Edward Snowden, Hero or Traitor?

[Fragony]

He didn't put anyone in danger like Assange did, he just revealed something that is worth worrying about. He deserves nothing but respect

[Fisherking]

The reason that these programs are seen as legal is because there is no way to challenge them.

As the programs are secret, courts, including the Supreme Court, will not grant standing to anyone bringing suite. They can not know what is in the law because it is secret.

Just how cool is that?

[Fisherking]

While this incident points up that the call data and not the calls are being logged, don’t fool your self. Calls are being recorded.

Perhaps the only ones kept are the ones with keywords in the conversations that trigger a response but all are monitored.

The call data would allow them to link conversations to phone records to know, more or less, just who made the call.

I am sure there are worse things going on, and yes, your computer spies on you too. This is only the tip of a great iceberg.

[ICantSpellDawg]

The US government insists that what it is doing is legal. Classic criminal response; they've rationalized activity that is an obvious affront to law to people not involved in the conspiracy. It is not legal just because they say it is. General warrants without reasonable suspicion to consume all personal effects and spy on people are barred by the constitution. Judges who have signed off on this are criminally corrupt. When government actions break the law, people informing the American people are whistleblowers. Bradley Manning was a traitor, but I support anyone stealing information from our corrupt government for non-terrorist or extra-national related purposes

Americans have an obligation to betray the political elite and the media that supports them. There are 2 parties in Washington. The people and the enemies of the people.

[Fragony]

The US government insists that what it is doing is legal. Classic criminal response; they've rationalized activity that is an obvious affront to law to people not involved in the conspiracy. It is not legal just because they say it is. General warrants without reasonable suspicion to consume all personal effects and spy on people are barred by the constitution. Judges who have signed off on this are criminally corrupt. When government actions break the law, people informing the American people are whistleblowers. Bradley Manning was a traitor, but I support anyone stealing information from our corrupt government for non-terrorist or extra-national related purposes

Americans have an obligation to betray the political elite and the media that supports them. There are 2 parties in Washington. The people and the enemies of the people.

Too easy, let them explain how it is still legal if they do it internationally.

[Husar]

Too easy, let them explain how it is still legal if they do it internationally.

Like they care...

As the only superpower, they alone define what is legal internationally, that's why they stay out of the hague and other international institutions. Just look at how Obama said they only spy on foreigners. He can easily say that because he only cares about Americans and the opinions of anyone outside don't really matter.

With such attitudes it's really not surprising that the amount of goodwill towards the USA has plummeted in other countries...

If my own government collects data about me that's one thing, but if the USA does that's a completely different thing because I have absolutely no influence on government and policies there. If you want my data, let me vote in your elections.

No data collection without representation!

[Montmorency]

notions of disentanglement

A nation that constitutes a quarter of the planet's GDP could never practice such a thing.

Travel back in time and help the Confederacy to win, so that in the 20th century North America comes out pretty weak. It's the only way.

[rvg]

Like they care...

As the only superpower, they alone define what is legal internationally, that's why they stay out of the hague and other international institutions. Just look at how Obama said they only spy on foreigners. He can easily say that because he only cares about Americans and the opinions of anyone outside don't really matter.

We is after all an American president. What did you expect him to say?

With such attitudes it's really not surprising that the amount of goodwill towards the USA has plummeted in other countries...

B-but it's O-B-A-M-A. Isn't he a godlike figure in Europe? Perhaps we need to vote in Sara Palin, so that you guys have something real to complain about.

If my own government collects data about me that's one thing, but if the USA does that's a completely different thing because I have absolutely no influence on government and policies there. If you want my data, let me vote in your elections.

Nuh-uh. But, if your government decides to spy on Americans, please do. I wouldn't mind one bit. Not my government, not my country, not my place to say what they can or cannot do.

[Husar]

To be fair, we stay out of the Hague and other international conventions because they run counter to our founding principle of not getting entangled, and not letting foreigners dictate our principles. Quite frankly, I approve.

Prism runs counter to my policies, so where can I opt out of prism? I didn't vote for the party that established prism and neither did I vote for the party that kept prism and there is no other party that I could vote for that would do away with prism? I'm basically spied on by not my government and there is nothing I can democratically do against it. Does that mean Obama is a dictator to me and I have the right to form a well-armed militia to overthrow him? I'd call them Al Queda, sounds nice.

[d'Arthez]

No data collection without representation!

01010111 01100101 00100000 01100001 01110010 01100101 00100000 01101000 01100001 01110000 01110000 01111001 00100000 01110100 01101111 00100000 01101001 01100111 01101110 01101111 01110010 01100101 00100000 01111001 01101111 01110101 01110010 00100000 01100100 01100101 01101101 01100001 01101110 01100100 01110011 00101110 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000

Happy now?

[TinCow]

Assange is a hero. Manning is a traitor. Snowden is a whistleblower. Get it right.

I can buy that Manning is a traitor because he was a Soldier, and swore an Oath, and all that good stuff. Snowden on the other hand was a civilian working for a domestic security agency--the sort of agency that needs whistleblowers the most. I can give two s less what his motives are, whistleblowing is a good thing when you're talking about clandestine domestic security. To consider this guy a traitor we have to put the NSA on the same level as the military. We have to put his non-disclosure agreements on par with the Soldier's oath. I find that a terrifying glimpse into the psychology of the government's bureaucracy.

This is basically my view as well (minus the Assange bit). Manning also just vomited up reams of information, the vast majority of which did not show any wrongdoing by the US, and thus endangered US policy, relations, and possibly lives for no whistleblowing purposes whatsoever. Regardless of whether he exposed some wrongdoing with some of his data, releasing the rest of it was inexcusable. I will not shed a single tear if he gets life in prison.

Snowden is significantly different. He actively selected out the information that he felt was necessary to inform the public about a serious issue. He released only the information that was needed to cover that issue and held back all other information that could have endangered US interests or lives. In addition, he released that information through sources that themselves then did a second round of editing to ensure that the absolute minimum amount of information necessary was released into the public. That is someone who cares a great deal about correcting a problem while doing as little harm as possible to our nation and our people. I hope they just leave the fellow alone, he's not likely to cause any more damage in the future anyway.