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    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Edward Snowden, Hero or Traitor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube View Post
    The EU has been a single entity since the concept of Christendom emerged. You're all just so in love with the combative histories of your different little states that you refuse to see it for what it is. I am willing to admit that, at this point, I could be justifiably accused of being persnickety about semantics but the vehemence with which Europeans oppose this notion is just great. You don't see it at all?
    I see how you're drawing this conclusion - but you fail to appreciate that the convergence of European culture is VERY modern outside the elite.

    You need to look at, for example, the differences between our legal systems, our attitudes to law and order, our gender-roles.

    Two examples:

    1. Italian Courts - they are, from a Germanic perspective, utterly laughable. All the accused has to do is make sure the trial and subsequent appeals drag on until the expiration date and he gets off, no punishment. The most shocking part, from a Germanic perspective, is that Italians are ok with that. Beating the system, from criminal law to taxes, is a fundamental part of Italian culture. Likewise - the relationships of kinship and clientia are more important than keeping your word. Something I found out when I smashed down a door in a hostel in Rome (don't ask), the owner told me he'd send me the bill (never did) that if he called the carpenter he would say he'd come tomorrow, but he might not come until next week because his brother might have a job for him or.... etc.

    2. Democracy - is not a universal European virtue, historically, England has had a parliament of the "Commons" for a long time, which has always had a hand in government. France has vacillated between warring Dukedoms and absolute monarchy, the various Italian City-States have had varying constitutions, some recognisably democratic, others autocracies, the Papal States were a theocracy....

    Contrast this with your US - where every state has the same basic organisation, same basic legal system.

    We share common cultural elements - aside from that we are distinct peoples, the very fact that we do speak different languages demonstrates how different we are, how we are naturally divergent.

    You were a soldier, so I would imagine you've spent at least some time in Europe, but I don't think you grasp how very different this Continent is to the US.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."

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