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    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Latour, Kristeva, Derrida, Baudrillard, etc

    Does anyone here have knowledge of any of these four, or their many brethren? If so, could you explain what their theories are all about? My impression is that all they've produced are countless volumes of unscientific complete bull. Does anyone want to correct me on that?
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

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    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Latour, Kristeva, Derrida, Baudrillard, etc

    I just know that Latour is apparently a middle east expert, Baudrillard I've heard before but about her and the other two I have no idea.


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    Default Re: Latour, Kristeva, Derrida, Baudrillard, etc

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    I just know that Latour is apparently a middle east expert
    That's a first. Never heard that before. You sure we're talking about the same Bruno Latour?
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

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    Horse Archer Senior Member Sarmatian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Latour, Kristeva, Derrida, Baudrillard, etc

    Unless they plan to overthrow Obama, why do you want to talk about them in the Backroom?

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    Default Re: Latour, Kristeva, Derrida, Baudrillard, etc

    There are likely more competent people than I on these forums, but I know a thing or two about Derrida.

    Derrida is a post-modernist philosopher, whose ideas of deconstructionism focused on analysing reccurent elements within any form of text. The term "deconstructionism" refers to the attempt to show that terminologies and concepts that we often assume to have a certain meaning, have no intrinsic value on and of their own account.
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    Default Re: Latour, Kristeva, Derrida, Baudrillard, etc

    Quote Originally Posted by Hax View Post
    terminologies and concepts that we often assume to have a certain meaning, have no intrinsic value on and of their own account.
    Does he go further(ie making claims about the meaning of actual knowledge, not just terms) than that, like Latour does? And if he does, what is your opinion of the validity of such thought?
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

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    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Latour, Kristeva, Derrida, Baudrillard, etc

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    That's a first. Never heard that before. You sure we're talking about the same Bruno Latour?
    No, I'm sure you're talking about the wrong guy. Peter Scholl-Latour is the one I mean.


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    One of the Undutchables Member The Stranger's Avatar
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    Default Re: Latour, Kristeva, Derrida, Baudrillard, etc

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    Does anyone here have knowledge of any of these four, or their many brethren? If so, could you explain what their theories are all about? My impression is that all they've produced are countless volumes of unscientific complete bull. Does anyone want to correct me on that?
    im reading about Derrida and Baudrillard atm, although it is their aesthetics mainly. I know about about derridas deconstruction, also related to political theory.

    I know a tiny bit about latour, although i have friends who know much more about him and a professor who works in the same area of philosophy as him and are "friends".

    if you have a less vague/more serious question, perhaps i can help you or pass the question on for you.
    Last edited by The Stranger; 06-15-2013 at 13:19.

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    Default Re: Latour, Kristeva, Derrida, Baudrillard, etc

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmatian View Post
    So, they want to get Putin, right?

    C'mon, throw me a bone here.
    Actually, this is the reason I've been reading these, Sarmatian. It first started when Latour was awarded the Ludwig Holberg-prize(major irony alert) earlier this year. Fast forward a couple of days, and the old and bitter professor Jon Elster publishes a chronicle in aftenposten, demanding the prize is shut down as it has disgraced itself by giving awards to charlatans(Kristeva, Jameson and Latour). This sparked several other chronicles, either attacking Elster or joining his attack on Latour.

    These were published on the net as well, with open commentaries. Now, these are usually cesspits of vulgarities from "the facebook-conservatives"(derogatory norwegian term for the right-wing nonsense manifesting itself on the net). On these articles, however, it was completely silent. I found this fact both interesting and hilarious. What we had was a high temperature debate between Marxists attacking each other for politically correct science. You'd think that would make any right-winger firing on all cylinders, yet it was completely silent. One of the chroniclers even joined the comment section, yet no right-winger reared its head, it was just a collection of various academics. Apparently, the debate was conducted at a level too intelligent for your average islamophobe, and they're all too uneducated to even know what the Marxists were talking about...

    Oh, and several of them were of the dangerous cultural-Marxist flavour as well...

