cultures are traditonally insular and distrustful of "barbarians" but only the Europeans decided they all had to be crushed underfoot.

One of my favorite takes on this subject:

[Fisherking]

Only Europeans had the balls to take the notion of "We're the best." and actually go with it. All cultures are traditonally insular and distrustful of "barbarians" but only the Europeans decided they all had to be crushed underfoot.

I refer you once again to China. They rounded the Horn of Africa with a fleet larger and better Armed than the Spanish Armada centuries later. They made a choice not to colonize or project their power across the whole world. Be real here, Europe... you're special. Admit it.

And what does any of this have to do with America spying on Americans and the rest of the world?

Are you blaming Europe? Have you gone all Euro-phobic on us? Is it time for your meds?

[Montmorency]

GC, can you guarantee that all European states had substantial colonizing ventures ongoing at some point, or that no autonomous Christian-European state ever allied with a Muslim power?

[Greyblades]

Remember that you're discussing mostly with brits here, GC. The british fool themselves into thinking that they are somehow different from the rest of Europe, and worship their own imagined uniqueness. I'd say that actually goes beyond what you yanks put into the concept of american exceptionalism.

There is little delusion, merely the acknowledgment that the anglo saxon culture has ruled the world for a quarter millenium and, assuming the americans dont become suicidal, (Though, considering the recent news, suicidal america might not be far off.) it will continue forever now the world has entered nuclear stasis. Our ancestors left us 1st place and, while the current generation is yet to live up to it, the pride is enough to propel us above you savages.

Tounge planted firmly in cheek, BTW.

[Montmorency]

They were just tribes. How we love them so much is more due to the way they've been idolized by European historians than due to any innate virtues.

You didn't really answer the question...

but in the end they all did it with the same mindset and with the same convictions about what the world owed them. You can't possibly dispute that.

The question, rather, is how you could possibly support that?!