Dutch on islam

[Fragony]

I won't blame you if you are fed up with me posting about islam and my disgust of it.

But here are some numbers, I absolutily will agree that he is a gun for hire when it comes to polls should that be your argument http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=92d_137026517 but there is no countering for the moment.

- A majority of 55 percent favors stopping immigration from Islamic countries.
- 63 percent say: no new mosques.
- 72 percent favor a constitutional ban on Sharia law in the Netherlands.
- 64 percent say that the arrival of immigrants from Islamic countries has not been beneficial to the Netherlands.
- Nearly three-quarters — 73 percent — of all Dutch see a relationship between Islam and the recent terror acts in Boston, London and Paris.

That are a lot of people who are more extreme than I am because I don't mind mosques, and I don't mind people from Islamic countries settling here.

- 64 percent say that the arrival of immigrants from Islamic countries has not been beneficial to the Netherlands. <- that

I agree with that but you already knew that, and keep in mind that most must have replied 'no opinion'

[Fragony]

Failpad hates edit-button, it just doesn't react. Of course I meant the remaining 36% said 'no opinion'

[spankythehippo]

A few bad apples spoil the bunch. Back in 1944, most people associated Germans with Nazi's. Then the Nazi's died but the Germans didn't. When the terrorists die (i.e. blow themselves up), we'll be left with normal sane Muslims. I think.

[johnhughthom]

It's not necessarily just terrorism which led to the poll results, I don't think there have been any Islamic terror attacks in Holland? The failure, often due to a complete lack of effort, of a signifacant minority to integrate into Dutch society and expectation that Dutch society should change to accomodate them are more likely to be the main reasons. Certainly when I lived there, 13 or so years ago, this was the opinion of a lot of native Dutch I spoke to.

[Fragony]

There is a reason a lot of Dutch think like this and it has nothing to do with terrorism

[Hax]

No, it has more to do with the failure of policy (in fact, I'd say the presence of policy) where it concerns multiculturalism.

[Papewaio]

Immigrants take at least three generations to integrate and be integrated into society.

Italians & Greeks, then Vietnamese boat people, then Turks and Lebanese.

First generation are grateful but resentful at the same time. Second tends just to be resentful and any who fall though the cracks go into crime. Third generation seems to be blended.

[Fragony]

No, it has more to do with the failure of policy (in fact, I'd say the presence of policy) where it concerns multiculturalism.

We could just be in total agreement

[KrooK]

So Fragony .... do you like muslims or not. Tell it simple. And I think there is 100% connection beetwen muslims and muslim terrorists.
100% of muslim terrorists are muslims. Without muslims there would be no muslim terrorists.

[Fragony]

So Fragony .... do you like muslims or not. Tell it simple. And I think there is 100% connection beetwen muslims and muslim terrorists.
100% of muslim terrorists are muslims. Without muslims there would be no muslim terrorists.

100% of muslim terrorists muslim, tell me it isn't so

[Strike For The South]

A few bad apples spoil the bunch. Back in 1944, most people associated Germans with Nazi's. Then the Nazi's died but the Germans didn't. When the terrorists die (i.e. blow themselves up), we'll be left with normal sane Muslims. I think.

Well no. There is not a finite amount of terrorists out there. By all means if the Dutch want to be that restrictive, they are more than welcome to do it. Japan hates foreigners, allows no immigratioin and no one gets on their case about it. It's this bastard child of the whites man burden that guilt trips Europe into thinking they owe these people anything.

[Vuk]

Well no. There is not a finite amount of terrorists out there. By all means if the Dutch want to be that restrictive, they are more than welcome to do it. Japan hates foreigners, allows no immigratioin and no one gets on their case about it. It's this bastard child of the whites man burden that guilt trips Europe into thinking they owe these people anything.

Holy crap on a stick with icecream! I don't believe this! OH THE SHAME!!
I...actually...agree...with...........the troll! I think I will walk about behind my house and blow my brains out now.

[Zarakas]

You are either a christian country or not. If the latter, then people with different religions should be welcomed.

The price of free speech etc.

[PanzerJaeger]

You are either a christian country or not. If the latter, then people with different religions should be welcomed.

The price of free speech etc.

There is a big difference between civil rights and an open borders immigration policy.

[spankythehippo]

Well no. There is not a finite amount of terrorists out there. By all means if the Dutch want to be that restrictive, they are more than welcome to do it. Japan hates foreigners, allows no immigratioin and no one gets on their case about it. It's this bastard child of the whites man burden that guilt trips Europe into thinking they owe these people anything.

Japan can get away with it, since they're rejecting everybody. If the Dutch stops the immigration of Muslims, then there obviously will be a backlash from the existing Dutch Muslims and the Muslims abroad. It's the fact that they're stopping a certain group of people, not people in general i.e. Japan.