    Quote Originally Posted by The Stranger View Post
    im reading about Derrida and Baudrillard atm
    First of all: you have my deepest condolences.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Stranger View Post
    if you have a less vague/more serious question, perhaps i can help you or pass the question on for you.
    Well, as chronic vagueness seems to be a trademark of these writers, you'd think it was appropriate to ask them vague questions...

    But okay, I've got a question which is as concrete as it gets:

    Kristian Bjørkdahl attempted to defend Latour from Elster's criticism. As one example of Latour's worth, he attempted to explain that 2+2=4 is not necessarily true. Rather, 2+2=4 is just a convention that scientists agree on, and represents no fundamental truth(which doesn't seem to exist anyway, but that's another story). 2+2=4 s apparently only true because of the meaning given to "2", "+", etc.

    Now, as I see it, this sounds like a fundamental misunderstanding of what mathematics actually are. So, my question is: is it possible to maintain that 2+2=4 does not represent a fundamental fact without having misunderstood the very basis of what mathematics are?
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

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    Default Re: Latour, Kristeva, Derrida, Baudrillard, etc

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    Actually, this is the reason I've been reading these, Sarmatian. It first started when Latour was awarded the Ludwig Holberg-prize(major irony alert) earlier this year. Fast forward a couple of days, and the old and bitter professor Jon Elster publishes a chronicle in aftenposten, demanding the prize is shut down as it has disgraced itself by giving awards to charlatans(Kristeva, Jameson and Latour). This sparked several other chronicles, either attacking Elster or joining his attack on Latour.

    These were published on the net as well, with open commentaries. Now, these are usually cesspits of vulgarities from "the facebook-conservatives"(derogatory norwegian term for the right-wing nonsense manifesting itself on the net). On these articles, however, it was completely silent. I found this fact both interesting and hilarious. What we had was a high temperature debate between Marxists attacking each other for politically correct science. You'd think that would make any right-winger firing on all cylinders, yet it was completely silent. One of the chroniclers even joined the comment section, yet no right-winger reared its head, it was just a collection of various academics. Apparently, the debate was conducted at a level too intelligent for your average islamophobe, and they're all too uneducated to even know what the Marxists were talking about...

    Oh, and several of them were of the dangerous cultural-Marxist flavour as well...



    First of all: you have my deepest condolences.



    Well, as chronic vagueness seems to be a trademark of these writers, you'd think it was appropriate to ask them vague questions...

    But okay, I've got a question which is as concrete as it gets:

    Kristian Bjørkdahl attempted to defend Latour from Elster's criticism. As one example of Latour's worth, he attempted to explain that 2+2=4 is not necessarily true. Rather, 2+2=4 is just a convention that scientists agree on, and represents no fundamental truth(which doesn't seem to exist anyway, but that's another story). 2+2=4 s apparently only true because of the meaning given to "2", "+", etc.

    Now, as I see it, this sounds like a fundamental misunderstanding of what mathematics actually are. So, my question is: is it possible to maintain that 2+2=4 does not represent a fundamental fact without having misunderstood the very basis of what mathematics are?
    what ive read of baudrillard, your condolences are much appreciated, Derrida is pretty interesting stuff tho.

    They no doubt would have no problem with answering your "vague" question :P but as a student, and im not really into that type of philosophy/sociology/post-structuralism, so i need some more stuff to work with

    As to your question, that is a good question and i dont know if i have sufficient knowledge of latours work to give the answer it deserves, but i will think about it a bit and read up a lil bit, and ill come back to you about it later. I assume i will be playing the devils advocate :P

    You are a math teacher right? Could you perhaps post or pm me in short (and in a comprehensible way for a theorethical math noob) what you think the basis of mathematics is? that would give me something to cling onto :P
    Last edited by The Stranger; 06-15-2013 at 21:00.

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    Default Re: Latour, Kristeva, Derrida, Baudrillard, etc

    As I have understood it, Latour and his ilk goes on a wild chase on the "inner meaning"(or whatever term you want to use) of the statement "2+2=4", and claims that there is no fundamental truth in that statement(nor is there such a thing anywhere).

    This is a fundamental error. "2+2=4" is a an abstraction of a fundamental truth which can be represented in the real world(like all maths are), the truth that if you have 2 apples and then get 2 more, you end up with 4 apples. It just doesn't get any more fundamental than that, and I see absolutely no way that anyone can claim that is not so without being a charlatan who conceals his nonsense with fancy words.

    The way we represent "2+2=4" is irrelevant and can be(and has been) represented in a zillion ways. The fundamental truth behind it, however, is set in stone and cannot be questioned in any way.


    Either I'm missing something in their argument, or all of those guys are hacks. Jon Elster seems to think it's the latter.


    EDIT: I can give you another one too though: Latour has stated that there is no difference between a description and an explanation, and that "if a description needs an explanation, it's a bad description". How can such a statement be justified, as all science rests on the clear division between the description of a singular event and the explanation through general rules?
    Last edited by HoreTore; 06-15-2013 at 21:25.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

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    Default Re: Latour, Kristeva, Derrida, Baudrillard, etc

    the truth that if you have 2 apples and then get 2 more, you end up with 4 apples. It just doesn't get any more fundamental than that, and I see absolutely no way that anyone can claim that is not so without being a charlatan who conceals his nonsense with fancy words.
    The way we represent "2+2=4" is irrelevant and can be(and has been) represented in a zillion ways. The fundamental truth behind it, however, is set in stone and cannot be questioned in any way.
    Those are some strong ontological and epistemological assumptions. If these Continentals are coming from an anti-realist angle, then maybe they're not so bad after all?

    EDIT: I can give you another one too though: Latour has stated that there is no difference between a description and an explanation, and that "if a description needs an explanation, it's a bad description". How can such a statement be justified, as all science rests on the clear division between the description of a singular event and the explanation through general rules?
    I do know that one Continental view is that science "can only describe, not explain". Maybe related?

    I've heard that somewhere - who knows - but here's an essay on the subject a quick search found.

    It might be supposed that something is explained when we find its cause, but an influential 1913 paper by Bertrand Russell had argued that "the word `cause' is so inextricably bound up with misleading associations as to make its complete extrusion from the philosophical vocabulary desirable" 2. This left philosophers like Wittgenstein with only one candidate for a distinction between explanation and description, one that is teleological, defining an explanation as a statement of the purpose of the thing explained.
    To be honest, I don't quite get Latour, in light of this. Maybe he means that descriptions are teleological too? Or as teleology must be abandoned there can no longer be a distinction between "explanation" and "description"?

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    THE TROUBLESOME WORD "fundamental" can't be left out of this definition, because deduction itself doesn't carry a sense of direction; it often works both ways. The best example I know is provided by the relation between the laws of Newton and the laws of Kepler. Everyone knows that Newton discovered not only a law that says the force of gravity decreases with the inverse square of the distance, but also a law of motion that tells how bodies move under the influence of any sort of force. Somewhat earlier, Kepler had described three laws of planetary motion: planets move on ellipses with the sun at the focus; the line from the sun to any planet sweeps over equal areas in equal times; and the squares of the periods (the times it takes the various planets to go around their orbits) are proportional to the cubes of the major diameters of the planets' orbits.

    It is usual to say that Newton's laws explain Kepler's. But historically Newton's law of gravitation was deduced from Kepler's laws of planetary motion. Edmund Halley, Christopher Wren, and Robert Hooke all used Kepler's relation between the squares of the periods and the cubes of the diameters (taking the orbits as circles) to deduce an inverse square law of gravitation, and then Newton extended the argument to elliptical orbits. Today, of course, when you study mechanics you learn to deduce Kepler's laws from Newton's laws, not vice versa. We have a deep sense that Newton's laws are more fundamental than Kepler's laws, and it is in that sense that Newton's laws explain Kepler's laws rather than the other way around. But it's not easy to put a precise meaning to the idea that one physical principle is more fundamental than another.

    It is tempting to say that more fundamental means more comprehensive. Perhaps the best-known attempt to capture the meaning that scientists give to explanation was that of Carl Hempel. In his well-known 1948 article written with Paul Oppenheim, he remarked that "the explanation of a general regularity consists in subsuming it under another more comprehensive regularity, under a more general law". 4 But this doesn't remove the difficulty. One might say for instance that Newton's laws govern not only the motions of planets but also the tides on Earth, the falling of fruits from trees, and so on, while Kepler's laws deal with the more limited context of planetary motions. But that isn't strictly true. Kepler's laws, to the extent that classical mechanics applies at all, also govern the motion of electrons around the nucleus, where gravity is irrelevant. So there is a sense in which Kepler's laws have a generality that Newton's laws don't have. Yet it would feel absurd to say that Kepler's laws explain Newton's, while everyone (except perhaps a philosophical purist) is comfortable with the statement that Newton's laws explain Kepler's.