If they pass a bill to stop Muslims entering the country, I'm pretty sure the terrorists will hear about it. This will only paint a target on the Netherlands. I'm surprised there hasn't been any major terrorist activities in France, after the hijab ban. It's only a matter of time. You can't talk sense into a deluded idiotic fanatic.

People should be able to live where ever the **** they want. Just don't be a dick, and we'll be fine. Unfortunately, many people are dicks, so it is not fine. *sigh*

[Fragony]

Extremism is as welcome as the inquisition for most Dutch muslims, it's just that multiculturalists insists to fascilitate it and call it diversity or tolerance. De facto there is no problem with muslims in the Netherlands really

[Papewaio]

Unfortunately, many people are dicks, so it is not fine. *sigh*

Yeah, about 50% of the population are dicks. And almost 100% of terrorists have them too.

So should we ban all male immigration?

[KrooK]

In Poland we have no problem with muslims at the moment. Maybe because there is not many of them. However I'm for restrictions for muslims.
They have to respect polish culture and laws. Otherwise short and simple word will be used for them - "W O N".

[rickinator9]

I would rather just have them learn the language before they enter our wonderful country so they show some dedication before stealing our riches and women! Abandoning their faith, which preaches violence against anyone not of their faith: us, is a plus ,of course.

[The Stranger]

theyre all brainwashed by their ideology right? lets just close all borders, call all soldiers home, close down all foreign based companies and enjoy a nice dutch summer, where autumn starts when winter ends.

[Zarakas]

Question: Has there been examples in history where muslim immigration over time changed the culture and laws etc of a individual country? In other words, the country is now muslim.

If the answer is yes, then, maybe history is repeating itself.

If the answer is no, then the Netherlands and others with muslim immigration need not worry.

[KrooK]

Albania? Bosnia & Hercegowina maybe?

[Papewaio]

Albania? Bosnia & Hercegowina maybe?

Even if you didn't lose a person taking over those countries would be a Pyrrhic victory.

[Hax]

Then again, those were conquered by military force. The comparison doesn't really work in this case.

[The Stranger]

indonesia, many countries in africa. Never conquered by a military force yet the muslims are now a dominant political factor.

however, this is nothing unique to islam/muslim culture or whatever. Christianity did the same thing in the Roman Empire, and "dark age" europe. Wether it is unique to the religions of the book? It might be, im not sure, i'd have to check into it some more. A possible comparison might be communism, even though most of them became politically dominant by revolution, it is not really a foreign conquerer. The ideology behind the french and american revolution would also count then. Nazism and facism maybe, although it wasnt long lasting.

[Zarakas]

Famous Gadafi quote;

"We have 50 million Muslims in Europe. There are signs that Allah will grant Islam victory in Europe—without swords, without guns, without conquest—will turn it into a Muslim continent within a few decades."

Is there some truth in this? Was Gadafi a wise man or a fool? (or both)

Is there a similarity with Spanish Islamic history. The spread of Islam from Cordoba to most of Spain, until it was expelled by war.

[Fragony]

The South of Spain was conquered in military campaign, can't really be compared

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Famous Gadafi quote;

"We have 50 million Muslims in Europe. There are signs that Allah will grant Islam victory in Europe—without swords, without guns, without conquest—will turn it into a Muslim continent within a few decades."

Is there some truth in this? Was Gadafi a wise man or a fool? (or both)

Is there a similarity with Spanish Islamic history. The spread of Islam from Cordoba to most of Spain, until it was expelled by war.

The spread of Islam by war, remember.

I think it's unlikely Islam will become dominant in Europe - we are seeing a rise in "spirituality" now that the post-WWII generation's children are grown up. In the post-war era a lack of belief, at least strong belief, was considered a moral good in and of itself - secularism was one of the initial goals of the pan-European project - Catholic - Protestant - Jew. After all - beliefs of one kind or another had fueled the Nazi's.

However, that time has passed - the old institutions persist but they are no longer driving social forces. Despite this, if people in Europe want solace, they'll go to a Church (unless they're Jewish), or they'll opt for something safely exotic that they can't understand - like Buddhism. I'm not saying Buddhism is incoherent - but "being a Buddhist" is a thing for the yuppy, a way of being "spiritual" without being seen as a religious whacko.

Islam, by contrast, is a very threatening religion - it's the religion of the people who destroyed the Roman Empire, conquered North Africa and completely re-drew the cultural map. It has a deity very like Almighty God, but just a little too different - no more Christmas and no more booze. I don't see it swamping secular Europe.

After all - it was briefly in vogue in the latter 19th Century, it really didn't take off then either.

[The Stranger]

by roman empire i take it you mean the byzantines?

[Papewaio]

I thought we had ready established Rome fell from within and out to Christians.

Also a civilisation who's economy relies on conquering to prosper deserves to be conquered. Live by the sword, die by the sword.