    This example of Newton's and Kepler's laws is a bit artificial, because there is no real doubt about which is the explanation of the other. In other cases the question of what explains what is more difficult, and more important. Here is an example. When quantum mechanics is applied to Einstein's general theory of relativity one finds that the energy and momentum in a gravitational field come in bundles known as gravitons, particles that have zero mass, like the particle of light, the photon, but have a spin equal to two (that is, twice the spin of the photon). On the other hand, it has been shown that any particle whose mass is zero and whose spin is equal to two will behave just the way that gravitons do in general relativity, and that the exchange of these gravitons will produce just the gravitational effects that are predicted by general relativity. Further, it is a general prediction of string theory that there must exist particles of mass zero and spin two. So is the existence of the graviton explained by the general theory of relativity, or is the general theory of relativity explained by the existence of the graviton? We don't know. On the answer to this question hinges a choice of our vision of the future of physics - will it be based on space-time geometry, as in general relativity, or on some theory like string theory that predicts the existence of gravitons?

    THE IDEA OF EXPLANATION as deduction also runs into trouble when we consider physical principles that seem to transcend the principles from which they have been deduced. This is especially true of thermodynamics, the science of heat and temperature and entropy. After the laws of thermodynamics had been formulated in the nineteenth century, Ludwig Boltzmann succeeded in deducing these laws from statistical mechanics, the physics of macroscopic samples of matter that are composed of large numbers of individual molecules. Boltzmann's explanation of thermodynamics in terms of statistical mechanics became widely accepted, even though it was resisted by Max Planck, Ernst Zermelo, and a few other physicists who held on to the older view of the laws of thermodynamics as free-standing physical principles, as fundamental as any others. But then the work of Jacob Bekenstein and Stephen Hawking in the twentieth century showed that thermodynamics also applies to black holes, and not because they are composed of many molecules, but simply because they have a surface from which no particle or light ray can ever emerge. So thermodynamics seems to transcend the statistical mechanics of many-body systems from which it was originally deduced.

    Nevertheless, I would argue that there is a sense in which the laws of thermodynamics are not as fundamental as the principles of general relativity or the Standard Model of elementary particles. It is important here to distinguish two different aspects of thermodynamics. On one hand, thermodynamics is a formal system that allows us to deduce interesting consequences from a few simple laws, wherever those laws apply. The laws apply to black holes, they apply to steam boilers, and to many other systems. But they don't apply everywhere. Thermodynamics would have no meaning if applied to a single atom. To find out whether the laws of thermodynamics apply to a particular physical system, you have to ask whether the laws of thermodynamics can be deduced from what you know about that system. Sometimes they can, sometimes they can't. Thermodynamics itself is never the explanation of anything - you always have to ask why thermodynamics applies to whatever system you are studying, and you do this by deducing the laws of thermodynamics from whatever more fundamental principles happen to be relevant to that system.

    In this respect, I don't see much difference between thermodynamics and Euclidean geometry. After all, Euclidean geometry applies in an astonishing variety of contexts. If three people agree that each one will measure the angle between the lines of sight to the other two, and then they get together and add up those angles, the sum will be 180 degrees. And you will get the same 180-degree result for the sum of the angles of a triangle made of steel bars or of pencil lines on a piece of paper. So it may seem that geometry is more fundamental than optics or mechanics. But Euclidean geometry is a formal system of inference based on postulates that may or may not apply in a given situation. As we learned from Einstein's general theory of relativity, the Euclidean system does not apply in gravitational fields, though it is a very good approximation in the relatively weak gravitational field of the earth in which it was developed by Euclid. When we use Euclidean geometry to explain anything in nature we are tacitly relying on general relativity to explain why Euclidean geometry applies in the case at hand.
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    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



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